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![Vaerana Myshtana Vaerana Myshtana](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_female_128.jpg)
Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
205
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Posted - 2013.01.18 15:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have seen a lot of valid criticism on the boards about people abusing the redlined team "safe zone" as a place from which to snipe, fire HAV guns, etc. I've experienced some battles in which one team knows they are losing and decides to sit behind the redline in the hopes of salvaging a better KDR. Furthermore, I've seen plenty of situations in which the winning team pins the losers in their redzone so badly that it is essentially a one-sided massacre (usually because the spawn points are exposed).
I agree that the team "safe zones" are a problem that encourages abuse, on both sides.
Proposed:
That off-limits zones be clarified as "Red Zones" which are off-limits to everyone, and "Yellow Zones" which designate team staging areas and are off-limits to the other team. Players should see their own staging area as a "Green Zone" on the mini map.
Red zones should still kill clones after a delay, as currently.
The yellow zones should kill members of the other team, as currently. In addition, no one should get any K/D or WP for actions inside the yellow zone.
Yellow zones should be like Las Vegas- what happens there, stays there. If you snipe from your own green zone, you get nada. If you snipe from the battlefield at someone in the other team's yellow zone, you get nada. Same goes for parking a tank and pounding away, nuking the safe zone CRU (Yes, I do this sometimes), calling in a strike, etc.
Clones and materiel are still lost, but there is no direct reward to the player for abusing the safe zone. The only motivation for actions in the yellow/green zone is in support of the mission objectives. |
![Severus Smith Severus Smith](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_1_male_128.jpg)
Severus Smith
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
163
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Posted - 2013.01.18 17:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
+1. I actually really like this idea. It removes most of the gripes people have about the redzone in a simple manner. |
![Zero Harpuia Zero Harpuia](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_male_128.jpg)
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.18 18:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
This... would work well. It'd probably get rid of those enemy tanks that park under the MCC too...
Still, this is a GOOD IDEA, but if CCP implements it we still need some non-idiotic spawn placement. As the OP notes, the only reason to do such with this would be to actually win the game for the team, which some people actually are interested in... and I'm tired of landing on enemy tanks when diving from the MCC. |
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Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
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Posted - 2013.01.18 19:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
has been suggested before, but still relavant. |
![James Thraxton James Thraxton](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_1_male_128.jpg)
James Thraxton
The Exemplars
75
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Posted - 2013.01.18 19:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
well first, if one team pushes another into the redzone, its due to the skills both teams. (the gaming term for that is a lockout) the only safe change i'd feel would be to count a death as two clone units in the redzone, but same points, to encourage people to escape/set up flanking maneuvers/spawn beacons |
![Zero Harpuia Zero Harpuia](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_male_128.jpg)
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2013.01.18 19:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
James Thraxton wrote:well first, if one team pushes another into the redzone, its due to the skills both teams. (the gaming term for that is a lockout) the only safe change i'd feel would be to count a death as two clone units in the redzone, but same points, to encourage people to escape/set up flanking maneuvers/spawn beacons
In Manus Peak, you can sit a tank under the MCC and murder everyone who has the NERVE to spawn. That isn't skill, it's CCP no knowing how to work a damn spawning system. Spawn beacons are NICE, but should NOT BE NECESSARY. The fact that they are speaks volumes about the map making ability of our official map makers(they suck).
Plus, this doesn't solve the issue of redzone camping on either side, it just makes it more irritating for everyone else. Norm-to-red get rewarded more by depleting the count twice as fast, and the red-to-norm team can't break out, or get's their clones sapped by a few redzone snipers who keep getting killed. |
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Y0UR NAME HERE
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
445
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Posted - 2013.01.18 23:52:00 -
[7] - Quote
+1 on this, it would def get more ppl red lined a reason if even to hop into lavs and go try to take objectives back. |
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Grenwal Hiesenberg
Shadow Company HQ
226
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Posted - 2013.01.19 00:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nothing will turn off Tuesdays noobs more than getting their whole team spawn camped, this had been brought up before and the time for CCP to act would be before the new player influx. |
![Vaerana Myshtana Vaerana Myshtana](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_female_128.jpg)
Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
205
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Posted - 2013.01.20 05:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:This... would work well. It'd probably get rid of those enemy tanks that park under the MCC too...
Still, this is a GOOD IDEA, but if CCP implements it we still need some non-idiotic spawn placement. As the OP notes, the only reason to do such with this would be to actually win the game for the team, which some people actually are interested in... and I'm tired of landing on enemy tanks when diving from the MCC.
Hehe.
I hate that. I really wish there was some way to shoot at them. |
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Fivetimes Infinity
Immobile Infantry
1086
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Posted - 2013.01.20 06:27:00 -
[10] - Quote
If one team loses all points, the game should rapidly end so as to make the concept of fighting in the redzone a non-issue. Being camped isn't fun, camping an enemy team isn't fun. If the game is so lopsided that one team gets trounced, a Battlefield-style depletion should commence so as to let everyone get out of the boring game and get into a new one which is hopefully better matched.
Otherwise, fighting from inside the redzone whilst the action is happening midfield is an issue primarily with snipers, and the problem isn't the redzone, the problem is that snipers have no reason to fight at anything less than around their maximum range. A hitscan weapon which is perfectly accurate and suffers no damage degradation due to distance doesn't really benefit from being closer to the target. This is a flaw in the weapon itself, not a flaw in the redzone.
The solution to redzone snipers is to simply fix sniper rifles. Make them skill-dependent, and make them benefit from being closer to the target. Add permanent sway to the rifle, even when zoomed in and crouched. Add bullet drop or, at least, bullet travel time. Make it harder to shoot small targets at a distance, due to the greater hinderance travel time/sway would have, and compel snipers to get as close to the action as possible.
This would solve the problem of redline snipers, as it would make snipers shooting at long distances much less powerful, and therefore less common or at least less impactful, while also helping to make snipers an actual part of the battlefield, rather than a thing existing as nothing more than a red chevron way off in the distance.
The issue of HAVs shooting from the redline can be solved by making HAVs, and all vehicles, require ammunition. Facilitate ammunition and ammunition replenishment as factors in vehicle usage. This wouldn't solve the issue entirely, but it would mitigate it, as spamming shots non-stop from far off would not be sustainable. The HAV would have to go back to some point elsewhere to rearm. Although, as HAVs don't actually spam from behind the redline much, changing redline-related stuff wouldn't be really useful in the first place. |
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KalOfTheRathi
CowTek
168
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Posted - 2013.01.20 07:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:This... would work well. It'd probably get rid of those enemy tanks that park under the MCC too...
Still, this is a GOOD IDEA, but if CCP implements it we still need some non-idiotic spawn placement. As the OP notes, the only reason to do such with this would be to actually win the game for the team, which some people actually are interested in... and I'm tired of landing on enemy tanks when diving from the MCC. I like the idea but it would not change that tank behavior. The tank would be in their normal zone and would be free to remain there. The problem you state can only be fixed by proper placement of the MCC and the Yellow Zone/Red Zone/Green Zone/That other Zone definitions. It could indeed be solved with no other changes than proper level design currently.
The biggest confusion today is there are two Red Zones and some of us do not seem to recognize that. Others do but detest vehemently that their victims having any safe harbor what so ever. You know, those fun loving murderous savages that CCP wants to market this game to.
Enjoy. ![Pirate](https://forums.dust514.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_pirate.png) |
![137H4RGIC 137H4RGIC](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png)
137H4RGIC
WarRavens
26
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Posted - 2013.01.20 08:14:00 -
[12] - Quote
My problem from not getting any reward from shooting people in yellow areas is this: They can shoot you and kill you. If you kill someone who poses a very real threat, you should get rewarded for killing them. I don't like the counter-idea of having to wait for someone to fire at you before they become an eligible reward target. That's asking to be killed. |
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Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
205
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Posted - 2013.01.21 04:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
KalOfTheRathi wrote:Zero Harpuia wrote:This... would work well. It'd probably get rid of those enemy tanks that park under the MCC too...
Still, this is a GOOD IDEA, but if CCP implements it we still need some non-idiotic spawn placement. As the OP notes, the only reason to do such with this would be to actually win the game for the team, which some people actually are interested in... and I'm tired of landing on enemy tanks when diving from the MCC. I like the idea but it would not change that tank behavior. The tank would be in their normal zone and would be free to remain there. The problem you state can only be fixed by proper placement of the MCC and the Yellow Zone/Red Zone/Green Zone/That other Zone definitions. It could indeed be solved with no other changes than proper level design currently. The biggest confusion today is there are two Red Zones and some of us do not seem to recognize that. Others do but detest vehemently that their victims having any safe harbor what so ever. You know, those fun loving murderous savages that CCP wants to market this game to. Enjoy. ![Pirate](https://forums.dust514.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_pirate.png)
The point of the proposals is that neither the tank camping the yellow zone spawn points, nor anyone in the yellow zone who attacks that tank would get WP or KD for their actions.
It might not stop all of the abuse but it would at least remove any scoring incentive. |
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Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
205
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Posted - 2013.01.21 04:37:00 -
[14] - Quote
137H4RGIC wrote:My problem from not getting any reward from shooting people in yellow areas is this: They can shoot you and kill you. If you kill someone who poses a very real threat, you should get rewarded for killing them. I don't like the counter-idea of having to wait for someone to fire at you before they become an eligible reward target. That's asking to be killed.
To be fair, though, if they are in the yellow zone, they get no reward for killing you either.
While the yellow zones would not stop all abuse, they would encourage teams to at least try to fight in the actual battlefield.
It would also reward the really good teams that force a "touchback" to the other team's yellow zone for laying in ambush rather than hammering the spawn points. From a game play standpoint I think that is more enjoyable than simply saturating the spawn points with lead and plasma- although I guess that has its charms, too. |
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Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
205
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Posted - 2013.01.21 04:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:If one team loses all points, the game should rapidly end so as to make the concept of fighting in the redzone a non-issue. Being camped isn't fun, camping an enemy team isn't fun. If the game is so lopsided that one team gets trounced, a Battlefield-style depletion should commence so as to let everyone get out of the boring game and get into a new one which is hopefully better matched.
While I disagree with you on snipers, I think this point has some merit. It might be worth it for CCP to come up with certain conditions that trigger an early forfeiture.
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![Zat Earthshatter Zat Earthshatter](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_1_male_128.jpg)
Zat Earthshatter
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
304
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Posted - 2013.01.21 05:01:00 -
[16] - Quote
I do appreciate the "yellow zone" concept. I really do - it would fix our issues with current map design, or at least discourage abusing them. However, anyone who's played the earlier stages - back before the E3 build - will know how this archetype of maps weren't really intended for this kind of redzone usage - which is allowing the problem. They were originally designed to be the final objective zone of a multi-stage, MAG-esque battle. The old design took different maps, and puzzle-pieced them together, with the redzones hidden well enough to avoid sniping to or from those zones. Say you placed the map "Biomass" at the end, then it would be set up somwhat like this:
{un-named attacker staging area}----------->[Crater Lake]--------->{Biomass - defender zone}
For the first stage, defenders got to use an entire base as a staging area, and it was completely hidden from the attackers by the first map stage. Once the first stage was lost, attackers moved up to the end of the first stage, while still having their fallback spawns hidden from fire. Maybe it was the mode, maybe it was that Crater lake was one of the best tactical maps CCP came up with. Either way, returning to one of those elements would actually help our red-zone problem. Sounds a little weird, but it would indeed help. |
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.21 05:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:I have seen a lot of valid criticism on the boards about people abusing the redlined team "safe zone" as a place from which to snipe, fire HAV guns, etc. I've experienced some battles in which one team knows they are losing and decides to sit behind the redline in the hopes of salvaging a better KDR. Furthermore, I've seen plenty of situations in which the winning team pins the losers in their redzone so badly that it is essentially a one-sided massacre (usually because the spawn points are exposed). I agree that the team "safe zones" are a problem that encourages abuse, on both sides. Proposed:That off-limits zones be clarified as "Red Zones" which are off-limits to everyone, and "Yellow Zones" which designate team staging areas and are off-limits to the other team. Players should see their own staging area as a "Green Zone" on the mini map.
Red zones should still kill clones after a delay, as currently. The yellow zones should kill members of the other team, as currently. In addition, no one should get any K/D or WP for actions inside the yellow zone.Yellow zones should be like Las Vegas- what happens there, stays there. If you snipe from your own green zone, you get nada. If you snipe from the battlefield at someone in the other team's yellow zone, you get nada. Same goes for parking a tank and pounding away, nuking the safe zone CRU (Yes, I do this sometimes), calling in a strike, etc. Clones and materiel are still lost, but there is no direct reward to the player for abusing the safe zone. The only motivation for actions in the yellow/green zone is in support of the mission objectives. I agree with and support this concept. +1 |
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Doshneil Antaro
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
24
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Posted - 2013.01.22 09:30:00 -
[18] - Quote
I think each team should have 3-4 smaller yellow zones per map, with a 4-10 min time limit inside it or there clone is destroyed. No points or kills added from inside, or outside counted, as well as a speed up till lose if a team owns no resources on the battle field. This prevents people from camping inside the red, as well as give them multiple outlets to regroup and get back on the battlefield and still have a fighting chance at turn the battle around. It would also make the game more skill based as you won't know exactly which spawn area (or what side of the map) the enemy would be coming from. This would force players to be more tactical, and help make noobs attempt to help their team, and not just act as Rambo's. |
![Vaerana Myshtana Vaerana Myshtana](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_2_female_128.jpg)
Vaerana Myshtana
ScIdama Endless Renaissance
205
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:I do appreciate the "yellow zone" concept. I really do - it would fix our issues with current map design, or at least discourage abusing them. However, anyone who's played the earlier stages - back before the E3 build - will know how this archetype of maps weren't really intended for this kind of redzone usage - which is allowing the problem. They were originally designed to be the final objective zone of a multi-stage, MAG-esque battle. The old design took different maps, and puzzle-pieced them together, with the redzones hidden well enough to avoid sniping to or from those zones. Say you placed the map "Biomass" at the end, then it would be set up somwhat like this:
{un-named attacker staging area}----------->[Crater Lake]--------->{Biomass - defender zone}
For the first stage, defenders got to use an entire base as a staging area, and it was completely hidden from the attackers by the first map stage. Once the first stage was lost, attackers moved up to the end of the first stage, while still having their fallback spawns hidden from fire. Maybe it was the mode, maybe it was that Crater lake was one of the best tactical maps CCP came up with. Either way, returning to one of those elements would actually help our red-zone problem. Sounds a little weird, but it would indeed help.
Thanks for the info. That would be really cool. |
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BursegSardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
55
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Posted - 2013.01.31 17:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:In addition, no one should get any K/D or WP for actions inside the yellow zone. ... Clones and materiel are still lost, but there is no direct reward to the player for abusing the safe zone. The only motivation for actions in the yellow/green zone is in support of the mission objectives.
Dear Xenu, YES! +1
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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2013.01.31 18:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
I think more people need to see this thread. |
![Coleus Rattus Coleus Rattus](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/avatars/avatar_4_male_128.jpg)
Coleus Rattus
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
25
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Posted - 2013.01.31 19:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
I like the idea.
But I would add another thing to the yellow/green zones:
If you are in one for more than, let's say one Minute per spawn, you stop getting ISK and SP until you are killed, have respawned and exited the zone within one minute after the last respawn.
That would allow people getting back in action without having to wory to stop getting match rewards, while punishing those pesky redline snipers that don't actually help the team effort. |
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YourDeadAgain76
Red Star.
133
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Posted - 2013.01.31 19:50:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vaerana Myshtana wrote:I have seen a lot of valid criticism on the boards about people abusing the redlined team "safe zone" as a place from which to snipe, fire HAV guns, etc. I've experienced some battles in which one team knows they are losing and decides to sit behind the redline in the hopes of salvaging a better KDR. Furthermore, I've seen plenty of situations in which the winning team pins the losers in their redzone so badly that it is essentially a one-sided massacre (usually because the spawn points are exposed). I agree that the team "safe zones" are a problem that encourages abuse, on both sides. Proposed:That off-limits zones be clarified as "Red Zones" which are off-limits to everyone, and "Yellow Zones" which designate team staging areas and are off-limits to the other team. Players should see their own staging area as a "Green Zone" on the mini map.
Red zones should still kill clones after a delay, as currently. The yellow zones should kill members of the other team, as currently. In addition, no one should get any K/D or WP for actions inside the yellow zone.Yellow zones should be like Las Vegas- what happens there, stays there. If you snipe from your own green zone, you get nada. If you snipe from the battlefield at someone in the other team's yellow zone, you get nada. Same goes for parking a tank and pounding away, nuking the safe zone CRU (Yes, I do this sometimes), calling in a strike, etc. Clones and materiel are still lost, but there is no direct reward to the player for abusing the safe zone. The only motivation for actions in the yellow/green zone is in support of the mission objectives.
+1 theres another post for this same issue and i couldn't find this one. Yes +1 +1 Cant stand redline snipers. And redlining although fun can get boring sometimes or if it happens tomany games in a row. LOL
+1![Pirate](https://forums.dust514.com/Images/Emoticons/ccp_pirate.png) Love the "line" idea. |
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