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Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.01 19:51:00 - [1] - Quote I kinda agree with Zitro. I feel the whole OP discussion was confounded by what a player has speced into. It's why i said people really need to post what level they have certain weapon skills speced.. Operation, PROFICIENCY, Sharpshooter(to a degree), WEAPONRY, heck even Capacity and Reload can all effect the value of each weapon and take the base differences of a weapon and make them even stronger thereby widening the gap to make them seem OP. For instance a 3% difference isnt all that much but when you take 15%(Lvl 5) and apply it to the base difference b/w a std AR and a proto AR before the nerf, it becomes clear that it isnt the weapon but the way the skill points were applied. That is not an imbalance of the gun it is the natural progression gap difference b/w a newb and a vet who has speced into those skills. This isnt a gear winning the fight, but rather the MMO aspect of time spent playing making the difference in the fight. I don't mind that aspect of the game because now i know which skills i need to spend time building up if i want to be on a level playing field with an imp or any other player who has more time in the game and by result has more SP spent in certain skills. Fact is these nerfs would not be necessary or warranted if new players were not restricted by a cap until they started nearing a global cap level set by the cumulative sum of total CAP points possible since launch. If players could catch up they wouldnt care. Also if there were other playgrounds for vets to play in and the proper "tuning" was done in terms of ISK rewards and ISK cost of the higher tier gear to dissaude their use in the current matches then there would be a lot less nerf threads. Frankly once FW, and low/nullsec drops and if they ever do change the cap parameters to allow for newer players to "catch up" all these weapon balancing measure will need to be reevaluated. I dont think by any means this should be the final balance of weaponry. There are just too many confounding variables that need to be examined that augment the natural gaps b/w the tiers of weaponry.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.01 20:22:00 - [2] - Quote Yea, frankly its only cause of this nerf that i can compete. Im a freelancer with no corp and the first thing i did with my aur was buy miltia BPO for everything so that every game i played was pure profit. Because of the nerf, i havent felt the need to spec into adv dropsuits at all instead focusing entirely on circuitry, mechanics, shield boost, shileld control. Weaponry, operation, sharpshooter. By making my free stuff stronger and myself less squishy alongside the current nerfs i can compete against almost anyone including proto suits. Especially with flux nades and MD or exile AR. But thats the point i didnt try spread myself too thin i made sure to build my character right. It's like a house, start with a good foundation and then everything else falls into place. Im 10 days into my new "main" character and it only has 1.7m SP. I know exactly where im going and im not even thinking about getting to logi III-IV variant dropsuit when i can maximize the efficiency of my militia by building up my natural shield/armor/pg/cpu through skills and with it better extenders/armor. Edit- I think thats the mistake ppl make is they spec into higer level dropsuit too early rather than spending their SP to get the most out of their free/basic stuff. Especially BPO stuff which sucks since they currently can only be bought with AUR. But by maximizing that you can generate enough profit to buy the skill books in quick time while having enough SP to boost the things that matter. I mean build up the natural max shields and armor along with weapon damage with SP is a far better long term financial plan than trying to sustain that through ISK consuming modules. But like i said it really comes down to "spending" the AUR on BPO, which by the way is <7K AUR=$3.50 to fully run BPO everything and have every BPO equipment if you only purchase the one dropsuit suited for your class. Heavies obviously get screwed and just another example of why they aren't as OP as ppl want to believe they are. I mean im thinking about my build and how it will be a month or two from now, not how will i be ready by next week. What sucks is the reset is coming and all of this is for naught.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.01 21:05:00 - [3] - Quote Integral Zan wrote: Mr.Z actually posted on the forums, this is going to be a wonderful new year Or the sign of a yet unknown Apocalypse.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.01 21:48:00 - [4] - Quote 24601 -2 wrote: I have read aclot of posts hate'n on the weapon flattening they did for this build. I was kind of thinking that this build is all about collecting data and tweaking the combat mechanics of the game itself. All of the maps are smaller and they force us into close quarters matches. I mean I don't see people perched on top of the mountains sniping the whole game right now. Just keep killing each other and providing CCP with feedback and data. I don't expect the weapon stats to stay where they are or for them to keep iron sights on all the ARs like they are now. The problem with a gaming community is that we all feel like we are getting cheated when we die...a lot. The tendency is to hate whatever weapon we get killed by a lot and then every one cries nerf. Dust is not an ordinary FPS. The weapons cant all be the same but they can't all be drastically different either. Especially with skills adjusting the effectiveness of them. I can imagine finding a balance that everyone likes will be impossible. I agree with Zitro's comments about getting out of the militia gear if you want to cry about an unfair advantage. The players using proto gear have spent time, sp, isk, and real money to get there. If you cant keep up with them in your militia gear then maybe you should find a different server. I hate seeing a squad of Zion, imperfects, or LOTIS on the other team. But I still fight them. It feels really good when you contribute to their death knowing they lost more in that one death than they are going to make in the inevitable win they are about to get. Who said their win is inevitable? Against blueberries definitely, but im sure there are few other corps unmentioned that might take exception to that assertion.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.01 22:13:00 - [5] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Well Im going back to staying poor at 20k isk and militia gear and continue to prove that militia gear is not 'underpowered' Play more ambush games. Especially after you start hitting diminishing returns in terms of SP. The games are shorter and the payouts are the same, this will increase your profit margins very quickly. Also might help getting the BPO stuff, yea i know paying AUR sucks and perhaps you have some principle against it. But for $3.50 worth of AUR you can fund a full BPO suit, best of all the tier I BPO suits have at least 1 more high powered module, increasing their durability just a bit more. I mean there is little else worth paying real money for but for items that wont be lost when you die is definitely worth the money, especially when you consider you get it back next reset and official launch by which time the secondary market will hopefully have a way for you to get it with isk, though by the time you generate that much isk not sure if you will want them.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.01 22:34:00 - [6] - Quote Eternal Technique wrote: Ha. Militia gear is not even close to being as good as proto gear. I have seen proto logis with over 800hp. If there is a militia suit that can even come close to this please let me know. My guess is that a militia logi can get about 1/3 of this hp. Same is true with the other proto suits, this is just the most obvious example. That 800HP is worthless when there is no amount of shield tanking that can withstand a single militia level flux nade 1200HP all shield damage. Once ive beridden you of shield your armor tank alone isnt going to withstand the barrage of MD fire coming your way or AR headshot(well that you have a better chance cause im super squishy and not a perfect shot). Didn't say they were comparable in HP, i said that they werent specing into at the current moment from a financial point of view, at least not before specing into core skills. My build is 10 days old. My militia gear, actually its a tier I BPO suit with tier I modules and BPO equipment, it cost b/w 6800 and 18,000 ISK a suit. Yes my logi is weak and squishy it running 181 and 302 with two BPO shield extender and two Tier I armor plates. with RE, FLUX and bpo hive and repair that suit cost 17K, oh thats with regular MD. My AR BPO that i use for ambush is 11K. But my shield boost is at 4 and shield control at 2 with mechanics at 3 all of which make those modules go a little further because of the natural bump in tank and shield regen. With the current weapon nerfs that is more than adequate to survive most 1v1 encounter. I can survive a lot of 2v1 3v1 with my MD but not my AR. Regardless in 10 days i have 23M ISK, i have enough to fund the skill books i need and in 2 months time buy proto gear like ima boss. So when i do get my skills where they need to be im not struggling over the money. Point is you need to create a set that is pure profit generator regardless of what it might do to stats and then build your stats back up on the back end, if they are that important to you. The way i see it in this game money talks, everything else is just a distraction.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 00:56:00 - [7] - Quote Eternal Technique wrote: Gunner Visari wrote: Eternal Technique wrote: Ha. Militia gear is not even close to being as good as proto gear. I have seen proto logis with over 800hp. If there is a militia suit that can even come close to this please let me know. My guess is that a militia logi can get about 1/3 of this hp. Same is true with the other proto suits, this is just the most obvious example. That 800HP is worthless when there is no amount of shield tanking that can withstand a single militia level flux nade 1200HP all shield damage. Once ive beridden you of shield your armor tank alone isnt going to withstand the barrage of MD fire coming your way or AR headshot(well that you have a better chance cause im super squishy and not a perfect shot). Didn't say they were comparable in HP, i said that they werent specing into at the current moment from a financial point of view, at least not before specing into core skills. My build is 10 days old. My militia gear, actually its a tier I BPO suit with tier I modules and BPO equipment, it cost b/w 6800 and 18,000 ISK a suit. Yes my logi is weak and squishy it running 181 and 302 with two BPO shield extender and two Tier I armor plates. with RE, FLUX and bpo hive and repair that suit cost 17K, oh thats with regular MD. My AR BPO that i use for ambush is 11K. But my shield boost is at 4 and shield control at 2 with mechanics at 3 all of which make those modules go a little further because of the natural bump in tank and shield regen. With the current weapon nerfs that is more than adequate to survive most 1v1 encounter. I can survive a lot of 2v1 3v1 with my MD but not my AR. Regardless in 10 days i have 23M ISK, i have enough to fund the skill books i need and in 2 months time buy proto gear like ima boss. So when i do get my skills where they need to be im not struggling over the money. Point is you need to create a set that is pure profit generator regardless of what it might do to stats and then build your stats back up on the back end, if they are that important to you. The way i see it in this game money talks, everything else is just a distraction. That fit has at least 1 armor plate, meaning even without its shield it is on equal footing in terms of hp with your average militia fit It has 2 basic plates in fact. But yes thats the point i used the modules to help make up the difference, but more advanced suits have more modules so they can either have more tank or more damage or keep the same and add something else like hacking or dampener or regulator or whatever else they desire.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 01:34:00 - [8] - Quote Mr Zitro wrote: I find the problem with armor plates is movement speed gets hit too hard, and I think it should NOT effect my turning speed. But if it is going to do all that then it should reduce recoil a little to so there is a plus for actually using it instead of just hp meh, i think there has to be a penalty for stacking armor plates, i cant see why it should have a beneficial effect on recoil, i mean i guess you could argue that a stiffer chasis should be immune to the guns recoil, but that would just cause TAC AR abuse. The ratio of movement speed at the basic level seems fair, 3% for 65 HP, double stacked its 6% for 130hp. But at higher levels its just silly, For 87 hp i get 5% penalty which is 10% for 174 if stacked and for 115HP i get a 10% penalty. I can get more hp from stacking two basic and suffer 4% less movement penalty, granted i am using an extra slot, but really there are few other low power slots that i can care for atm, hacking module and maybe regulator but even then i find those to be a waste of a slot better served by tanking, as far as fits that have 3 or more slots for me id forgo any additional tanking for an armor repair, most i would consider doing is one basic one adv and a good repair module, but still hard to justify an additional 2% in movement penalty for an additional 22 points of armor, better off stacking shields. Unfortunately movement speed is movement speed, i havent noticed it affect my turn speed which is governed by my x sensitivity. It does of course effect my strafing speed. But of course there needs to be some sort of penatly for tanking o/w there will be no risk in using the armor plating, way i see it you are effectively making yourself more like a heavy class so why shouldnt you suffer the same effects that a basic heavy suit has which has more armor. Fortunately for us, field mechanics increase up to 25% max armor and has no effect on movement speed.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 02:00:00 - [9] - Quote William HBonney wrote: I think the thought is that shield extenders do not have negatives and they also have a natural recharge rate. Shields outclass armro in almost every way. I do not know why CCP hares armor. Yea i understand that, but tbf shields tanks are favored more than armor tanks. I think shield tanking a infantry soldier has one obvious drawback that cant be ignored. I think there are plenty of things that devour shields like Takeru Kobayashi. Flux and Lazer come to mind and they can fry shields instantly at even the basic level in the way armor plating simply cant be. Also the hp gains of shield extender is miniscule even at the proto level. Now granted they regenerate but that regeneration is often useless until you are specced into skills that make them better but again even the 3x or 4x stacking a proto extender can be utterly decimated by one good flux nade. 1200HP eats infantry shields well like Takeru Kobayashi. I mean for me currently i find double stacking basic extender so pointless i stopped using them in a lot of my suits in favor of stacking damage mods which have been far more useful in winning 1v1, especially at AR optimum range since i can dodge bullets like a ninja(not really but just long enough to win most fights). There is also the increased CPU cost of running shields so there is that, granted it isnt much but it is something.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 02:42:00 - [10] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: DUST has two major issues. 1. Too many people use militia gear (Although you might be making money you are drastically reducing your survivability against players using better gear) 2. People don/t know how to build their characters. ( I was playing with a friend of mine earlier and was a bit annoyed he couldn't build his character correctly..) CCP really does need to add an auto skill system for the people who dislike going through menu after menu in order to make their character stronger. in terms of infantry battle, the only REAL reason as to why people cried things were OP is simply because they run militia gear or they have no idea as to how to fit a character properly. The flattening of not only the weapon damage, but also the dropsuit HP values were completely unwarranted, considering everything was balanced within their specific gear tier as it should have been. Yea but tbf your corp has had plenty of time to build characters and take them to the proto level. Now i agree with you that the nerfing of proto stuff sucks, but currently there is only one sandbox for everyone to play in, as a result your crew and everyone else who runs tanks and proto gear against everyone else who maybe have a few weeks to a month or 2 in the game simply dont have either the SP or the ISK or both to run at that level with any sustainability. As a result those new to the game can't compete and their only recourse is to either stop playing or complain. CCP doesnt want them to stop playing each player is additional raw data that helps them make a better analysis of the current game and whatever this arena will ultimately be. Additionally they wanted to see more proto gear run hence the greater payouts. Im by no means flaming you when i say this but perhaps part of the blame in these nerfs belong with you guys and others who constantly ran proto everything outside of corp battles or against other teams you knew to have proto gear. Im not putting that squarely on your shoulders that belongs to every vet who's been around since E3 and decided to have a feast of all the newbies. Granted i get it you're bored and their isnt a new playground for you guys yet and thats why it sucks, id probably do the same thing out of sheer boredom too. Point is once the sandbox opens and there are new avenues for you and everyone else at your SP/ISK level these pub areas wont be a place you guys will want to come because the ISK rewards wont be worth even the loss of a single proto setup. It will be a safe harbor for miltia/std gear to earn their stripes before graduating to the levels of the game where you should be playing at currently but isnt yet available. It's at this point i think the old norms and differences between the tiers should return so that it wont be this current lopsided pubstomp fest in which nobody but the vets will want to play since there isnt a safe harbor for the newbies. When they add FW/lowsec/nullsec and PVE i hope they do return the way the were before because truly that is how they should be anyone who thinks o/w just doesnt appreciate RPG's and the influence that they should have on this game. To put it another way the ppl whove been around since E3 are now the AP level students being forced to take HS level subjects when they should have already moved on to college by now, except the college is a few months from being constructed so you're stuck. Granted my view maybe a bit skewed i only have a total of 2 weeks in this game so i dont know what it really was like in codex having only 4 days in that build before chromosome dropped, and now with this new build i definitely dont see the value in graduating.

Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 03:02:00 - [11] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: We haven't brought this upon ourselves seeing as CCP forces everybody to play in the same sandbox, back in early precursor there was a battle-finder which had gear restricted matches. Proto-type battles were anything goes. If militia players wanted to join the battles they KNEW what they were getting into. Most of the nerfs were really uncalled for (outside of the vehicle missile launchers) CCP needs to get rid of the STUPID MATCH MAKING. (WHOEVER WANTED TO PUT MATCH MAKING INTO THIS GAME NEEDS TO BE FIRED) Bring back the old battle-finder with the different lobbies people could join. Whoa i didnt mean it like this is ALL your fault, i stated that CCP screwed up by not having a separate sandbox for you, I didnt know there was a battle finder where you could have gear restricted matches, my guess is that the player pool was too low and it didnt work out well. Or the more likely "its too complicated" whining threads probably popped up and killed the "server" lists type of match selection in favor of the simplified just let me press this mode and let the game do the work for me cause im too "insert diminutive slur of choice" to figure it out for myself and too proud to ask. But that said once the sandbox was unified and one and the same for everyone it was clear as day to see what would happen. Nobody was going to want to play against anyone who crushed them based on gear, especially when they found out there was no way to avoid them cause the player pool is small and to try to catch up to a decent level of fighting would take at least a month or two, because of the skill cap. (Except other h/c players like me who think of things like this in the long term not short term). Lets face it if new players were able to skill up unrestricted by a CAP until they reached a global cumulative cap all these issue would have been dead in the water. It was either give me a chance to fight back against these guys, either nerf everything so its more "balanced" or give me the opportunity to grind and catch up, "oh i cant grind and catch up" "F it" nerf everything i want my "balance". Ive just summed up the basic psyche of what has transpired in the minds of the majority of the players that were debating this issue, take a moment and think about it you know that was the root cause for most of your complaints/arguments about proto gear.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 03:15:00 - [12] - Quote Read the above post. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=450939#post450939 And please stop taking it as a personal attack, i dont blame you guys for this in the sense you are the immediate responsible party for this, i simply look at the progression of events that led to this and simply state that without this particular events the ppl who are proned to complain have no basis for to argue. Now whether CCP should have listened is entirely a different thing and obviously the ppl who complained rather than sucked it up and thought about the game on a more long term level are to blame for that, but would they have complained without being stomped by proto gear of course they would have their newbs everything is OP until they can do well with it. Heck i guarantee if you all ran ADV gear they complain ADV gear was OP. Also i didnt imply or state that is fell entirely on the shoulders of imps, i said that every vet who decided lets use proto and haze the newbs created this atmosphere among ppl who didnt and wouldnt know any better. Yes just because a piece of cake is in front a fat kid doesnt mean the fat kid has to eat it, dont buy into the stereotype, that fat kid might aspire to be skinny and exercise some self control. I mean this is a beta, lets not crush all prospective players before they get a chance to learn and appreciate the finer points of the game. Ultimately CCP should have not listend but we as a community recognizing that we had all these advantages should have taken them under our wings and showed them the way. Some people arent as quick to learn new things like you or I. It took me 20 mins of reading all the infantry skill descriptions and about 3-4days of playing to understand how each skill would help or not help my playstyle. But not everyone that comes to this game is going to be that quick or familiar with RPGs, to do that and start thinking about a character build and where it should be week 1 week 2 1mo 2mo etc.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 03:34:00 - [13] - Quote HECATONCHIRES GYGES wrote: This game isnt getting dumbed down at all...you guys brought down the TAR nerf on yourselfs..... Actually by bringing the weapon tiers closer together and the previous changes in the hp of differences of the dropsuits has in effect made "thinkiing" about creating a good character factoring in not only core skills but specialization skills unnecessary and thus in effect "dumbing" down the game. If all one now needs to do be successful is focus on core skills and not think about gear choices like i currently do the game has in fact been "dumbed" down. Notice the quotations because by "dumbed" i mean requiring less forethought and more UPnP type gameplay aka another vanilla shooter with easy to digest character progression. Now with regards to the arguments about leveling the playing field etc etc etc these are other issue entirely and one that have other confounding factors and root causes for which those arguments are based upon and the differences in gear was the easy scapegoat that provided the "easy" solution.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 03:44:00 - [14] - Quote Wasn't or didnt mean to say what you do is wrong, I admitted i would have done the same in your position. Im just saying the cause and effect of what happened next cant be something that should be shocking, surprising, or unexpected. Something to be angry, annoyed and upset about totally. Same thing happend to the MP game that i was godlike in which was ACB. We were kings, noobs complained, things got changed, we were kings again noobs kept complaining and things were changed again. Cycle never ends it just the unfortunate fact of the gaming industry that changes are often going to be made for the lowest common denominator and unfortunately that isnt the hardcore, the hardcore may keep the game alive in their hearts but its the other guys who do it with their wallets, even though you'd think it would be the hardcore in the end its a numbers game and there just isnt enough of us compared to the casual.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 19:49:00 - [15] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Milita gear ftw tbh Then again i did skill up to use some salvage i did obtain but really overall i just stayed in milita when out of a tank because why not, its cheaper and is fairly effective, hell tweek the loadout right and you can have a advanced gun on a full milita get up lol but why bother for that extra bullet or 2 The incentive to lvl up your weapons and dropsuits has gone, all you get extra slots/damage and PG/CPU but for the investment of ISK/SP and time its not worth it overall And that is the primary point of this post. Granted i think Zitro could have done a better way to polish argument. Its a shame since i do agree with some of their points but it becomes very hard when the responses are very antagonistic not just from them but also toward them. Frankly all the residual corp rage/hate from the tourney just needs to end cause all it is doing now is bleeding into every thread on this forum and blocking any reasonable debate over the issues in this game. Let me sum up the vast majority of threads ive read these last 2 weeks. Someone from Corp A says something, it may be something constructive and well thought out however. Corpmember from Corp A jumps on bandwagon and says something derogatory Corp B say ahh u mad and butthurt Corp A, nah man get better scrub; lulz Corp A member: Great post Corp C: You just mad that skill is now the main deciding factor now that you dont have x, y,z. Corp A: Whatcha talkin bout you're not even on my level scrub, as evidence that we still PWN. Yes this is really productive. Now back on topic. I think the point of this thread is that because of the recent weaponing flattening, there is no longer a need to invest SP into weapon skills and everyone just focuses in on tank, creating a very boring plain vanilla shooter in which constructing a character has little to no impact when it should as this is both an FPS and an RPG and the argument that new players cant compete is not a good enough excuse to eliminate it. The problem is the current single shared playground that we have that necessitates this current model until the full playground can be unlocked. As a result the reason the militia gear is predominant if the current "advantage" is not justifiable given the cost to benefit analysis. There is a case to be made that the ISK requirements should have been adjusted to match the nerf as well which it wasnt. The larger issue is when we do have other playgrounds if people who are new should be able to compete with vets in those playgrounds in basic gear. I say they should not . This annoys FPS purest who believe that anyone with "skill" should be able to go into any part of the game enviornment and be able to compete. My philosphy and what i think others would agree with is that if a player has "skill" they will be able to specialze the proper core skill needed to compete in those environments inside of a 1-2months which is a short duration of time in an MMO universe. Now in terms of being able to finance the gear, yes the obvious answer is they wont be able to finance it on thier own hence they will need to find a corp. If the player has "skill" then the corp will want to "invest" in them by providing them top gear until they reach a point where the corp can see a "ROI"(return on investment). What a lot of players seem to want is the ability to compete at the top levels without the necessary investment of time, SP, or ISK. Im saying that shouldnt be in the EVE universe, i think there has to be a time to build your character period during the initial phase of your in game career o/w there is no point in having ANY RPG elements at all. As these changes occur, the payouts for this current arena we play in need to be reduced dramatically so that even the loss of a single proto suit would be devastating. However the people who can afford it will still show up now and again to pubstomp hence why they should return the gear restriction matches. Or simply make highsec a militia/std restricted zone.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 20:54:00 - [16] - Quote Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Decent post Gunner. As I continue to say, this game should be about RISK. People need to learn to manage risk. What level suit should I bring out this match where I have some highly skilled opponents and I want to see how well I compete? What level fit should I run normally to make ISK but still be effective? What type of playerbase are we going to have if we get a bunch of people without the attention span to manage to spend enough time and effort to get SP and ISK to get themselves into lowsec and nullsec? We need people that are at least willing to figure out a build, earn the SP and learn to manage the RISK of making ISK match by match. If people can't manage that I don't even want them in game. I want this game to be successful for CCP so it stays around but I want a complex deep game that rewards players with MORE than ONLY FPS skill. I want an FPS Eve. The gear flattening that arose from whining about pubstomps (again the nerfs haven't affected any of the Imperfects KDR, mine has gone up) have led us further from that game. Agreed and agreed, i think this is the fundamental divide b/w FPS purest and guys like me who love comp MP as much as I love skyrim and FF games. Its the RPGer in me that doesnt mind if gear overpowers skill at the basic levels because in time a person can acquire gear, skill is either possesed, developed or just doesnt exist. For everyone that uses the straw man argument that a new "skilled" player cant compete in this model i say it isnt the model that is effecting you it is the fact that new players are hit by the same CAP restriction as everyone else, if CAP restrictions were adjusted to take into acct when a person begins their character compared to the global cumulative CAP points possible from day 1 than all these issues about it not being fair to new players would be dead in the water. It is this one factor that is the source of all the frustration and bickering among the playerbase. Change this and everything else can go back to the way things were because those who truly care about competing at the highest levels will continue to grind to accumulate the needed SP to spec into the skills they need to compete.
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.02 21:28:00 - [17] - Quote SoTa PoP wrote: Telcontar Dunedain wrote: Decent post Gunner. As I continue to say, this game should be about RISK. People need to learn to manage risk. What level suit should I bring out this match where I have some highly skilled opponents and I want to see how well I compete? What level fit should I run normally to make ISK but still be effective? What type of playerbase are we going to have if we get a bunch of people without the attention span to manage to spend enough time and effort to get SP and ISK to get themselves into lowsec and nullsec? We need people that are at least willing to figure out a build, earn the SP and learn to manage the RISK of making ISK match by match. If people can't manage that I don't even want them in game. I want this game to be successful for CCP so it stays around but I want a complex deep game that rewards players with MORE than ONLY FPS skill. I want an FPS Eve. The gear flattening that arose from whining about pubstomps (again the nerfs haven't affected any of the Imperfects KDR, mine has gone up) have led us further from that game. First half - I agree with completely, RISK is important and people should consider this game as close as poker as possible- but that second half... IF you want this game to succeed you'd find ways outside of your own world to get a larger player base active and assertive about playing this game. Sometimes that means that your personal bias and opinions get shoved to the side so that a larger group of people can enjoy the game - which is what CCP already stated they wanted. Yes but many of the players who play this game may be coming from a FPS only background with no experience or understanding of RPG games. Now i agree one path is to make it easier for them to get into the game quicker, i think the better option is to flesh out the tutorial sections better but more so verbally and textually direct players to these forums, specifically training ground so they can LEARN to build their own characters. And for those who wish to not endure that create prefitted clones with some sort of standard skill progression that will auto skill up for them based on the class of character they choose, of course if the person want to be a pilot/vehicle operator they would need to make that decision ahead of time so that they either auto skill in infantry or vehicle or perhaps create a slider function that can allocate the points in an automatic fashion but still provide some level of user input this model of course would need to occur in a fashion that perhaps would not create a great build but a decent one speccing into skills like capacity and rapid reload or other skills that an advanced user would forego in a manual build due to their relative low usefullness as opposed to other skill, basically im trying to say the auto SP system should work in a manner that will make a decent character but in no way would be as good as someone who allocated SP manually and knew what they were doing, however if they dont know what they are doing and screw it up then of course the auto system would have created a better build, but thats due to manual user error(it punishes dumb user error while rewarding smart user decisions). Would that be a good idea?
Gunner Visari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 163	Posted - 2013.01.03 00:36:00 - [18] - Quote Regis Mk V wrote: ForumPolice wrote: Regis Mk V wrote: If the gear is flattened would the better player come out on top in a gun fight? The way it was before the better geared person could beat the better skilled player. The way things were before made sense in terms of gear vs gear which is balanced. Militia scrubs complaining about getting gunned down across the map, because they either cant properly spec a character, or run militia gear by choice most certainly deserve to get smashed for their refusal to use their best. So then you don't want a game based on skill you want a game based on skills? I don't know about you but I don't like the idea of oh he's better geared then me I should tuck my tail and run. Yes thats correct. You should tuck your tail and run and realize you need to develop your character and make it better so that you are on equal footing in terms of gear at which point "skill" will prevail.. The pont you missed that i made earlier is that given the current state of the beta with a single playground for all players that type of gameplay is not yet feasible AND be sustainable. But once lowsec/nullsec is brought into the game and make the zone gear restricted than that model will work because you won't run into them unless you venture into territories that your character build isnt ready to tackle.(this is just like any RPG in which you try to take on enemies/quests before you are properly leveled to tackle the challenge). The other side of the coin they need to tackle under this type of setup is that they need to allow new players to continue to acquire SP without diminishing returns until they reach the level the current Global SP cumulative total (Max SP possible/wk x Weeks since launch). So that latecomers who like to play competitively and are hardcore in their own right can have the opportunity to play with the big boys. However the current counter argument to that is that after 2-3mos of hitting the CAP every week(4-6 m SP) is sufficient enough to build a character and get the needed core skills to lvl 5 and be have access to the most important gear items to compete at the higher levels of the game. The counter to that is well it is difficult to fund: The short simple answer is if you truly have the "skill" a corp will find you and fund you, if you're corp is "poor" but "rich in skill" then EVE corps will fund you to take down their enemies. Thats pretty much the divide and the sum of the major points of contension in this game to date. Thanks for reading.

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