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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
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Posted - 2013.01.22 17:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:
Our original aims with the skill cap were to ensure players progressed through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players. After trying out a couple of different approaches, none of which were satisfactory, we have realized that the skill cap introduces too many other unacceptable compromises and we have decided to take a leaf out of AlexanderGÇÖs book and just cut the Gordian knot and remove the skill cap altogether. Removing the skill cap opens us up to the risk of not meeting the aims stated above, so we have tuned down reward levels a little to reduce that risk.
All actions have repercussions. You can't just eliminate the cap and declare them gone.
There will ALWAYS be a significant difference between players, at least an order of magnitude, generally two. There are players getting 3,000 WP and 50 WP in each match.
CCP isn't really willing to just cut the knot or they wouldn't be lowering the SP gain per WP. They don't want to throw the door wide open for the SP fanatics to rush through.
The WP/SP curb is the new throttle that replaces the cap throttle.
So you have to take a look at what effects THAT new throttle will have, and it isn't pretty.
The experienced players will continue to receive the majority of WP's in each match and leave the lower level players to gain WP/SP at a rate 1-2 orders of magnitude less. So if the top earners are kept to a "reasonable" SP gain (as defined by CCP), the lower earners will be 1-2 orders of magnitude BELOW a reasonable rate.
That low earning population is going to include 90% of all new players and most will lose patience with the glacial pace of progression. They won't be willing or able to put in 10 to 100 times the hours of the top earners to obtain a reasonable progression.
Bottom line:
The WP/SP curb is a regressive tax on new players that is only required because of the cap removal, and it will kill interest in the game.
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Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 17:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Volgair wrote:Mr Zitro wrote:xprotoman23 wrote:Not going to read the entire thread need cliff notes. Somebody hook me up. Massive QQ cause sp cap is gone tomorrow. Forum warriors want to stop no lifers with a cap Sad sub class titles, but yeah. that's effectively whats going on here.
Actually I don't care if no-lifers max out the entire skill tree in a month or not.
I just don't want to see the average player's progression reduced because CCP isn't really willing to let them off leash by reducing the average reward per match in a regressive manner that hits lower level players harder.
If you want to remove the cap, fine. Just let the average player continue to get 72k SP per day with two hours play time per day. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
semperfi1999 wrote:Skihids wrote:CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:
Our original aims with the skill cap were to ensure players progressed through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players. After trying out a couple of different approaches, none of which were satisfactory, we have realized that the skill cap introduces too many other unacceptable compromises and we have decided to take a leaf out of AlexanderGÇÖs book and just cut the Gordian knot and remove the skill cap altogether. Removing the skill cap opens us up to the risk of not meeting the aims stated above, so we have tuned down reward levels a little to reduce that risk.
All actions have repercussions. You can't just eliminate the cap and declare them gone. There will ALWAYS be a significant difference between players, at least an order of magnitude, generally two. There are players getting 3,000 WP and 50 WP in each match. CCP isn't really willing to just cut the knot or they wouldn't be lowering the SP gain per WP. They don't want to throw the door wide open for the SP fanatics to rush through. The WP/SP curb is the new throttle that replaces the cap throttle. So you have to take a look at what effects THAT new throttle will have, and it isn't pretty. The experienced players will continue to receive the majority of WP's in each match and leave the lower level players to gain WP/SP at a rate 1-2 orders of magnitude less. So if the top earners are kept to a "reasonable" SP gain (as defined by CCP), the lower earners will be 1-2 orders of magnitude BELOW a reasonable rate. That low earning population is going to include 90% of all new players and most will lose patience with the glacial pace of progression. They won't be willing or able to put in 10 to 100 times the hours of the top earners to obtain a reasonable progression. Bottom line: The WP/SP curb is a regressive tax on new players that is only required because of the cap removal, and it will kill interest in the game. IE players who suck at games will have a hard time gaining as much SP as players who are usually an average or above average gamer.
Nearly ALL players new to DUST will be low WP earners.
How many will stick it out to earn enough SP to become average? |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 18:17:00 -
[4] - Quote
Titus Stryker wrote:Skihids wrote:semperfi1999 wrote:Skihids wrote:CCP Cmdr Wang wrote:
Our original aims with the skill cap were to ensure players progressed through the skill tree at a steady pace, to dis-incentivize 24/7 grinding and to maintain a manageable gap between casual and hardcore players. After trying out a couple of different approaches, none of which were satisfactory, we have realized that the skill cap introduces too many other unacceptable compromises and we have decided to take a leaf out of AlexanderGÇÖs book and just cut the Gordian knot and remove the skill cap altogether. Removing the skill cap opens us up to the risk of not meeting the aims stated above, so we have tuned down reward levels a little to reduce that risk.
All actions have repercussions. You can't just eliminate the cap and declare them gone. There will ALWAYS be a significant difference between players, at least an order of magnitude, generally two. There are players getting 3,000 WP and 50 WP in each match. CCP isn't really willing to just cut the knot or they wouldn't be lowering the SP gain per WP. They don't want to throw the door wide open for the SP fanatics to rush through. The WP/SP curb is the new throttle that replaces the cap throttle. So you have to take a look at what effects THAT new throttle will have, and it isn't pretty. The experienced players will continue to receive the majority of WP's in each match and leave the lower level players to gain WP/SP at a rate 1-2 orders of magnitude less. So if the top earners are kept to a "reasonable" SP gain (as defined by CCP), the lower earners will be 1-2 orders of magnitude BELOW a reasonable rate. That low earning population is going to include 90% of all new players and most will lose patience with the glacial pace of progression. They won't be willing or able to put in 10 to 100 times the hours of the top earners to obtain a reasonable progression. Bottom line: The WP/SP curb is a regressive tax on new players that is only required because of the cap removal, and it will kill interest in the game. IE players who suck at games will have a hard time gaining as much SP as players who are usually an average or above average gamer. Nearly ALL players new to DUST will be low WP earners. How many will stick it out to earn enough SP to become average? It is my guess that an average player can hold their own with as little as 2 million SP. Most people trying out the game should be able to get to 2 Million in a month.
You are far more optimistic than I am. New players will look at the cost of the skill tree, compare that to their 2-3k SP per day and opt to play PS2 instead. No new blood, no huge player base.
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Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 19:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Maximus Stryker wrote:
1. Ever players gets 24,000 SP per day in Passive SP
2. I am guessing that with the new 1WP = 1SP plus you still get SP for time in game (although lower than current rate) that a average player will still get 1,500 SP per match.
Ah, I'm assuming that there will be no SP for time in match.
Two reason for that:
1) CCP said they would nerf SP gain to contain the heavy players
2) To curb AFK SP farming. If you reward even 500 SP per match you invite massive SP farming. One Chinese SP farmer with a bit of automation can keep 100 toons in the MCC and get 50k SP every 20 min. Yes each toon will take a long time to become salable, but he's working in bulk and doesn't care. His return on investment is orders of magnitude better than actually playing the game. A Chinese SP farm with each person going for WP is one thing, but one parking 100 toons in the MCC is a game killer.
With that it would probably take a player totally new to DUST about 100 days to get competitive, and that's assuming perfect SP placement. Given my personal experience learning DUST I don't expect perfect placement for the majority of new players. Further I don't expect them to know that 2.5M SP will make them competitive. They haven't gone through all the builds we have to gain that sort of insight.
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Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 21:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
mollerz wrote:so hard work is punished and everyone must be equal...
socialist pinko quafe commies!! :D
You are correct to a point.
CCP does not want you to progress too fast and if they don't do it with a hard cap they will get the job done by reducing your average reward. That's the reference to "compromising our objectives"
Even without the cap CCP is NOT handing you the keys to the Porsche.
So your hard work will be punished.
Now everyone is NOT being treated equal because there will be a regressive SP tax on new players. There will be a1-2 order magnitude difference between players if you rely upon WP for the majority of SP awarded.
This completely compromises the stated objective of keeping players close together.
If we agree that it's a non-important goal we have only to decide if we set the "reasonable amount of SP" level at that earned by the hard core beta vet, or for the new player. If the vet gets the reasonable level (whatever that is), then the new player gets 1-2 orders of magnitude less than reasonable. If the average player gets that reward, then the vet gets more than "reasonable" and the new player less. I don't see how to make this work if the primary purpose is to keep a throttle on the hard core vets. The spread is just too large. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 23:12:00 -
[7] - Quote
Catal60 wrote:I honestly cannot see what the is with removing the cap. For one, there is an upper limit to what you can unlock with the stuff. And for two, what difference does a small universal increase in abilities matter when more battles are won by aiming correctly and moving around effectively than just standing there and gormlessly shooting each other in the head?
The biggest thing you get out of SP unlocks is the ability to use new items, yes. But those items are balanced by being incredibly expensive too. If you want to blow your entire match bonus on tier five equipment for all your slots, go ahead! Get sniped or run over by a tank and lose all that money.
/sigh But if you *must* keep a cap then please set it for at least a week. I don't much like feeling like I fell behind in the game because I had to spend my evening writing papers rather than playing DUST when I spent hours on it over the weekend, half of which just earning 75sp per match.
The "Deal" is that they aren't just removing the cap.
CCP is also reducing the SP awarded per match, dramatically slowing progress for new players.
And the damage bonuses from skills are not minor. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 12:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
To anyone claiming that two months of play will give you a maxed out role, so the cap is unnecessary:
The two month figure is aimed at the fastest moving player, the No-Lifer who let's say averages eight hours a day.
Let's say the Regular player can devote an hour a day on average.
Mathematically:
NL = 8R
Now NL also equals 2 months to max your role, CCP isn't giving in on that.
So making the substitution,
8R = 2 months
R = 16 months
So it will take a normal player a year and a quarter to attain the point where he doesn't have to worry about your total SP.
How many are going to hang around for that?
And when they get there what do they find? You have three other deep roles such that you can easily pull out your rock to crush their scissors.
That's great for the longevity of this game. |
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