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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.24 06:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
OK, just from that title, how many of you thought this was going to be 'use AURUM to go past cap?'
When I looked at the SP cap system, I was reminded of something I had seen before in the ever-compared-to-this-game title MAG; namely Happy Hour XP bonuses. It encouraged more of a 'play a bit every day for a bonus' thing, and felt less like 'play every day or you LOSE' thing. So why can't it be like that? It worked for WoW and MAG, why can't it work here?
When I looked at AURUM, as is my won't for being a strictly freebie player, I wanted to see exactly what it was for. I shoved aside my automatic knee-jerk of 'it is a pay to win thing, just hate it' and noticed it isn't so much a separate currency like ISK. It is liquid SP. You can spend it to boost your permanent SP(passive and active boosters) or use it to make up for your lack of SP(items that are available a tier before their contemporaries), with the odd example of a BPO here or minor unfairly worked weapon there(I'm looking at you Broadside). SP is a way to use your money to bypass your perceived impatience. Not something I agree with, but to each their own.
Basically, SP and AURUM work hand in hand, and having to spend too much more than an hour daily on getting to the cap will make a good number of players give up on even trying (not all of us get 10k a match every time). If CCP wants an 'appointment' feel to it's game, then they'd better keep the appointments short, effective, and to the point. Some may feel this panders to casual players, and some may feel it takes away the inherant reward with willing to spend a long time ingame, but that's more ISKs function. Everyone I play DUST with has a few other games they also want to get around to, and I myself have five, so not forcing us to put in too much time to DUST, especially while still in beta, will prevent player burnout and general negativity.
- Rested=100%
- Not Rested=1%
- Boosters will still exist.
- Daily SP total will remain the same.
- Time spent on SP a day: One Hour
While composing this, I had a feeling I had heard something similar before, so I have linked this for your edification. http://www.penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/energy-systems |
Zat Earthshatter
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
304
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Posted - 2013.01.24 06:53:00 -
[2] - Quote
Edit: Ohh... For some reason I thought the full suggestion was longer than I thought... Your suggestion is to trade the cap for abysmal free SP gain at 10% of the gain while using Boosters, which you equated to "well-rested" bonuses in other MMOs. That boost is FAR too big, and would become P2W quickly, merely due to SP advantages those who pay wield over those who don't. Let's give an illustration using the 10% non-rest SP - Say the person who plays for free is "casual" and plays for 2 hours per day. The person who, say, uses the booster half the time, is a "hardcore" and plays for 4 hours. Then there's the uber-grinder, those who are so addicted they spend their whole wallets for a constant boost, and play 8 hours a day - as much as a job. lets say you get 1 SP per hour normally. As that's 10% of the booster, a person using the booster gets 10 SP(!!!) per hour. Casual - 2hrs x 1 = 2 SP Hardcore - (2hrs x 10) + (2hrs x 1) = 22 SP Uber - (8hrs X 10) = 80 SP
The Uber has almost quadrupled the Hardcore, and blown the Casual away with 40 times his SP! In EVE terms, this equates to a player getting a Titan in a single month, a second person flying a Proteus at full power, while a third player can barely undock a Battlecruiser in the same time. Tell me, how is such a situation not P2W? |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 07:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:Edit: Ohh... For some reason I thought the full suggestion was longer than I thought... Your suggestion is to trade the cap for abysmal free SP gain at 10% of the gain while using Boosters, which you equated to "well-rested" bonuses in other MMOs. That boost is FAR too big, and would become P2W quickly, merely due to SP advantages those who pay wield over those who don't. Let's give an illustration using the 10% non-rest SP - Say the person who plays for free is "casual" and plays for 2 hours per day. The person who, say, uses the booster half the time, is a "hardcore" and plays for 4 hours. Then there's the uber-grinder, those who are so addicted they spend their whole wallets for a constant boost, and play 8 hours a day - as much as a job. lets say you get 1 SP per hour normally. As that's 10% of the booster, a person using the booster gets 10 SP(!!!) per hour. Casual - 2hrs x 1 = 2 SP Hardcore - (2hrs x 10) + (2hrs x 1) = 22 SP Uber - (8hrs X 10) = 80 SP
The Uber has almost quadrupled the Hardcore, and blown the Casual away with 40 times his SP! In EVE terms, this equates to a player getting a Titan in a single month, a second person flying a Proteus at full power, while a third player can barely undock a Battlecruiser in the same time. Tell me, how is such a situation not P2W?
You seem to have misread. I said that RESTED is 100%, and when that is OVER, you get 10% or even 1%. Furthermore, I did not equate the booster to anything. Saying something that could be interpreted as removing/replacing boosters would end this thread in a firey death. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
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Posted - 2013.01.24 08:25:00 -
[4] - Quote
You have failed to draw the attention of spreadsheets online crowd (EVE) and need to do a proper spreadsheet and indicate this in the title.
WARNING: Knee-Jerk reaction of most EVE players is to rage when WoW is mentioned in reference for including a mechanic into a game... for good reason. You will encounter resistance based on that alone.
Use math to calm the raging neckbeard, and then listen and address the fact that we will find ways to break/exploit/invalidate the system.
Not because we want it to fail, but because it better be tight or it's gonna get broke fast, hard and rough. and the tears will flow when it's exploited.
Now... We kinda do have a rested SP system now, and pretty much everyone hates it. You're "rested" after server downtime.
you go from 5000-10,000 SP per match to 50
that's your 1% effect.
The neckbeards of DUST have raged because it's stupid and punishes casual play. So your idea may need a re-think. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 08:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:You have failed to draw the attention of spreadsheets online crowd (EVE) and need to do a proper spreadsheet and indicate this in the title.
WARNING: Knee-Jerk reaction of most EVE players is to rage when WoW is mentioned in reference for including a mechanic into a game... for good reason. You will encounter resistance based on that alone.
Use math to calm the raging neckbeard, and then listen and address the fact that we will find ways to break/exploit/invalidate the system.
Not because we want it to fail, but because it better be tight or it's gonna get broke fast, hard and rough. and the tears will flow when it's exploited.
Now... We kinda do have a rested SP system now, and pretty much everyone hates it. You're "rested" after server downtime.
you go from 5000-10,000 SP per match to 50
that's your 1% effect.
The neckbeards of DUST have raged because it's stupid and punishes casual play. So your idea may need a re-think.
My idea was more along the lines of less time for more gain, but then a sharp decrease once your time is up. Same general SP, but not a huge imposition, just taking an hour or so to max out rather than being forced to spend all your free time to 'keep up with the Zitros'. I could've been more clear there I suppose, but kitten being clear, no more posting threads at three in the morning. |
Hunter Junko
WARRIORS 1NC
45
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Posted - 2013.01.24 08:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
i've been watching the ExtraCreditz web series for a while now on youtube. Good stuff
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Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 08:53:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote: My idea was more along the lines of less time for more gain, but then a sharp decrease once your time is up. Same general SP, but not a huge imposition, just taking an hour or so to max out rather than being forced to spend all your free time to 'keep up with the Zitros'. I could've been more clear there I suppose, but kitten being clear, no more posting threads at three in the morning.
Takes me about an hour, hour and a half, tops to hit cap. In a previous SP build it took me about 3-4 hours of bum rush and blast. You don't get much shorter than that. if the SP system goes back to the weekly cap and gives like a thousand SP per battle (just enough to keep people interested after hitting cap) then you're looking at two, three days of two hours tops each if you've not consistently hit the 600+ Warpoint per match category.
Hitting cap is easy, even if you try to be rambo. The trick is getting SP while not coming up in the red with ISK when replacing your fits. it just takes a little practice, and a willingness to deploy whatever fit you think will help win the match rather than the typical FPS stereotypical LOLPEWPEW fit over an over again regardless if that's what you need.
CCP is currently working on an SP cap that will let casual players have lives and give hardcore chumleys something to shoot for. let's see what we get before we try to re-invent the wheel.
However... If you can refine the idea further, and make it into something that fits right around the intended rate of character growth, then by all means post it. But for now, that's where we seem to be standing. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 09:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote: My idea was more along the lines of less time for more gain, but then a sharp decrease once your time is up. Same general SP, but not a huge imposition, just taking an hour or so to max out rather than being forced to spend all your free time to 'keep up with the Zitros'. I could've been more clear there I suppose, but kitten being clear, no more posting threads at three in the morning.
Takes me about an hour, hour and a half, tops to hit cap. In a previous SP build it took me about 3-4 hours of bum rush and blast. You don't get much shorter than that. if the SP system goes back to the weekly cap and gives like a thousand SP per battle (just enough to keep people interested after hitting cap) then you're looking at two, three days of two hours tops each if you've not consistently hit the 600+ Warpoint per match category. Hitting cap is easy, even if you try to be rambo. The trick is getting SP while not coming up in the red with ISK when replacing your fits. it just takes a little practice, and a willingness to deploy whatever fit you think will help win the match rather than the typical FPS stereotypical LOLPEWPEW fit over an over again regardless if that's what you need. CCP is currently working on an SP cap that will let casual players have lives and give hardcore chumleys something to shoot for. let's see what we get before we try to re-invent the wheel. However... If you can refine the idea further, and make it into something that fits right around the intended rate of character growth, then by all means post it. But for now, that's where we seem to be standing.
How about weekly caps where you can get a Rested bonus to reward short daily play segments as opposed to just trying to grind it out rapidly? Sort of like an hour long active booster given out daily, a 10-15% bonus SP with the same cinching off point with the practically-a-hard-cap, but with a reason to play daily or a couple times a week instead of a once-a-week binge?
Still not sure if to play it off the '110% of now' or the '100% with 90% without' way that the Blizzard play-testers used.
May also want to make it a bigger difference, like 50% instead of 10 to really drive home the 'you spent your time, take a break' angle like the Happy Hour bonus gave you. MAG had no cap, but you felt like you were being more efficient by using the hour, so here with a cap we'd need to make the difference between rested and non-rested more pronounced. |
Breakin Stuff
Immobile Infantry
680
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 09:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
trim your quotes please. makes them easier to read and respond to. keep relevant points that you intend to respond to.
Basically, methinks you are overthinking the setup right now. unlike in a Blizz game where your XP progress visibly moves and you gain a level, in DUST XP does not operate in similar fashion, effectively giving a bonus for coming back after taking a break rewards people who bother to sleep occasionally. (this would be everyone)
You are looking at SP the wrong way. It's not so much XP in the traditional sense the way you are thinking. It's more akin to a third form of currency which you earn to improve your character in ways that enhance all of his gear, whatever he chooses.
You have ISK, which is the basic currency, you have aurum, which is the free-to-pay currency. both can be used to purchase fits and augmentations that meaningfully benefit your merc and allow him to excel in combat.
SP is the currency by which you purchase permanent improvements to your merc that are not lost upon death. You only buy them once, and once that currency is spent you are **** outta luck until you earn more, or the hourly allowance slowly ticks onward. But it is this currency that is in many ways the most precious, because once you use it, for good or for ill, you cannot get it back, and that is the point of the SP system. Each time you buy a skill point that choice has a consequence.
The arguments about the skill point caps were never about how there wasn't enough SP being earned in a week/day/whatever. The arguments were about the schizophrenic manner in which it is awarded. Most players oppose any increases in the overall amount earned per week from what we have, and almost all think that going over what CCP's passive and active boosters allow is a bad idea.
What is needed is for a SP system to be in place that doesn't absolutely enrage the hell out of people. The daily cap sucks because casual players (like me) lose out if they are forced by jobs and life to miss three or four days. The old weekly cap with diminishing returns sucked because the hardcores got to watch their efforts count for less and less sharply over a ridiculous amount of time. Plus the diminishing returns didn't really allow casuals to ever hit cap.
So before we start even dreaming about a rested XP boost, which would be exploited as fast as the players figured out how it worked, turning it into a mandatory thing in many lunatic players' minds,we need to have a solid, SP system that doesn't make half the player base want to eat CCP Wang's head and ragepost all day long. |
Zat Earthshatter
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 11:29:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ok... well, my original reaction was likely based upon mis-reading - And I tried not to, as the "edited" flag on my first reply marks the 3rd iteration of that post, each one based on a completely different interpretation of the OP. And it's still likely that I read it wrong that time too. Sorry that it came off as aggressive, but I do request that you at the very least make bullet-points at the end to clarify your ideas, preventing confusion and anger in the future. Trust me on that one - I've made some pretty difficult posts.
I get the basic portion of the idea now - you're offline for awhile, and get a pick-me-up boost for a short time when you get back on, with the boost increased by length of time offline. But we shouldn't tie the "rest" portion of SP gain to AUR, as the booster portion of the current system works just fine. I'm thinking we can modify it as a "progressive" boost - you get the max-boost over a period, and then it starts trailing off to the minimum 10% trickle. 10% is enough of a drop to avoid hardcores getting too far ahead of the casuals, while letting them still feel like they are getting somewhere with their grinding. |
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Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 19:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:Ok... well, my original reaction was likely based upon mis-reading - And I tried not to, as the "edited" flag on my first reply marks the 3rd iteration of that post, each one based on a completely different interpretation of the OP. And it's still likely that I read it wrong that time too. Sorry that it came off as aggressive, but I do request that you at the very least make bullet-points at the end to clarify your ideas, preventing confusion and anger in the future. Trust me on that one - I've made some pretty difficult posts.
I get the basic portion of the idea now - you're offline for awhile, and get a pick-me-up boost for a short time when you get back on, with the boost increased by length of time offline. But we shouldn't tie the "rest" portion of SP gain to AUR, as the booster portion of the current system works just fine. I'm thinking we can modify it as a "progressive" boost - you get the max-boost over a period, and then it starts trailing off to the minimum 10% trickle. 10% is enough of a drop to avoid hardcores getting too far ahead of the casuals, while letting them still feel like they are getting somewhere with their grinding.
No, it was entirely my fault. It wasn't a good idea to try and articulate a thread after a few sleepless days, I'm just glad Stuff was there to provide a counterbalance. |
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