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Oxskull Duncarino
Shadow Company HQ
165
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 14:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Don Von Hulio wrote:Im not worried about ISK. As they still have yet to incorporate Salvage and other game modes. Even if i was already at Proto level, i wouldnt be dissatisfied with current ISK payouts. I received almost 500k ISK today in my best match.
I know i would benefit from choice 5. Otherwise, i wouldn't try to convert people. lol And anyways, im sure the SP will be revised several times, and alot more things will be introduced and SP wont be such a big deal.
Whatever happens though, it better be a weekly cap, or some sort of roll over. lol Ha,ha, good honest answer. And yeh, there will be future changes, but at least by the votes now we're going to be getting the weekly cap for the near future. Sweet |
Needless Sacermendor
Red Fox Brigade
208
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Posted - 2013.01.26 14:52:00 -
[32] - Quote
Garrett and Lasarte both have a slight misunderstanding of the options ...
Garrett seems to imply option 2 includes some kind of daily roll over ... option 2 is just a weekly cap like we used to have, but after a couple of days his 'hardcore' player will reach that cap and for the rest of the week will earn 1sp per 1wp upto the soft cap of 1000sp per match.
The rollover idea is what CCP are working on developing to be introduced ... what we are voting on is an interim hotfix solution to the feeling of DUST being a daily chore/job.
Lasarte seems to imply option 2 gives you 1000 sp after htting your cap no matter how badly you do in a match ... as above, optiin 2 is still 1sp per 1wp, but just capped at 1000 so those doing 3, 4, or even 5000 wp in a match aren't getting so far ahead of the curve.
My vote was option 5 until I realised it just widens the gap that the "no-lifers" can grind out by playing 24/7 with an IV and colostomy bag !
So I unliked it and changed my vote to option 2 ... remember it's easy to change your vote. |
xprotoman23
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1452
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 15:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Realistically speaking this option makes the most sense, and pleases all parties. The weekly cap keeps everybody somewhat on a level playing field. This is great for people who can't play everyday, and it alleviates DUST being a full time job. I believe once you hit your weekly cap 1 WP = 1 SP. This would allow your performance to be directly tied to how many skill points you get from the battle.
After hitting the weekly cap 1 WP= 1 SP, Allows for the hardcore players to feel as if they aren't being punished for playing a game that they enjoy. This also allows for newer players to somewhat catch up to everybody else if they not only put the time into the game, but also are somewhat decent at it.
however though when behind a redline you shouldn't get any WP's for any actions you perform, because hiding behind the redline destroys the pacing of the game, and generally speaking is a sissy thing to do.
The problem with the weekly cap is it ensures that newer players will NEVER be given the opportunity to catch up to people who have been playing longer, let alone have a somewhat even playing field. CCP needs to quit catering the game to a "casual" player-base that doesn't exist. Zipper did the same thing with MAG, and most of us know all too well what happened with that. In many ways, the weekly cap was broken, and linked progression directly with long you've played versus how good you actually are.
At the very least, Option 5 needs to be tested. It's the only option that not only rewards players for actually being good, but it allows for newer players to be given the opportunity to somewhat level the playing field, and somewhat close the gap between themselves and older players. Option 5 is "rollover" without CCP having to put "rollover" in the game.
In regards to active boosters, they will actually perform their job, and allow people to do more faster. Currently all the active booster really does it raise your daily SP cap a bit. However once hitting the cap with 1 WP = 1 SP it will actually feel as if you are getting your moneys worth out of the active booster. Thus people will ultimately spend more money on the active boosters. I don't think people realize that by voting for option 2 they are allowing CCP to rob them out of the purpose of their active booster which is to do more faster, versus paying to raise an SP cap.
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Ydubbs81 RND
Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising
886
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Posted - 2013.01.26 16:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Yay Adski wrote:With option 5 new players would have the option to grind for a week and not be as far behind as option 2. I voted for 5 because it helps those who need/want the weekly cap and doesn't punish players for doing well. CCP should of just done a trial with option 5 and then do a vote.
Must remember that new players will never catch the hardcore players. If we remove the softcap then the hardcore players will further increase the difference in total sps. Because as the new players grind, so will the already hardcore vets |
Mirana Cheshire
Forgotten Militia
20
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Posted - 2013.01.26 16:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:Lets assume 3 players start playing DUST 514 at the same time. We'll call them "Noob 1" to "Noob 3"
Noob 1 has several hours to play DUST every day. (hardcore) Noob 2 has a solid session of 10 hours on Saturday, and a couple of hours on Sunday, but can't play the rest of the week. (regular) Noob 3 only has a couple of hours to spare every week. (casual)
Now lets look what happens using option 2 from the poll:
Noob 1 (hardcore) hits the rolling daily cap, every day. Part of his playtime is spent with SP limits every day. Noob 2 (regular) doesn't play every day, so the SP cap rolls over during the week, allowing them to approach - but maybe not hit - the cap every weekend. He'll probably earn a little bit less SP than the hardcore Noob 1, but not by much. Noob 3 (casual) doesn't push his limits, and is a casual player, so he's always going to be falling behind anyway.
Lets see what happens with option 5:
Noob 1 (hardcore) races ahead, leaving everyone else in the dust (see what I did there? Terrible pun is terrible) Noob 2 (regular) will fall behind during the week, and when he does get to play, will only lessen the gap a little bit, rather than actually feeling like he has any chance. After a couple of months, Noob 1 will outstrip him horribly. Noob 3 (casual) is still a casual player, and not being held back too badly.
Now, lets compare two hardcore players who start playing the game 6 months apart. We'll call them "Experienced Player and Noob.
Using option 2:
Experienced Player hits the daily cap every day, and if he has a day or two off, the rolling cap gives him the previous day's cap on top of his current day. Noob can play a similar amount, and get similar SP earnings, allowing him to keep pace with Experienced Player's SP earnings. As with Experienced Player, if Noob misses a day or two, those days' SP caps roll over to allow him to maintain his position with a longer-than-usual session if he wants to push for it.
Using Option 5:
Experienced Player gets to race forward unrestricted on SP. Missing a day means missing out on a day's worth of SP. Noob has exactly the same advantages and restrictions. If he keeps up, his SP earning will allow him to keep pace with Experienced Player, still a LONG way behind, but not falling further behind. If he misses a day, however, that day's lost SP earnings will mean he falls further behind.
My vote for option 2 stands.
you forgot to add noob 4 (new player to dust) : playing everyday
with option 2, noob 4 will never even have a chance to catch up to noob 1 cause of the sp limits
with option 5, noob 4 will have a slight chance to catch up to noob 1 by playing better and getting more wp, since this game is about skill right?
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xprotoman23
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1452
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 16:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
Ydubbs81 RND wrote:Yay Adski wrote:With option 5 new players would have the option to grind for a week and not be as far behind as option 2. I voted for 5 because it helps those who need/want the weekly cap and doesn't punish players for doing well. CCP should of just done a trial with option 5 and then do a vote. Must remember that new players will never catch the hardcore players. If we remove the softcap then the hardcore players will further increase the difference in total sps. Because as the new players grind, so will the already hardcore vets
I was banned from DUST for a 3+ weeks. Upon my return, I still dominated people. Most "hardcore" players suck. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 16:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:Realistically speaking this option makes the most sense, and pleases all parties. The weekly cap keeps everybody somewhat on a level playing field. This is great for people who can't play everyday, and it alleviates DUST being a full time job. I believe once you hit your weekly cap 1 WP = 1 SP. This would allow your performance to be directly tied to how many skill points you get from the battle.
After hitting the weekly cap 1 WP= 1 SP, Allows for the hardcore players to feel as if they aren't being punished for playing a game that they enjoy. This also allows for newer players to somewhat catch up to everybody else if they not only put the time into the game, but also are somewhat decent at it.
however though when behind a redline you shouldn't get any WP's for any actions you perform, because hiding behind the redline destroys the pacing of the game, and generally speaking is a sissy thing to do.
The problem with the weekly cap is it ensures that newer players will NEVER be given the opportunity to catch up to people who have been playing longer, let alone have a somewhat even playing field. CCP needs to quit catering the game to a "casual" player-base that doesn't exist. Zipper did the same thing with MAG, and most of us know all too well what happened with that. In many ways, the weekly cap was broken, and linked progression directly with long you've played versus how good you actually are.
At the very least, Option 5 needs to be tested. It's the only option that not only rewards players for actually being good, but it allows for newer players to be given the opportunity to somewhat level the playing field, and somewhat close the gap between themselves and older players. Option 5 is "rollover" without CCP having to put "rollover" in the game.
In regards to active boosters, they will actually perform their job, and allow people to do more faster. Currently all the active booster really does it raise your daily SP cap a bit. However once hitting the cap with 1 WP = 1 SP it will actually feel as if you are getting your moneys worth out of the active booster. Thus people will ultimately spend more money on the active boosters. I don't think people realize that by voting for option 2 they are allowing CCP to rob them out of the purpose of their active booster which is to do more faster, versus paying to raise an SP cap.
CCP listen to this man! #5 is the only option
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Lasarte Ioni
Noob Gaming
72
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 21:40:00 -
[38] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:Realistically speaking this option makes the most sense, and pleases all parties. The weekly cap keeps everybody somewhat on a level playing field. This is great for people who can't play everyday, and it alleviates DUST being a full time job. I believe once you hit your weekly cap 1 WP = 1 SP. This would allow your performance to be directly tied to how many skill points you get from the battle.
After hitting the weekly cap 1 WP= 1 SP, Allows for the hardcore players to feel as if they aren't being punished for playing a game that they enjoy. This also allows for newer players to somewhat catch up to everybody else if they not only put the time into the game, but also are somewhat decent at it.
however though when behind a redline you shouldn't get any WP's for any actions you perform, because hiding behind the redline destroys the pacing of the game, and generally speaking is a sissy thing to do.
The problem with the weekly cap is it ensures that newer players will NEVER be given the opportunity to catch up to people who have been playing longer, let alone have a somewhat even playing field. CCP needs to quit catering the game to a "casual" player-base that doesn't exist. Zipper did the same thing with MAG, and most of us know all too well what happened with that. In many ways, the weekly cap was broken, and linked progression directly with long you've played versus how good you actually are.
At the very least, Option 5 needs to be tested. It's the only option that not only rewards players for actually being good, but it allows for newer players to be given the opportunity to somewhat level the playing field, and somewhat close the gap between themselves and older players. Option 5 is "rollover" without CCP having to put "rollover" in the game.
In regards to active boosters, they will actually perform their job, and allow people to do more faster. Currently all the active booster really does it raise your daily SP cap a bit. However once hitting the cap with 1 WP = 1 SP it will actually feel as if you are getting your moneys worth out of the active booster. Thus people will ultimately spend more money on the active boosters. I don't think people realize that by voting for option 2 they are allowing CCP to rob them out of the purpose of their active booster which is to do more faster, versus paying to raise an SP cap.
exactly, +1 man :D
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Scurvy Granger
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
75
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 21:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
xprotoman23 wrote:Realistically speaking this option makes the most sense, and pleases all parties. The weekly cap keeps everybody somewhat on a level playing field. This is great for people who can't play everyday, and it alleviates DUST being a full time job. I believe once you hit your weekly cap 1 WP = 1 SP. This would allow your performance to be directly tied to how many skill points you get from the battle.
In regards to active boosters, they will actually perform their job, and allow people to do more faster. Currently all the active booster really does it raise your daily SP cap a bit. However once hitting the cap with 1 WP = 1 SP it will actually feel as if you are getting your moneys worth out of the active booster. Thus people will ultimately spend more money on the active boosters. I don't think people realize that by voting for option 2 they are allowing CCP to rob them out of the purpose of their active booster which is to do more faster, versus paying to raise an SP cap.
I responded to this in another thread:
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=495781#post495781
But also:
Good and bad players aside lets run some basic numbers assuming that 2 players are equal in skill but one can play more.
No SP soft cap:
Casual: @ 2 days a week 6 hours a day(casual might play less)
2000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 2000 * 4(matches per hour) = 8000 WP 8000 * 4(hours after hitting cap) = 32000 WP (Don't forget the booster) 32000 * 1.5 = 48000 SP
Hardcore: @ 5 days a week 4 hours a day(they often play more than this)
2000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 2000 * 4(matches per hour) = 8000 WP(same so far) 8000 * 12(hours after hitting cap) = 96000 WP(Wait what?) (Don't forget the booster) 96000 * 1.5 = 144000 SP(Are you serious?!?!?)
Hardcore - Casual = 96000 SP
1k SP cap per match:
Casual: @ 2 days a week 6 hours a day(casual might play less)
1000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 1000 * 5(matches per hour/you can run ambush) = 5000 WP 5000 * 4(hours after hitting cap) = 20000 WP (Don't forget the booster) 20000 * 1.5 = 30000 SP
Hardcore: @ 5 days a week 4 hours a day(they often play more than this)
1000 WP per match: if they hit cap after 8 hours 1000 * 5(matches per hour/you can run ambush) = 5000 WP(again same so far) 5000 * 12(hours after hitting cap) = 60000(well that still sucks) (Don't forget the booster) 60000 * 1.5 = 90000 SP
Hardcore - Casual = 60000 SP
It sucks either way because the hardcore player pulls ahead, but at least with that soft cap he/she doesn't pull ahead quite as much. I think I'll go for the one that doesn't suck as bad for everyone besides the minority that has the time to play more.
Both options make life better for "hardcore" players but option 5 makes it just a bit easier on them. |
Scurvy Granger
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
75
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 21:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Also all of you saying option 5 is better for new players are straight up liars.
That is all. |
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Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 06:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
Mirana Cheshire wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:Now, lets compare two hardcore players who start playing the game 6 months apart. We'll call them "Experienced Player and Noob.
Using option 2:
Experienced Player hits the daily cap every day, and if he has a day or two off, the rolling cap gives him the previous day's cap on top of his current day. Noob can play a similar amount, and get similar SP earnings, allowing him to keep pace with Experienced Player's SP earnings. As with Experienced Player, if Noob misses a day or two, those days' SP caps roll over to allow him to maintain his position with a longer-than-usual session if he wants to push for it.
Using Option 5:
Experienced Player gets to race forward unrestricted on SP. Missing a day means missing out on a day's worth of SP. Noob has exactly the same advantages and restrictions. If he keeps up, his SP earning will allow him to keep pace with Experienced Player, still a LONG way behind, but not falling further behind. If he misses a day, however, that day's lost SP earnings will mean he falls further behind.
My vote for option 2 stands. you forgot to add noob 4 (new player to dust) : playing everyday with option 2, noob 4 will never even have a chance to catch up to noob 1 cause of the sp limits with option 5, noob 4 will have a slight chance to catch up to noob 1 by playing better and getting more wp, since this game is about skill right? My first example showed 3 players starting at the same time. My second example was almost exactly the scenario you're describing.
I've edited out the first scenario from your quote, so it only includes where I already covered that scenario.
With option 5, missing a day (sick, feel like playing something else, holiday, etc.) means you automatically fall behind. With option 2, you get a chance to "catch up" on a missed day with some extra playtime on a subsequent day within the rollover period.
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Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 06:15:00 -
[42] - Quote
Well stated. Changed my vote. |
Scurvy Granger
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
75
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 06:19:00 -
[43] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote: My first example showed 3 players starting at the same time. My second example was almost exactly the scenario you're describing.
I've edited out the first scenario from your quote, so it only includes where I already covered that scenario.
With option 5, missing a day (sick, feel like playing something else, holiday, etc.) means you automatically fall behind. With option 2, you get a chance to "catch up" on a missed day with some extra playtime on a subsequent day within the rollover period.
Not to defend the other side because option 5 CLEARLY favors the "hardcore" players(players who are on a game nearly everyday), but your argument has holes because there is no rollover being implemented on any of the options.
Roll over is the EVENTUAL plan but currently their code doesn't allow for rollover so they gave us hotfix OPTIONS.
Being that this is only going to be a hotfix makes it even more important that option 5 not be the one chosen because there are going to be no more resets and that just gives the "hardcore" a period of time before the FINAL SP gain plan to increase the gap between themselves and everyone that has lives(I understand some of you have lives but still play several hours a day, it's just easier saying this than naming off everything that others have to worry about).
Whatever the final plan for SP gain I'll get over it and deal, no matter what I won't be at the lead of SP I would just rather not be any further behind than absolutely necessary.
Unfair for "hardcore" players yes, they could earn more
Unfair for "casual" players yes, they don't have as much time
Why should "hardcore" players not have to sacrifice but "casual" players do because we have RL responsibilities that keep us from playing a game we enjoy as often as we'd like?
Both sacrifice and it's not as bad as it could be for either side. |
Odiain Suliis
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
112
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 06:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ruyan Aldent wrote:Most people seem to be thinking that the new players will be able to catch up if they decide to grind with the options that allow WP to Sp gain but this also would allow the veteran players to grind and get even farther. Even if a new player grinds by the logic of a veteran player being better for their gear the veteran will be gaining more WP per match because they will be doing better so not only will the new players not catch up they will actually begin to get left behind further.
^This presicely. |
Zekain Kade
BetaMax.
931
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 06:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Where is this thread everyone is talking about? |
DJINN leukoplast
Hellstorm Inc League of Infamy
288
|
Posted - 2013.01.27 07:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Don Von Hulio wrote:Im just checking to see if choice two is REALLLY what the majority of voters want. Because ive talked to some people who were a bit confused, an just chose the one with the most.
I chose the best option for game balance and convince for all players as a whole, not what could potentially suit me the best.
Choice #2 isn't the best, but it is the best of all the options. I don't like that the soft cap is up to 1000 SP a match, cause that means 24/7 players will be years ahead of casual players in a month or so. If there was no soft cap at all and 1 WP = 1 SP (choice #5), 24/7 no-lifers would become proto gods overnight and absolutely demolish what balance this game has left.
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