DUST Search - SMG range

JohnDS Wolf wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

Jack McReady wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

The AR loses more damage against an erratic target than the SMG does because of this.

this logic is dump, please more of that dump logic because these are "good" arguments trololo. you said yourself AR does more damage (even when you take the basic AR stats, the numbers in are favor for the AR) but for some reason you are assuming you miss more often with AR than SMG without any conclusive reason. and the best is how you claim that lower accuracy is an advantage, if you cant keep your aim on the target, maybe learn to aim? your post is also a good indication that you also have no clue how ROF affects the recoil. weapon kick stat of the weapon determines how much your accuracy is impaired for EACH shot and it stacks with itself up to a cap. higher ROF results in faster stacking of weapon kick.

You might want to go back and re-read my post. Particularly the part where I already explained very clearly the exact reasons behind WHY there's a benefit to lower accuracy in CQC.

And kick is a part of the CQC advantage for the SMG, because it helps to further reduce accuracy, thus ensure a better chance of hitting a target that isn't moving predictably.

Or are you claiming to be a high-grade psychic capable of reading the minds of other players in far corners of the world with nothing more than their in-game name to work from? Good luck with that.

missing drops your dps, missing also lower your chances for killing. you are eather right in their face (or back) fireing from the hilt or the luckiest man alive with each bullet hiting the target. Spread is great for groups but sence it takes so much to kill one dude with SMG's, yah, you're idea has a major flaw. It's just not a reliable weapon at any range, sence most weapons can not only kill faster, but can kill groups easyer.


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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 08:51:00 - [1] - Quote Anything from maimum Shotgun range down to point-blank, SMGs will outperform ARs. At the high end of Shotgun range, they beat Shotguns (if you use aimed fire). I've tested this with Toxin vs. Advanced Shotguns and ARs, Weaponry 4 and SMG Ops at 2 on my character. Don't know exact skill stats on the opponents, but they can't possibly have as low Operations for their weapons as I do.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 13:16:00 - [2] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Anything from maimum Shotgun range down to point-blank, SMGs will outperform ARs. At the high end of Shotgun range, they beat Shotguns (if you use aimed fire). I've tested this with Toxin vs. Advanced Shotguns and ARs, Weaponry 4 and SMG Ops at 2 on my character. Don't know exact skill stats on the opponents, but they can't possibly have as low Operations for their weapons as I do. SMG outperform AR YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST! seriously the content of your post is imaginary at its finest SMGs can never outperform the AR at any range because the AR deals more damage/DPS. SMGs vs. shotgun, depends on the shotgun, some of them are pretty accurate with good range, so they will still outdamage the SMG. Like I said, on one of my alts, I've been able to consistently reproduce the results. 1 vs. 1, face-to-face encounter, both at full shields and armour. Anything from point-blank out to about 10m, I expect my SMG to beat most AR users. It consistently and reliably wins fights for me. Maybe I'm better than I give myself credit for? Or maybe the SMG is better at CQC than you realise. Standard SMG (or Toxin, the statlines are the same): Damage per round: 21.0 HP Rate of Fire: 1000.0 RPM Clip Size: 80 Advanced AR (GEK-38): Damage per round: 32.5 Rate of Fire: 750.0 RPM Clip Size: 60 Over the course of a minute, ignoring reloads and max ammo, this results in 21,000 damage from the SMG and 24,375 damage from the AR. Over the course of a single clip, the SMG deals 1680 damage, while the AR does 1950. Those differences aren't significant enough to make a real dent in DPS comparison. ACCURACY matters more. At longer ranges, precision is important. High accuracy means more shots on target. That means the AR kills faster at range, and that's why I don't fight at range. Most people think that accuracy is less important in CQC, and that's why high-RoF low-damage weapons like SMGs shine. Fortunately for me, that isn't true. Accuracy matters, but in the REVERSE of how it matters at range. LOWER accuracy gives you an ADVANTAGE in close quarters. If I'm moving erratically, you CAN'T be sure of keeping your crosshairs on me accurately in close quarters without reading both my mind and the game's current latency PERFECTLY. Higher RoF means more bullets, which in turn means more chances to hit the target. Lower accuracy means the bullets spread out over a wider area, which means less precision is required from the shooter. In CQC, you don't need to keep the SMG dead on target to see consistent damage output. The AR loses more damage against an erratic target than the SMG does because of this. If I was just walking up in front of the AR guys and standing in front of them while shooting, then yes, they'd slaughter me. But I'm not stupid, so I actually MOVE while shooting, and CHANGE DIRECTION to throw off their aim. When they do the same to me, it doesn't cost me as large a portion of my potential DPS because of how my weapon works. At close range, SMG > AR. EDIT: Also, comparing clip size to fire rate of both weapons, they empty at very similar rates. Just under 5s if you hold the trigger down.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 14:19:00 - [3] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: The AR loses more damage against an erratic target than the SMG does because of this. this logic is dump, please more of that dump logic because these are "good" arguments trololo. you said yourself AR does more damage (even when you take the basic AR stats, the numbers in are favor for the AR) but for some reason you are assuming you miss more often with AR than SMG without any conclusive reason. and the best is how you claim that lower accuracy is an advantage, if you cant keep your aim on the target, maybe learn to aim? your post is also a good indication that you also have no clue how ROF affects the recoil. weapon kick stat of the weapon determines how much your accuracy is impaired for EACH shot and it stacks with itself up to a cap. higher ROF results in faster stacking of weapon kick. You might want to go back and re-read my post. Particularly the part where I already explained very clearly the exact reasons behind WHY there's a benefit to lower accuracy in CQC. And kick is a part of the CQC advantage for the SMG, because it helps to further reduce accuracy, thus ensure a better chance of hitting a target that isn't moving predictably. Or are you claiming to be a high-grade psychic capable of reading the minds of other players in far corners of the world with nothing more than their in-game name to work from? Good luck with that.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 14:45:00 - [4] - Quote JohnDS Wolf wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Jack McReady wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: The AR loses more damage against an erratic target than the SMG does because of this. this logic is dump, please more of that dump logic because these are "good" arguments trololo. you said yourself AR does more damage (even when you take the basic AR stats, the numbers in are favor for the AR) but for some reason you are assuming you miss more often with AR than SMG without any conclusive reason. and the best is how you claim that lower accuracy is an advantage, if you cant keep your aim on the target, maybe learn to aim? your post is also a good indication that you also have no clue how ROF affects the recoil. weapon kick stat of the weapon determines how much your accuracy is impaired for EACH shot and it stacks with itself up to a cap. higher ROF results in faster stacking of weapon kick. You might want to go back and re-read my post. Particularly the part where I already explained very clearly the exact reasons behind WHY there's a benefit to lower accuracy in CQC. And kick is a part of the CQC advantage for the SMG, because it helps to further reduce accuracy, thus ensure a better chance of hitting a target that isn't moving predictably. Or are you claiming to be a high-grade psychic capable of reading the minds of other players in far corners of the world with nothing more than their in-game name to work from? Good luck with that. missing drops your dps, missing also lower your chances for killing. you are eather right in their face (or back) fireing from the hilt or the luckiest man alive with each bullet hiting the target. Spread is great for groups but sence it takes so much to kill one dude with SMG's, yah, you're idea has a major flaw. It's just not a reliable weapon at any range, sence most weapons can not only kill faster, but can kill groups easyer. Congratulations on continuing to miss the point. At close range, the AR, even when you spray with it, has a relatively tight grouping. You hit pretty consistently within the crosshairs, even without training up your skill to improve accuracy. You HAVE to be aimed pretty much dead on or your shots are GUARANTEED to miss. ALL of them. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE. That means, with an erratic target, moving unpredictably, and not standing still or following a path where you can track them easily (have I thrown the same idea at you with enough different words that you get my point yet?), you potentially have as few as 0% of your shots hitting. As you said yourself, it doesn't matter what number you multiply by 0, you still deal no damage. Maybe, if you're lucky, REALLY good or the target screws up, you can get as high as 10% of your shots hitting with the AR against someone competent in CQC. MAYBE. When my SMG's shots are spreading wide, I don't need to be precise with my aim. I just need to ensure that I keep my crosshairs NEAR the target and I have decent odds on my shots hitting. It's not going to even be 50%, but it's still a LOT better than you're getting with your AR. I'm going to be consistently getting 30% of my shots hitting a target, AT LEAST. Probably more if I'm good at reading their movements. It's still not going to be nearly the 100% you'd need for those earlier damage calculations to apply accurately, and it will be rare to see better than 50% hit accuracy against someone who knows how to handle themselves in close quarters, but that low end of 30% means I'm dealing almost triple the best damage stats you'll see with your AR.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:07:00 - [5] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: You might want to go back and re-read my post. Particularly the part where I already explained very clearly the exact reasons behind WHY there's a benefit to lower accuracy in CQC. And kick is a part of the CQC advantage for the SMG, because it helps to further reduce accuracy, thus ensure a better chance of hitting a target that isn't moving predictably. . you the get award for the most stupid posts of the day. your logic is dump and you dont get it. if you miss 30% of times then you miss 30% of times with both type of weapons and the damage lost is the same no matter which weapon you hold and it only helps chance to hit for you because you obviously cannot aim. lack of aim is no argument and you cannot control the spread, not to mention that movement in this game is not as fast as it once was and it is really easy to hold the target under the crosshair. I might aswell claim, not firing does more damage because I dont miss same stupid monkey troll logic like yours. in short: your point is null and void. Right... one last try, then I'm done. You probably aren't capable of basic reading comprehension, but just in case, I'll see if I can put this in simpler terms for you. Firstly, I'll break it down into points that you SHOULD be able to understand, assuming you actually know English and aren't just a really impressive mimic or a spambot that hasn't realised its sig is missing: 1. When you line your crosshairs up on a target and pull the trigger, your shot goes approximately where you aim. The first shot's accuracy is based on the accuracy stat of the weapon. Subsequent shots are affected by kick and the weapons rate of fire. 2. When a target is moving, you have to move your crosshairs to follow their movement. 3. You aren't psychic, and therefore don't know exactly when your opponent is going to move, or which direction they're going to move in. 4. When your crosshairs AREN'T directly over the target, you're relying on the spread of your shots to give you a chance to hit the target. 5. Weapons with a higher rate of fire give you more chances for a shot to hit in the scenario described in point 4. 6. Weapons with a wider spread give you a wider arc in which you still have a chance to hit the target. 7. When a skilled CQC player is moving UNPREDICTABLY, you're not going to be keeping your crosshairs on them even for the 0.1s (or less) it would take to land a bullet on target. 8. Point 7 means that, in extreme close range, you rely almost entirely on your weapon's spread in order to land hits. 9. As a result of the above list, you SHOULD be able to see that SMGs with a wider spread have an advantage in a scenario where you're relying on spread. 10. In addition to point 9, it should also be clear that the higher rate of fire is also an advantage in this scenario. Points 5 and 10 also negate your claim that not firing is a good idea, because not firing reduces your rate of fire to 0, and we've already covered how effective 0 damage is. And 0 is a lower fire rate than any weapon in the game, which is a liability in a scenario where a higher fire rate is an advantage.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 15:50:00 - [6] - Quote Oh good, different arguments to respond to. Awesome. JohnDS Wolf wrote: your bullets are not heading straite, they are heading everywhere. while your chances for A bullet to hit the target is higher, you also have more of a chance to miss as well, i get that accraccy is pointless when they are in your face. i use hipfire is many games. but the POINT is that it's rubish aganced anything over 5 to 10 meters. that kind of range disavantage is SO severe that. the point is that the range sux, period. You are obviously being to defencive, because you keep ammiting that the range sux but saying that's ok because i can work around it. if you like SMG's a bunch you should see how benifical of having a range increase of SMGs would be awesome. Ecpecaly for logi, sence they are best around teammates who need revives and health. you can't heal and rez if the enemy flanks you and you need to support the team. Against ARs, you have a disadvantage when engaging at their preferred range. But an advantage when engaging from CLOSER than their preferred range. It's the same as how ARs have an advantage over Laser Rifles in close quarters. it's also the same as how Shotguns ONLY have an advantage over SMGs in even closer range than where the SMG starts to beat an AR. Mid-range SMG fire kills Shotgunners with minimal (if any) damage in return. Which leads me to... Knarf Black wrote: Chill, folks. Blacknova is referring to the fact that the un-upgraded SMG is essentially a slow motion shotgun. Unleashing a clip will have a similar spread to a shotgun blast, only with the bullets going out one at a time instead of all at once. If you've got a guy bunnyhopping all over the place in CQC, you can pretty much just hipfire in the general direction of his torso and the majority of your bullets will connect somewhere on his body for damage. I do this to people all the time, usually killing them with my last few bullets while they're trying to reload. Pretty much, yeah. But here's where you go wrong: Quote: The problem with this strategy is that it assumes that your opponent is not using a mouse, in which case he's going to be able to draw a bead on you even while jumping like a crazy idiot. Also, it becomes less and less viable as you skill up the SMG, as that reduces the kick and increases the accuracy. Nope. Even with a mouse, you're going to be going off-target more than on-target when you're in close range. It's easier to track a target with a mouse than a controller, but you still need to know where they're going IN ADVANCE to stay reliably on-target, and even half-decent CQC players won't let you predict their movements that well. You WILL miss more than you hit, regardless of controller. Quote: To really get kills with the SMG, you need to upgrade the hell out of it, along with sidearm sharpshooter. You still have to get into medium to close range, and you'll never compete with the sheer damage of an AR, but the bigger clip and faster reloading time means you will almost always win in a reloading fight. Also not true. Other than the rapid reload skill costing less SP to train, you have no reload speed advantage. Standard SMG and AR both have 3s reload speed. And all the Rapid Reload skills give a 3% bonus. The advantage is in more of your shots hitting - the "shotgun" effect you described. And you don't need Sharpshooter when you're good at getting into CQC range before engaging. Most maps provide a good amount of cover over large areas, so it's possible to get close to enemies almost anywhere without getting too badly shot up along the way. Quote: I'd also recommend avoiding HMG heavies altogether. Even if you get the drop on them, they'll probably have just enough time to smear you into paste before their armor gives out. (If I had a quarter for every heavy that's killed me with only a tiny sliver of his health left, dinner would be free tonight.) Unless you're using a Shotgun or coming with friends, you generally don't want to engage HMGs within their effective range. Doesn't matter which non-Shotgun weapon you're using.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 16:19:00 - [7] - Quote I know I said I wouldn't bother replying, but you've actually moved on from your idiocy before. Good job! Jack McReady wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Mid-range SMG fire kills Shotgunners with minimal (if any) damage in return. Which leads me to.... this is again wrong. shotguns can still kill you in a single "clip" at mid range, additionally some of the shotguns have more range and accuracy. also define mid range. Mid-rnge is where most Shotguns stop dealing enough damage to be worth firing. And a Shotgun takes a LOT longer to deal damage than SMGs do at that kind of range, even if it's one with enough range to be capable of hitting a target. Quote: funny how you discredited yourself that often and still keep posting. very amusing. I guess ignorance is a blessing. I feel like I should be saying that to you. Not so much for the above part of this post, but almost everything else you've said since you first replied to me. Including what comes next... Quote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Unless you're using a Shotgun or coming with friends, you generally don't want to engage HMGs within their effective range. Doesn't matter which non-Shotgun weapon you're using if you aiming would not suck then you could point the SMG at the heavies head when you get the drop on him and kill him in a second. but as you point out yourself you have issues with aiming ...except that it takes less than half the time for him to kill you with bodyshots. And I never said I CAN'T aim, I said that NOBODY can keep their sights on a target effectively in CQC range. TRYING to aim in that situation makes you miss MORE against someone who knows how to fight at that range.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.31 18:08:00 - [8] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: nice that you pointed out how you cant aim so you spray against people that can I'm going to need a post number and a quote showing where I said that, because I've just gone back through all my posts in this thread to make sure I hadn't. At no point in this discussion have I said that I can't aim. In fact, I've said the exact OPPOSITE when describing how to take down Shotgun users. Also, it takes my Skinweave Heavy with a Standard HMG less time to turn and kill a Proto Assault than it takes my Assault to kill an unmoving Standard Heavy at point-blank with Toxin SMG headshots. If they react fast, you don't get your kill.