DUST Search - Why are shields better?

Zat Earthshatter wrote:

So to recap - Type II heavy will let you pick, but shield-tanking might be preferable there.
Also, proto is only worth the extra investment when you've gotten every core-skill that backs it up to at least l4 - very similar to tech-II and tech-III EVE ships.
Even then, as an FPS the difference will be at most a half-second TTK change - shorter if attacking, longer if taking hits. However, in most situations that combo is sufficient to win against an equally-skilled, but lesser-equipped enemy.

Lastly, Tac Com's vehicle analysis is correct. However, beware that remaining armor health under 25% or so bleeds off from an internal fire - so you need to rep that back up when you get a moment, either with a repper module or a Repair Tool.

P.S. can somebody give me the feasibility of, say, running a pure "buffer" tank on a Marauder, then retreating to use an "Axis" Repair Tool on it? I know it'd take longer, but it might give you a couple precious seconds to finish off the enemy you're shooting.

P.P.S. after the couple months or so when somebody can actually run it with all the core-skills in place - I know nobody can really drive a Marauder effectively yet due to SP limits.
Final request: Any idea when we're going to get a "DUSTMon" skill-planning tool? Even now such a thing would be useful.

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GeneralButtNaked Burnwall Industries 54	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:32:00 - [1] - Quote I see this stated as a given by the veterans, and was looking for a better explanation and some more info. Are shields better generally, or are there certain suits that benefit more from them? How much of a dead end is armor? I am working on a heavy build, should I only invest in Field Mechanics, and nothing else in armor? Trying to not spend SP unwisely so early, so any help would be appreciated.
Denak Kalamari CrimeWave Syndicate 80	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:45:00 - [2] - Quote The simple answer is shield regenerates, armor does not without a seperate module or equipment. That is the only reason I can come up with.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:45:00 - [3] - Quote For infantry, shields are indeed better until people get smart and start using flux grenades, or until laser weapons are more popular. Shields have a resistance to explosive damage Shields Don't slow you don't like armor does Shields don't need a special module to regenerate, and regenerate much faster than armor- while they aren't as good as armor in short, open engagements, they can help you if you go into cover. Armor, on the other hand, has a resistance to laser damage (including forge guns), and armor plates add more to your armor than shield extenders of the same tier add to your shields.
Hachi Sachi Relicta Lumen 2	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:50:00 - [4] - Quote Shields and armor fit into different module slots. If you e.g. want to use damage modifiers they fit into the same slot as shield extenders. Then getting more HP can be done by adding armor.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2013.01.26 16:05:00 - [5] - Quote Hachi Sachi wrote: Shields and armor fit into different module slots. If you e.g. want to use damage modifiers they fit into the same slot as shield extenders. Then getting more HP can be done by adding armor. Yep. Due to my amazing logi PG/CPU, I'm using 2 shield extenders, armor plates, and an armor repair unit.
Zat Earthshatter Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 304	Posted - 2013.01.26 16:36:00 - [6] - Quote Currently, because more dropsuits use shield, and because armor-tanked vehicles catch on fire if you let it get down too far. A good module to fit on your Assault is the "Shield Regulator" - it's a low slot module that reduces the wait time until your shields begin recharging. This means you don't have to hide as long, so you can spend more time putting weapon effect on target. The low slot also means you don't have to trade your Extenders or Rechargers for it. Although it requires the Shield Control skill, a shield-tanker needs to be training that skill up to at least l4 anyway as l4 gives a 20% boost to the shield HP.
Hachi Sachi Relicta Lumen 2	Posted - 2013.01.26 16:50:00 - [7] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Hachi Sachi wrote: Shields and armor fit into different module slots. If you e.g. want to use damage modifiers they fit into the same slot as shield extenders. Then getting more HP can be done by adding armor. Yep. Due to my amazing logi PG/CPU, I'm using 2 shield extenders, armor plates, and an armor repair unit. Yeah me too. I have a few different setups, some with more damage, some with more shield and/or armor. I want my Logi A suit, 3 high power and 3 low power slots
Martin0 Brancaleone Maphia Clan Corporation CRONOS. 191	Posted - 2013.01.26 17:35:00 - [8] - Quote With armor you can fit damage mods into your high slots but you will be slower. With shield you wont slow down but you will be more vulnerable to laser rifles and flux grenades (flux 'nades completely remove shields from any dropsuit). ALSO we don't have yet all the electronic warfare modules that will use high slots (same as shield). Soooooo skill what you like most. And remember: True Men Hull Tank
GarryKE Omnispace Trading Company 60	Posted - 2013.01.26 17:44:00 - [9] - Quote Martin0 Brancaleone wrote: (flux 'nades completely remove shields from any dropsuit). Not all the time. If your enemy is on the edge of the flux grenade's radius, it will only partially disrupt their shield health.
GeneralButtNaked Burnwall Industries 54	Posted - 2013.01.26 17:52:00 - [10] - Quote Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess I should have mentioned that I was asking this about a heavy build. Specifically, I was thinking about running an HMG, and am trying to figure out how to be most effective. The extra HP from Armor seems appealing to me, as I don't mind the movement penalty since I work with a Logi/Medic at all times. By already sacrificing speed, I can take a damage mod and really put a boot in where needed. Just not sure if I am making a bad trade by going this route.

Tac Com Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 41	Posted - 2013.01.26 20:01:00 - [11] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess I should have mentioned that I was asking this about a heavy build. Specifically, I was thinking about running an HMG, and am trying to figure out how to be most effective. The extra HP from Armor seems appealing to me, as I don't mind the movement penalty since I work with a Logi/Medic at all times. By already sacrificing speed, I can take a damage mod and really put a boot in where needed. Just not sure if I am making a bad trade by going this route. If you're planning on using the Type I suit which has I beieve 650 base armour, then what I would recommend is instead of putting armour plates in your lows, put armour reppers and beef up your armour repair skill. Plates will give you more HP buffer but even logis can only heal so fast (best I've seen is 44/sec with proto triage gun but most will be sporting militia BPO at 25/sec). Unlike shields, armour repair mods on dropsuits will repair all the time, even under fire. So a pair of complex armour repairers will give you 10 armour per second at all times, and after 11 seconds or so you'll have repaired a complex armour plate and not have to suffer the slow down. (That's another note, armour reppers have no speed penalty). Shields though do have the advantage of being natrually higher at regenerating but as a heavy the fact that armour reppers work under fire is a key point as often you will be. And if you arn't being shot at long enough, you're shields will regen anyways. All that said, as a heavy suit goes, I am really liking the Type II for it's nice balance between shields and armour. It still sports about the same armour health as the militia heavy suit but comes with a healthy dose of shields. I would take a good look at it. Vehicles are a differant story all together... But short version, shields are currently more naturally resistant to AV (specifically swarm launchers). But shield hardeners have such a short duration and shield boosters are worthless. Armour tanks are more vulnerable to swarms but thier long hardener durations allow you to have a hardener on at all times and half of the time have 2 active (if you have twin hardeners). Also armour reppers have much longer durations and better repair rates so they can get back a staggering amount of health. Example, shield booster I repairs 285/s with 1 sec pulse over 5 pulses, so 5 sec of repair so 1425 shield regenerated. Armour repairer I repairs 360/s with 3 sec pulse over 5 pulses, so 15 sec of repair so 5400 armour repaired. And while the repper uses twice the power grid as the booster, it also uses 1/3rd the CPU so they are balanced against each other. I've found with HAVs specifically, that shield tanks are better for skirmishing and tanks off in the distance that won't be hit too often. Thier natural higher mobility makes them able to get out of situations better before taking heavy damage. Armour tankers though are significantly tougher and are better for assaults as they can soak up a rediculous amount of damage. I have tanked twin forges and a swarm launcher and survived (might have been two swarms, not sure if my allies got some of them). But if the situation got worse then there was no way I would beable to get out in time.
Zat Earthshatter Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 304	Posted - 2013.01.26 21:15:00 - [12] - Quote GeneralButtNaked wrote: Thanks for the replies everyone. I guess I should have mentioned that I was asking this about a heavy build. Specifically, I was thinking about running an HMG, and am trying to figure out how to be most effective. In which case, armor is better. There is one exception - the Type II/B Series/Vk 1.0 Heavies, which have more of a split between shields and armor - close enough to be able to choose which tank you want. If you use shield-tank with the Type II, then you can use Extenders in the highs, and Regulators in the lows for pure tank - just duck into cover for 20s and you'll be at near-full health again, ready to chew up more enemies. It might not be the best, but that's what's good about DUST - you can do whatever you kitten want with your gear! You'll go down a bit quicker to sustained fire however, so you'll want to be taking cover more often as a Type II, shield-tank Heavy. A "standard" Type I/A Series/Vk 0.0 Heavy will always be armor-tanked, and ideally with a Logibro or two trailing behind you like oh-so-many TF2 medics. This version doesn't need no stinkin' cover - because it will tear up anything that gets in the open in front of the HMG, which is its very role. Your bane is snipers and Shotgun Scouts - the former is out of reach, and the latter will orbit you too fast to track if you let it. Basically - use a Type II-series if you decide to shield-tank a Heavy or go "solo" with it. The Type I-series is more of a team-player, but it can take far more punishment. If you want armor-tank, go with this one. (P.S. I really mean anything - I've seen LAVs get destroyed in mere seconds by an HMG Heavy, including my own LAVs. HAVs are usually smarter than that, but it could happen someday...)
0 Try Harder Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 114	Posted - 2013.01.26 22:15:00 - [13] - Quote Tac Com wrote: All that said, as a heavy suit goes, I am really liking the Type II for it's nice balance between shields and armour. It still sports about the same armour health as the militia heavy suit but comes with a healthy dose of shields. I would take a good look at it. Yah. I'd go with shield. I don't know about proto geared heavies, but Type-II suit seems to be amazing.
Tac Com Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 41	Posted - 2013.01.26 22:31:00 - [14] - Quote 0 Try Harder wrote: Tac Com wrote: All that said, as a heavy suit goes, I am really liking the Type II for it's nice balance between shields and armour. It still sports about the same armour health as the militia heavy suit but comes with a healthy dose of shields. I would take a good look at it. Yah. I'd go with shield. I don't know about proto geared heavies, but Type-II suit seems to be amazing. Not sure about proto mods for heavies as I didn't quite go that far with them, but as for the suits if going proto then I'd go with k.0 as the extra mid can go to weapon damage and it's 80k price tag isn't nearly as bad (although personally I'd probably still take A series as 2 mids is fine for an armour tank suit) The k.1 though.... I don't see any justification to take the k.1 over the B series. The main draw to the B series is the second low for a second shield regulator or a shield reg + armour rep, but the k.1 adds an additional mid.... at the cost of 200k! Yes it has more CPU/grid but that's also to make up for the 3rd mid. If you had ISK to blow then go for it but at the moment the k.1 is way to steeply priced. Now, if it was 2 mids and 3 lows or even better, 3/3 for that kind of isk.... I'd be all over it :P I'm always working on fits though so if I can find a use for that k.1 that justifies that steep a price then I'll be sure to share XD
Zat Earthshatter Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 304	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:27:00 - [15] - Quote So to recap - Type II heavy will let you pick, but shield-tanking might be preferable there. Also, proto is only worth the extra investment when you've gotten every core-skill that backs it up to at least l4 - very similar to tech-II and tech-III EVE ships. Even then, as an FPS the difference will be at most a half-second TTK change - shorter if attacking, longer if taking hits. However, in most situations that combo is sufficient to win against an equally-skilled, but lesser-equipped enemy. Lastly, Tac Com's vehicle analysis is correct. However, beware that remaining armor health under 25% or so bleeds off from an internal fire - so you need to rep that back up when you get a moment, either with a repper module or a Repair Tool. P.S. can somebody give me the feasibility of, say, running a pure "buffer" tank on a Marauder, then retreating to use an "Axis" Repair Tool on it? I know it'd take longer, but it might give you a couple precious seconds to finish off the enemy you're shooting. P.P.S. after the couple months or so when somebody can actually run it with all the core-skills in place - I know nobody can really drive a Marauder effectively yet due to SP limits. Final request: Any idea when we're going to get a "DUSTMon" skill-planning tool? Even now such a thing would be useful.
Tac Com Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 41	Posted - 2013.01.27 06:39:00 - [16] - Quote Zat Earthshatter wrote: So to recap - Type II heavy will let you pick, but shield-tanking might be preferable there. Also, proto is only worth the extra investment when you've gotten every core-skill that backs it up to at least l4 - very similar to tech-II and tech-III EVE ships. Even then, as an FPS the difference will be at most a half-second TTK change - shorter if attacking, longer if taking hits. However, in most situations that combo is sufficient to win against an equally-skilled, but lesser-equipped enemy. Lastly, Tac Com's vehicle analysis is correct. However, beware that remaining armor health under 25% or so bleeds off from an internal fire - so you need to rep that back up when you get a moment, either with a repper module or a Repair Tool. P.S. can somebody give me the feasibility of, say, running a pure "buffer" tank on a Marauder, then retreating to use an "Axis" Repair Tool on it? I know it'd take longer, but it might give you a couple precious seconds to finish off the enemy you're shooting. P.P.S. after the couple months or so when somebody can actually run it with all the core-skills in place - I know nobody can really drive a Marauder effectively yet due to SP limits. Final request: Any idea when we're going to get a "DUSTMon" skill-planning tool? Even now such a thing would be useful. Some of us in closed beta drove such tanks so we can still give you an accurate statement. The buffer tank I would only suggest if you have immediate logistical support, in the form of an LAV or HAV. Otherwise in many scenarios you are better off with reppers. Mind you for an armour repper fit you still need a plate to give you enough health to survive a few rounds and allow your reppers to really do thier job. Doesn't matter if you can rep god-like amounts of damage if only a couple rounds will take you out. But even with logistical support I'd still suggest a repper incase your logi goes down. Logi repair tools on the other hand repair far too slowly to justify a buffer tank unless you had multiple, but foot soldiers are more vulnerable and can't keep up with the tank during manuvers. In short, you would most likely be better off going with a single large repper, 180mm plate, twin hardener setup then straight buffer. Such a setup would still give you plenty of health (I think it was 5-6k if I remember right) with the single repper being able to repair 5k on it's own and still allow room for logistical support. EDIT: And thanks for adding to my analysis. It is an important factor to keep your armour up to avoid fire ruining your day. It is always recommended to pilot with a repair rool for such an occasion that your reppers are in cooldown and you need to stop the flames. You can call it your portable fire extingiusher.


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