DUST Search - re: Cmdr Wangs post about heavies

Stinker Butt wrote:

DUST Fiend wrote:

This thread honestly surprises me. I feel wicked OP in my fat suit Roll

HMG's (not burst) need to overheat just a little bit faster. As it is right now, even before investing in the HMG operation (3% reduced heat build up each level) I haven't once overheated, and I can just sit there and hold down the trigger forever.

HMG's need to require more skill to use. Oh, and they need to do more damage at point blank range. I swear, if someone gets in my face, unless they stand perfectly still, I can never kill them Ugh

So you think HMG's are OP, but what about dropsuits? that seems to be what Wang was referring to.

To address HMG's, they should be feared. I can't think of any hollywood movies where the guy with the minigun didn't pwn everything in his path. And we're heavies, so the one thing we do is kill. We don't hack (much), repair, revive, replenish ammo, or whatever else gets people to the top 3 at the end of the match. Others can do that, and I'll do my best to provide cover by killing whoever approaches. I think that's the way it should be. I do overheat, and typically at the most in-opportune times. It's easily manageable, but I definitely let go of the trigger on occasion.

more sp to use? I'm cool with that. I think if you really enjoy playing the heavy, you probably won't mind investing more sp to be good at it.

I do wish that the cost of higher tier gear for the heavy was more in-line with others. We're not immortal, but you can't afford to die in high tier isk gear. And the cost/benefit ratio is too high.


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Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.16 22:18:00 - [1] - Quote Drommy Hood wrote: If anything they need a boost. My hmg vs standard assault rifle at say 50m and even with my superior Hp and my aurum gun I can still go down first if neither of us are missing shots that's because an HMG has a wide damage spread. The further out you are, the wider the "cone of fire" (Yes this is real terminology used by machinegunners) get, and the less rounds will strike on average per target. CCP has kindly included this effect for our benefit. So the Assault rifle is accurate at 50, because it is a point-fire weapon. the HMG is an area suppression weapon. Maybe 1 out of 10 of your HMG rounds are hitting AR gumby, when he's nailing you with 50-90% of his shots. The math is not in your favor. In CQC when his assault suit fills your aim circle, the odds swing wildly back your way because 90% of your rounds will hit him, and you fire three for every one of his. heavies work well in a defensive formation/position, but tend to get eaten alive when attacking unless there's ample cover and concealment. Do I think heavies are balanced? hell no. the ISK/SP cost versus effectiveness is wildly in the favor of assault and logistics. scouts are in a class all on their own. I'm doing phenomenally better as an assault than I ever did as a heavy, same with Logi over heavy. he only time fatsuits kill me is when they catch me by surprise.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.16 22:31:00 - [2] - Quote Stinker Butt wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: This thread honestly surprises me. I feel wicked OP in my fat suit HMG's (not burst) need to overheat just a little bit faster. As it is right now, even before investing in the HMG operation (3% reduced heat build up each level) I haven't once overheated, and I can just sit there and hold down the trigger forever. HMG's need to require more skill to use. Oh, and they need to do more damage at point blank range. I swear, if someone gets in my face, unless they stand perfectly still, I can never kill them So you think HMG's are OP, but what about dropsuits? that seems to be what Wang was referring to. To address HMG's, they should be feared. I can't think of any hollywood movies where the guy with the minigun didn't pwn everything in his path. And we're heavies, so the one thing we do is kill. We don't hack (much), repair, revive, replenish ammo, or whatever else gets people to the top 3 at the end of the match. Others can do that, and I'll do my best to provide cover by killing whoever approaches. I think that's the way it should be. I do overheat, and typically at the most in-opportune times. It's easily manageable, but I definitely let go of the trigger on occasion. more sp to use? I'm cool with that. I think if you really enjoy playing the heavy, you probably won't mind investing more sp to be good at it. I do wish that the cost of higher tier gear for the heavy was more in-line with others. We're not immortal, but you can't afford to die in high tier isk gear. And the cost/benefit ratio is too high. this is correct. there is no point to bringing a big gun on the field if said big gun does not offer a significant increase in overall firepower over small arms. Plus, given that HMGs start at twice the cost of same-tier ARs and the gap widens at each tier, I do not believe that the HMG should be nerfed to merely AR effectiveness. If I have to pay 100k ISK PER DROPSUIT for a proto HMG then goddammit I want 100k of destructive potential PER DROPSUIT. (actual prices may vary, but the point stands) Edit: and SCREW HOLLYWOOD. I've seen what miniguns can do IRL with my own eyes, and if I were on the recieving end i would be making peace with God on the spot. Let's just say the HMGs in this game are slightly less effective equivalently than a real life M-249 SAW. Here's a picture for reference M-249 SAW
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.16 22:36:00 - [3] - Quote Drommy Hood wrote: That's what I'm hoping for, right now, I'm wishing I'd spec'd scout and shoty again, but I'm hoping the heavy will be more formidable at the top end. Before the wipe and the reason I chose to spec into heavies was they where the only real rival I had on the battlefield as a shot gun scout. I'm sure ill get the hang of it and start coming consistently top of the board again soon (atleast I hope!! Spent far to much sp's on the heavy to pull them out again now). Don't buy the VK.1 proto. VK.0 is barely worth the cost, and even that is debatable. Most heavies stop at the Level 3-4 fatsuits due to the lack of anything really significant changing if you upgrade. I think you pay 100k ISK more for a couple points of PG/CPU is all. And Fitting a fatty isn't usually the problem.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.16 22:45:00 - [4] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Stinker Butt wrote: So you think HMG's are OP, but what about dropsuits? that seems to be what Wang was referring to. I think we could use a slight buff to PG / CPU, and it would be nice to see more shield variant heavies. I'm not a fan of the all armor heavy, I like having shield rechargers so I can duck in and out of cover to get more longevity out of my suit. It sucks knowing that I have to save up a little 1 million SP (that's gonna take a while....) to get to the next level of shield suit, which doesn't offer a whole lot extra over the L2 suit that I use right now. I don't really know though, I don't claim to understand balance. All I know is I eat people alive, especially when I'm rolling with a halfway descent squad you will have a nerdgasm when the caldari and winmatar heavies emerge from the primordial goo then. Both races primarily shield tank.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.16 23:30:00 - [5] - Quote iceyburnz wrote: The heavy suit feels about right in terms of armour hitpoints atm. Really not. there's no weapon that doesn't chew them up and spit them out in rapid order. heavies should be able to at least hit 1k HP total between armor and shields. At the proto level. But this doesn't happen.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 00:01:00 - [6] - Quote Panoscape wrote: Last build my type 2 heavy hit 1.1K HP with mechanics V, shield control iV, two complex shield extenders and one complex armor. So, a heavy is fine when you're all the way skilled and moded up. Sure hope they don't nerf it... I'd hate to have wasted all my SP, like I did last build when I specked into small and large missile turrets. Heavies should hit 1k with either armor tank or shield. you shouldn't have to overtank and get both.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 00:19:00 - [7] - Quote Moejoe Omnipotent wrote: The HMG has way too much range and a ridiculous clip size. People asking for a buff to heavies completely baffle me. and at long range they do absolute crap for damage, unless you stand still while they zero in on you. and there are HMGs that specifically sacrifice damage for extended range. Don't charge the heavy machinegun unless you have to. as a former RL machinegunner I can say that charging the machinegun is, in fact a bad idea. as a former machinegunner I can also say that being a machinegunner without any support is also a bad idea. The Imperfects and SVER and all of those guys don't make it look easy because they're good at being rambo. they do it by working well as a team.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 00:34:00 - [8] - Quote Moejoe Omnipotent wrote: Stinker Butt wrote: Moejoe Omnipotent wrote: The HMG has way too much range and a ridiculous clip size. People asking for a buff to heavies completely baffle me. I dont think anybody asked for the HMG to be buffed. They are talking about the suit. Clip size is balanced by the fact that it takes 10 seconds to reload - almost guaranteed death in the heat of battle. Too much range? I think most would disagree. The HMG is so effective already that there is no need for any sort of buff making heavies more powerful then they already are. If they were to buff the suit the HMG would need a nerf to make up for it. I don't think heavies were intended to be one man armies. They're supposed to be playing a support role (currently nobody uses it this way) and be an effective anti-vehicle class (which it's so bad at that anyone with flux grenades can play this role better). For the record: at no point are any of my arguments in favor of either buffing or nerfing HMGs or forge guns. My posts in this thread are SOLELY directed at the complete lack of real survivability, damage or utility increase between the advanced and prototype tier heavy dropsuits.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 00:44:00 - [9] - Quote that was a blanket statement, because the posts were getting off-topic and I was hoping to bring it back on track. The heavy suits at the prototype level need a boost or a price drop. The HMG is a completely separate issue and bluntly the HMG is easy to eliminate from the battlefield. TOO easy to eliminate given that a heavy dropsuit fit costs anywhere up to 4 times that of a assault for very little gained in destructive potential or survivability, since armor tanking is currently inferior to shield tank in every possible way. Edited: Look before you Post breakin Stuff
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 01:21:00 - [10] - Quote once the assault dropsuit players are running advanced dropsuits with advanced guns and advanced modules with the support skills dialled up to 11 we will be right back to where we ended last build, with heavy dropsuits being used as practice for easy AR kills, a mildly diverting activity I must say. at low levels the heavies are ferocious against militia, standard and some advanced. at advanced, heavies absolutely shred advanced. at proto, heavies absolutely wish they hadn't wasted the ISK and SP.

Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 03:00:00 - [11] - Quote I'm going to trust CCP more than believe they're NOT going to mindlessly make the most SP and ISK-consumptive class yet MORE easy to obliterate casually.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 04:30:00 - [12] - Quote KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: The MH 82 already has the lowest DPS of every weapon in the game. Even the the officer version (the Gaston) has less than a Toxin SMG. The assault and burst equivalents even less DPS. Rate of fire marginally makes up for this due to accuracy. Yes, its a powerfull weapon when used properly. So is a shotgun on a scout suit with kinetic catalysers and profile dampners. They kill heavys all the time. We dont yell OP over it. We cuss at the t.v. and then respawn. this is really the only thing you can do about it.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 04:53:00 - [13] - Quote KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: DPS=Damage Per Shot. ROF=Rate Of Fire No. the common use of DPS is Damage per Second. Damage per bullet is largely irrelevant in CQC for a heavy, and a source of intense rage and frustration at greater than 30 meters, kinda like a reverse laser.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 05:09:00 - [14] - Quote no. double armor half range wouldn't solve the problem. it'd simply make them more ineffective.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 05:25:00 - [15] - Quote you run from heavies by bolting behind cover. If I had a nickel for every person who complained about HMGs being overpowered and a dime for every time I've seen a heavy absolutely annihilate everyone on the field, I'd Have a 10-1 ratio of nickels to dimes. How is a class that requires 50% more expensive in SP and 400% as expensive per fit in ISK being dangerous on the field and capable of doing significant destruction unfair? Heavies must pay very dearly in order to be effective. Because in three weeks from now we're going to see heavies absolutely get their asses used as everyone's punch dummy. Unless they stay with two specific suits. In which case they break even. If you nerf heavies further, the SP cost and ISK cost needs to drop sharply.
Breakin Stuff Immobile Infantry 680	Posted - 2013.01.17 08:12:00 - [16] - Quote Stinker Butt wrote: James-5955 wrote: Huh... I've never thought of the heavies as weak in this build, I always find them extremely overwhelming unless they're militia fits. They take so much to kill and HMGs kill in an instant when in the right range and still have good range. I'm mainly an assault player but made a heavy today and capped it out on SP and after getting the type I suit I felt extremely OP lol. A bit slow, but eh, it's easy to keep within HMGs distance unless I spawn on the outskirts of a map. Diggin it, I could get used to being a walking tank. Fuse grenades are such a hard counter that it's ridiculous though. At your level, they may be a bit OP to others in militia gear, but the point is that it wont get much better as you advance. Just wait until you're level 5 with a few skills and see which gear you're still using. So if ccp decides to "balance" us in a negative way, then they will likely not be able to serve the role that they are intended. They've essentially said that the heavy suit is going to change for balance, so I'm curious what they're thoughts are about it. I know that I just have to wait, but i'm not sure that I want to skill further into it. Heavies kill. I don't understand why that upsets so many others. If you want some extra war points, throw a repair nanohive at my feet and I'll happily fill up. think of prototype gear with proto mods as 100% efficiency. Level 1 heavy is 70% Type 2 is 85%, level 3 is 93% and the rest drops sharply from there when you consider heavies. assault get linear gains. The heavies gain very little after type 2 armor, which you need amarr heavy dropsuits at 2 for. This is about as good as the heavy game gets.