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Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation
172
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've started to get back into Dust with the move and at first i didn't realize it but later on it became very clear. Clone Reserves are much more important in Skirmish. Now. This would make complete sense if it meant that there was coding directly involved but...Clone Reserves can't be affected directly by coding because they're essentially the spawn units of a team. Once a team 's members die 120 time, that's when the game is lost and the district is considered a casualty and loss of assets.
So I want to know how this came about. Is it because the game runs smoother and more players are able to kill effectively? Is it because deaths get logged into the Clone Reserve without much lag? Or is it just because so many players have came back from earlier BETA patches that they lead to the ineffectiveness of a team? Or maybe it's that big time corporation members are seriously grinding now to make it back to where they were?
In no way do I believe this is a bad thing. In fact, this is how it should be in my opinion where both teams really have to count their numbers and plan to not lose resources all while fulfilling objectives and taking points. In a way it might help increase team work but at the same time it might increase Lone-Wolfism because people who can actually go rambo effectively, as in killing without the need of a teammate, will lower the enemy's Clone Reserves.
This new state of things make Skirmish more than just one sided in terms of complexity. There are multiple angles one must look through now although to be honest this feature has been there from the beginning it's just that it's NEVER been this major.
Not only would I like to know how this came about but I want to know your opinion on this. I usually like a lot of the stuff CCP gives us in terms of updates and weapons and equipment BUT that's just me; and knowing me I have a bit of a bias and I'm also very limited in FPS experience when we're talking about diversity (I've only played a couple of FPSes and my main shooters for a while was MGO and MAG). |
Zat Earthshatter
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
304
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team full of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? Once that count hits 0, any who are still alive should be able to keep fighting, just without being able to respawn anymore (no clones in reserve). That way, we can fight to the last man/woman! |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
163
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team-ful of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? We should be able to fight to the last man/woman!
Too many ways to exploit this with redline and other stuff, especially if the team about to clones has just one or two bars left to go on the enemy MCC.
Im not saying it isnt worth discussing but it there would have to be a lot of coding done and a lot of secondary factors that need ot be considered to make sure it cant be exploited.
It also worth noting that the clone count doesnt drop until a person bleeds out. The problem now is too many bluedots die and think oh well i died im not gonna get revived anyway and if i do ill likely die again(which only effects the persons individual death stat but not the clone count).
So as clones drop it becomes even more important to revive players to keep the clone counts from dropping. |
Logi Bro
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
836
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:37:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gunner Visari wrote:Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team-ful of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? We should be able to fight to the last man/woman! Too many ways to exploit this with redline and other stuff, especially if the team about to clones has just one or two bars left to go on the enemy MCC. Im not saying it isnt worth discussing but it there would have to be a lot of coding done and a lot of secondary factors that need ot be considered to make sure it cant be exploited. It also worth noting that the clone count doesnt drop until a person bleeds out. The problem now is too many bluedots die and think oh well i died im not gonna get revived anyway and if i do ill likely die again(which only effects the persons individual death stat but not the clone count). So as clones drop it becomes even more important to revive players to keep the clone counts from dropping.
They could just make it so the game drops into overtime when the clone count hits zero, something like: "You now have 2 minutes." They could redline, yeah, but it won't get them anything, just wasting their own time. |
Gunner Visari
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
163
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Logi Bro wrote:Gunner Visari wrote:Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team-ful of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? We should be able to fight to the last man/woman! Too many ways to exploit this with redline and other stuff, especially if the team about to clones has just one or two bars left to go on the enemy MCC. Im not saying it isnt worth discussing but it there would have to be a lot of coding done and a lot of secondary factors that need ot be considered to make sure it cant be exploited. It also worth noting that the clone count doesnt drop until a person bleeds out. The problem now is too many bluedots die and think oh well i died im not gonna get revived anyway and if i do ill likely die again(which only effects the persons individual death stat but not the clone count). So as clones drop it becomes even more important to revive players to keep the clone counts from dropping. They could just make it so the game drops into overtime when the clone count hits zero, something like: "You now have 2 minutes." They could redline, yeah, but it won't get them anything, just wasting their own time.
2 minutes is more than enough time to run out the clock on the dwindling health of an MCC, especially when the MCCs fire at each other so in theory the team that clone the other team could have all nullcannons and still lose even though they cloned out the other team.
If they overtime also increased the redline to a smaller area like in ambush and that anyone who exits the area will have the same 15-20s countdown till they die then yes this would work. It also makes sense since the purpose of skirmish redlines is to reduce spawn camping but since noone is left to spawn back in their is no need for redline protection. |
Alaika Arbosa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Zombie Ninja Space Bears
47
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Posted - 2013.01.13 18:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
So when the clone count is down to 0, why not take the redlines away instead of making them choke the map tighter? |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1899
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Posted - 2013.01.13 19:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
I've played like 5 games of Skirmish in the past 3 months
Ambush is faster, simpler, you die less, and you get right around the same reward
Ambush > Skirmish. |
Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation
172
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 19:10:00 -
[8] - Quote
The way I see it...In Restricted High-Sec battles the Clone Reserves numbers are a guaranteed safety net for the teams. Not wanting to expend to much ISK and AUR on a battle that they're probably going to lose if it comes to that point, the cap and it's cut off have good reasons.
In Low-Sec or Null-Sec maybe such restrictions would be worked out between the factions. E.G. A major district is being fought over so Corp A and Corp B negotiate a Clone Reserve limit of 250 for a Skirmish where there is only one major point to fight over. Maybe this would be better suited for Low-Sec as I'd imagine Null-Sec would probably be even more riskier with no Clone Reserve Restrictions for the missions like what happened in the Tourney in the last rounds I believe...?
No Clone Reserve Restrictions would be incredibly risky because there is no negotiated "roof" for asset lost and the battle will only be one when a team withdraws or when the battle is actually lost. I digress.
Clone Reserves seems like a safety net, in economical terms, for a faction so that they do not expend so much that they end up losing in other ways (E.G. Winning a distrctict by using 20 percent more than the funding which means that later on the same district will have an underlying weakness in assets for defense because they can only wait for more funding and assets, thus making it futile to win the district as there is no true benefit in losing it before any benefits can be actually gained.) |
Zat Earthshatter
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
304
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Posted - 2013.01.13 19:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Roy Ventus wrote: In Low-Sec or Null-Sec maybe such restrictions would be worked out between the factions. E.G. A major district is being fought over so Corp A and Corp B negotiate a Clone Reserve limit of 250 for a Skirmish where there is only one major point to fight over. Maybe this would be better suited for Low-Sec as I'd imagine Null-Sec would probably be even more riskier with no Clone Reserve Restrictions for the missions like what happened in the Tourney in the last rounds I believe...? No Clone Reserve Restrictions would be incredibly risky because there is no negotiated "roof" for asset lost and the battle will only be one when a team withdraws or when the battle is actually lost. I digress.
*light bulb* One thing about DUST soldiers is, we use a lot more clones than capsuleers do. Enough so that they can't just grow 'em inside a dropsuit on-site, they probably have to be specially transported. Also, remember how one of our maps is a biomass facility? Our clones should probably have to be mass-produced at special PI facilites, likely on a Temperate world where there's more of the materials required for such feats. This way, you aren't just using up some arbitrary number that is either set or bought, you are actually using a resource that players put effort into, giving the fight more impact.
Clones PI production list: (processed raw materials) Biomass Oxygen Proteins Electrolytes |
Rayan Storm
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
358
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Posted - 2013.01.13 19:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
Roy Ventus wrote:The way I see it...In Restricted High-Sec battles the Clone Reserves numbers are a guaranteed safety net for the teams. Not wanting to expend to much ISK and AUR on a battle that they're probably going to lose if it comes to that point, the cap and it's cut off have good reasons.
In Low-Sec or Null-Sec maybe such restrictions would be worked out between the factions. E.G. A major district is being fought over so Corp A and Corp B negotiate a Clone Reserve limit of 250 for a Skirmish where there is only one major point to fight over. Maybe this would be better suited for Low-Sec as I'd imagine Null-Sec would probably be even more riskier with no Clone Reserve Restrictions for the missions like what happened in the Tourney in the last rounds I believe...?
No Clone Reserve Restrictions would be incredibly risky because there is no negotiated "roof" for asset lost and the battle will only be one when a team withdraws or when the battle is actually lost. I digress.
Clone Reserves seems like a safety net, in economical terms, for a faction so that they do not expend so much that they end up losing in other ways (E.G. Winning a distrctict by using 20 percent more than the funding which means that later on the same district will have an underlying weakness in assets for defense because they can only wait for more funding and assets, thus making it futile to win the district as there is no true benefit in losing it before any benefits can be actually gained.)
Yes but do remember. Is you open up your neo com and hunt around, you find a menu called Clones. At the moment, it is empty. What i assume will happen is that unless we use "militia"/run of the mill clones, we will have to PAY for our clones. That gives you two incentives in this case. A. Don't die cause now you lose much more than gear. B. Don't play like a risky idiot. You're lie is not valuable, but the clone is.
Hence, while there may be no clone cap, you still are running our of clones that you yourself own. If i lost 30 clones in one fight that lasts for 2 hours, i may not come back down. I will wait it our. And say the corp pays for our clones? That is still money! And i like to think that a good enhanced clone is more expensive than an assault rifle or a suit. I am thinking 100K plus for enhanced clones with cheaper variants being available.
Point: Sure, unlimited clones could end up like what you said. But it would be fracking expensive and not very smart for anyone in terms of net gain.
Yay, we won the fight. Crap, we are now bankrupt and have no clones left in personal resevoirs. There goes all of our land. |
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SHANN da MAN
D3LTA FORC3 Orion Empire
8
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Posted - 2013.01.13 19:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
DUST Fiend wrote:I've played like 5 games of Skirmish in the past 3 months
Ambush is faster, simpler, you die less, and you get right around the same reward
Ambush > Skirmish.
It depends on what kind of style game you play ...
If you just want to shoot and kill then Ambush is for you. If you prefer to try to capture objectives over just killing then Skirmish is your game. |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 19:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Clone counter ticks over when you respawn. Not when you first get killed.
The reason for this is that kill count and clone count are different. Each time you down your opponent that counts as a kill. But if that player is revived it does not count against the clone reserve.
The only time you remove a clone from the reserve is if you re-spawn. Then and only then will a new clone be used.
Players can manipulate this all they want and yes, there is some thinking involved. But I really like that a team can lose skirmish by running out of clones. It only makes sense. I also get really tired of blues that spam circle button the moment they get shot. A team of circle spammers deserves to lose if they die a lot.
All assets in battles are meaningful. When we get out of faction warfare and wherever it is that instant battle happens, corporations will have to buy and bring all of the clones that they think they will need to the battles that they fight. At least I hope this happens. It better happen. It will just be another layer in the strategy and scheming that will be part of fighting that I am really looking forward to.
Edit* So maybe the NPCs are cheap. But I am sure the Caldari or even the Minmatar don't appreciate mercs burning through their clones any more than a player run corporation (that had to pay for each and every one with hard earned ISK) would. |
crazy space 2100046106
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
879
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 22:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team full of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? Once that count hits 0, any who are still alive should be able to keep fighting, just without being able to respawn anymore (no clones in reserve). That way, we can fight to the last man/woman! yes |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
248
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 01:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team full of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? Once that count hits 0, any who are still alive should be able to keep fighting, just without being able to respawn anymore (no clones in reserve). That way, we can fight to the last man/woman!
No no noo, please think:
Do you REALLY want to go hunt the last sniper up on the high mountains where even scouts have trouble climbing up?
Or deep in the redline, hmm?
In that model, getting YOUR SP and ISK rewards depend on other people to finish the match, which in that model might take some 1-10 minutes. No thank you for staring at the stats screen while others play. |
HowDidThatTaste
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
2242
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 01:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bad idea.
Imagine running around the entire map looking for one merc hiding somewhere!
His team wins because the 2 minutes it takes for us to find him the mcc blows up. So just no bad idea for skirmish
As for ambush the only way something like this could work would be to tighten the red line forcing the last players together in the middle for a final battle. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1591
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 02:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team full of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? Once that count hits 0, any who are still alive should be able to keep fighting, just without being able to respawn anymore (no clones in reserve). That way, we can fight to the last man/woman!
I want to stab the 'X' number of people who liked your post with my nova knife for +1-ing your idea. This is a terrible idea for skirmish and it's useless and pointless even for ambush given that the last player will simply hide and ride out the remaining time on the clock. |
Zat Earthshatter
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
304
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 02:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:
I want to stab the 'X' number of people who liked your post with my nova knife for +1-ing your idea. This is a terrible idea for skirmish and it's useless and pointless even for ambush given that the last player will simply hide and ride out the remaining time on the clock.
Ok, maybe I didn't finish the idea. How about, once the count hits 0, the timer drops to 30s. They get that amount of time to fight just in case they were winning the Skirmish match requirements while expending troops faster. If they all die, other side wins. If the timer runs out. other side wins. If their victory condition (destroyed MCC, or the attacker condition) is filled within 30s and before the last soldier dies, THEY win.
I just needed to clarify futher, but I understand why it would sound silly with my first post. |
fred orpaul
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
211
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Posted - 2013.01.14 02:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team full of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? Once that count hits 0, any who are still alive should be able to keep fighting, just without being able to respawn anymore (no clones in reserve). That way, we can fight to the last man/woman! this! |
Roy Ventus
Foxhound Corporation
172
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 02:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:I only find one issue with clone counts: When you hit 0 reserves remaining, don't you still have a team full of clones, you know, Alive and fighting? Once that count hits 0, any who are still alive should be able to keep fighting, just without being able to respawn anymore (no clones in reserve). That way, we can fight to the last man/woman!
Nah. At that point the battle is already lost because you're limited to the remaining forces.
Other negative things that would come from this would be people redlining to wait out the battle. |
Maken Tosch
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
1591
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 04:44:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zat Earthshatter wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:
I want to stab the 'X' number of people who liked your post with my nova knife for +1-ing your idea. This is a terrible idea for skirmish and it's useless and pointless even for ambush given that the last player will simply hide and ride out the remaining time on the clock.
Ok, maybe I didn't finish the idea. How about, once the count hits 0, the timer drops to 30s. They get that amount of time to fight just in case they were winning the Skirmish match requirements while expending troops faster. If they all die, other side wins. If the timer runs out. other side wins. If their victory condition (destroyed MCC, or the attacker condition) is filled within 30s and before the last soldier dies, THEY win. I just needed to clarify futher, but I understand why it would sound silly with my first post.
There's just one problem.
What if the team that has no clones left has just a couple of bars left on their target MCC while their own MCC is still relatively healthy? If you see how long is takes for the MCC to lose a single bar of armor, you can see that the team that has no clones left will still lose even if they wait it out. I'm not sure I can call that fair. |
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