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Maximus Creed
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
68
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Posted - 2012.12.28 11:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
I summarize the problem in this post.
A number of solutions have been proposed, however, most have flaws of one sort or another:
- Weekly SP cap - Players would hit the cap early in the week, then spend days earning no SP. Very annoying.
- Daily SP cap - as highlighted in the linked post above, this favours everyday players, but leaves behind those who play only 3 or 4 times a week for the same number of total weekly hours.
- Weekly/Biweekly cap, that increases by a fixed amount each day - Good for every day players and players who can play at the end of the week, but not those who can only play at the beginning of the week.
In light of this, I believe the following solution solves many of the problems (I notice 5Y5T3M 3RR0R also suggested this here):
1-week rolling cap:
- In any one-week period you can only gain a maximum of 700k SP (for illustrative purposes, to make the numbers nice)
- Each day at DT, 100k SP are added to your SP cap, up to a maximum of 700k
- If you haven't played for a week, you can log on and earn 700k in one day (albeit you would have to play for hours!)
- The rate at which you earn SP should be constant until you hit the SP cap, at which point it should be zero. This means the same number of hours are required to reach your SP cap, no matter what play patterns you have.
- A player should be able to view his SP cap at any point.
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Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
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Posted - 2012.12.28 12:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
i agree with the solution you provide. Especially the constant SP earning. Imo, this only would fix the issues with the weekly SP cap. As the only reason why people reach cap quickly is because of a to high SP income during first 4-5 games that can get you to reach more 40% of the week cap |
Lion Redstar
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
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Posted - 2012.12.28 13:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
May I +1.. +2.. +GêP this? The above sounds like a "Micro solution to macro problem". No more "diminishing" as that makes me feel I have a second job I have to attend everyday and you really don't wanna make your players feel "forced" to play. Please, make it so CCP. Pretty please? With sugar on top? :) |
Odiain Suliis
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
112
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Posted - 2012.12.28 13:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Nice solution, but there is some open questions:
1. Is this 1 week SP cap transferred to 2nd weeks cap if you don't hapen to play that much and reach 1st weeks cap, and to subsecuent week caps?
If it is then there is this thing where players would populate all 3 charachter slots to gain/farm that 'weekly SP' potential into a huge pool that they could use in latter date to speed level a char.
This also favours those players that have created their accounts/chars early, if one is of the opinion that this is a issue.
Also this favours those that have multiple PSN accounts and therefor could have multiple DUST accounts. This also leads to possible 'selling' of DUST accounts and chars that have forexample 10mil ' weekly SP pool' to burh through.
And in my opinion how one does in battle should affect how much one gets SP from that game. |
Maximus Creed
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
68
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Posted - 2012.12.28 13:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
Odiain Suliis wrote:Nice solution, but there is some open questions:
1. Is this 1 week SP cap transferred to 2nd weeks cap if you don't hapen to play that much and reach 1st weeks cap, and to subsecuent week caps?
If it is then there is this thing where players would populate all 3 charachter slots to gain/farm that 'weekly SP' potential into a huge pool that they could use in latter date to speed level a char.
This also favours those players that have created their accounts/chars early, if one is of the opinion that this is a issue.
Also this favours those that have multiple PSN accounts and therefor could have multiple DUST accounts. This also leads to possible 'selling' of DUST accounts and chars that have forexample 10mil ' weekly SP pool' to burh through.
And in my opinion how one does in battle should affect how much one gets SP from that game. In answer to your question, a cap would not roll on to subsequent weeks.
In fact, weeks have nothing to do with it at all.
The SP pool if you like would be a hard cap at 700k SP, and at each daily downtime you get 100k added to the pool, up to a maximum of 700k (which for simplicity, happens to be one weeks worth of 100k daily increments).
An Example:
- I haven't play for a few days, my SP pool is 600k.
- I play 3 games, gaining a total 90k, my pool is reduced to 510k.
- After downtime the next day, my pool is increased to 610k.
- I don't play. After DT the following day, pool is increased to 700k.
- A month later a come back to dust, the pool is still 700k, I play 15 hours straight and get that entire 700k. Pool is now at 0.
- After DT the next day, pool is back up to 100k.
etc...
So, as long as you play weekly, you could potentially keep up with the top guys.
As you rightly allude to, there is no mechanism for preventing earlier account for having more SP than later accounts, but that is also the case with purely passive systems as in EVE. The aim is to eliminate 'the grind', not to have everyone on an equal footing.
I also agree that how many SP one gains in battle should only be influenced only by their performance in battle, which is why I don't propose any diminishing returns, but this is a relatively minor point. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.12.28 18:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
I just saw your thread Max, which is ironic considering the thread I just put up.
Cross Atu wrote:The concept is simple (and has been used elsewhere).
1. CCP defines the max SP gain per week (sans AUR boosters) that they'd like to see.
2. At live launch a global counter begins which tracks total SP gains.
3. Game client checks current character SP against the global counter to determine SP cap.
This method creates a 'pool' effect allowing players to be rewarded for their efforts without constraining their play style/times, yet it still maintains proper skill progression in line with CCPs balance plans. Using a 'pool' will also solve the "Casual vs Hardcore" dilemma that CCP has stated they're trying to balance for. AUR boosters could maintain the same overall effect as CCP currently plans (+0.5x gains and cap)
The above addresses the cap on active skill gains. The anti-grind could be altered as follows.
Establish a minim SP gain per match equal to WP earned within that match.
Again a simple fix which keep play more rewarding and doesn't alter the current balance as the "minimum gain" is a mechanism within the anti grind not within the cap it will not afford anyone the ability to grind more SP, rather it will simply maintain a slightly more rewarding match by match experience when reaching the same point.
Ideas above are my first attempt at addressing the issues I've seen raised in the many skill point related threads. Feedback and constructive discussion are welcomed, trolling and/or one liners will likely be ignored.
Cheers, Cross
Not identical be we're clearly thinking along the same lines. |
ArMaGeDoN The Cat
Systems Federation Coalition of Galactic Unity
157
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Posted - 2012.12.28 18:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think this one is the best. (1-Week Rolling SP cap) |
ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2012.12.28 19:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
I wish that the cap didn't taper off at the end. make it a little more linear so that the last 10% dosen't take 4x longer that the first 90% |
Eddie Dingle IX
Doomheim
54
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Posted - 2012.12.28 19:46:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm a fan of the idea that the gains are consistent and then go straight to zero once the cap is met as opposed to the current slow tapering down to zero. |
SoTa PoP
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1772
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 23:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yea, I'd prefer to just hit my cap then get teased with 100-400 SP gain per match when getting close. |
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Anyanka Shadowmane
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
80
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Posted - 2012.12.28 23:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Eddie Dingle IX wrote:I'm a fan of the idea that the gains are consistent and then go straight to zero once the cap is met as opposed to the current slow tapering down to zero. +1 |
RECON BY FIRE
BetaMax.
51
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 02:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Personally the only thing I will support is a constant rolling cap thats starts from day 1 of the game. It can be daily or weekly I dont care. As long as it continually increases and gives everyone a chance to earn their way to the same level as everyone else. Definately with no diminishing returns either. You should be able to earn all available SP until you hit the cap and then earn nothing until the cap is increased. None of this stupid 500 SP per game wondering if youre close to hitting the cap or not. |
Deveshi
WarRavens
144
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 02:46:00 -
[13] - Quote
Why is there a skill point cap anyway?
I love Dust, I want to play Dust, and I want the rewards for my kills. Just because you don't want to play as much me I should be punished? Where is the incentive to play there?
I would like to remind people that this is a first person shooter, and in Dust I am a merc. This is not Eve and I am not a capsuleer. First person shooters require practice to get good at them, this is also reflected in the SP. Capping my SP is not going to make you any better and it is not going to stop me shooting you in the face.
All you are going to achive with weekly SP cap b*****ks is those of us who love playing Dust and want to play regularly are going to get pissed off (like we already are) and will end up only playing once a week.
Guess what that means... I, like many others will not be buying as much AUR. Whats the point? Your SP cap negates any AUR we spend on skill boosters anyway.
I say f**k the people that don't want to play Dust as much as the rest of us, after all, it is the regular players who are spending more money on this game. This is a game where the object is meant to be the harder you train the better you are. You want to be as good as us? Then stop trying to spoil it for the rest of us and play the f**king game!
Even if there is a cap right now its vastly overpowered. It reset on wednesday and 2 days into the week im receiving <5k SP for over 1500 WP in a match.
That Sir, is nothing but bulls**t! |
DestrukterDust
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
12
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Posted - 2012.12.29 02:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
+1 good solution |
KEROSIINI-TERO
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
248
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 05:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
@Deveshi and some others: The OP didn't discuss whether or not SP Cap is needed or not, he compared different models and offered new one. That's an another topic.
Initially it seemed that OP was just one of those forever rolling models, but after close thinking that's not the case. It is actually an ok model.
but, OP, realize that hitting that daily absolute zero SP cap is like hitting a brick wall. Imagine for a while how it feels while playing... Why not softer? |
Deveshi
WarRavens
144
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 07:55:00 -
[16] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:@Deveshi and some others: The OP didn't discuss whether or not SP Cap is needed or not, he compared different models and offered new one. That's an another topic.
Initially it seemed that OP was just one of those forever rolling models, but after close thinking that's not the case. It is actually an ok model.
but, OP, realize that hitting that daily absolute zero SP cap is like hitting a brick wall. Imagine for a while how it feels while playing... Why not softer?
I got that dude, I'm simply expressing my opinion that the cap is BS all together. Why punish people who play the game in favour of supporting those who dont give a s**t? This is not a sub game so the number of people playing will not be the main factor lining CCPs pockets. It is the regular players who want to get the most out of the game who will be buying aurum.
This seems like a classic issue of cutting off your nose in spite of your face! |
Lion Redstar
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 08:50:00 -
[17] - Quote
@Deveshi: I get that there are ppl who don't like the SP cap in any way, but that's the model CCP chose. We have to live with it. I wish ppl would see this and stop complaining "why" is there and instead they start looking for a SP cap model that would fit most of players style (like the OP does), more constructive posts can only help. Whine about something too much and ppl (including CCP) will start ignore that. Yes, I come from EVE and there is a kind of SP cap. And yes I played other games and most of them did not had a SP cap like this but still almost all of them had some kind of limitations about how much SP/XP/xyzP you could get doing something. It's just another model. Adapt. |
Deveshi
WarRavens
144
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 08:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
ANY CAP ON SP RENDERS BOOSTERS OBSOLETE.
So can someone remind me why we would be paying for aurum? Ah, thats right there is no longer a point!
What a shame, no more income for CCP, no more Dust 514, look what you did you a*s*o*e! |
Lion Redstar
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 09:14:00 -
[19] - Quote
This is not a discussion about boosters but I'll go with it. Are the boosters obsolete with the SP cap? Yes.. and no. The short term boosters (1-3 days) would still come in handy for ppl who only have couple of days available to play and wanna catch up (read as: wanna use their accumulated SP pool). The 7 days might be useful for ppl who have a hard week and only have 1-2h to play everyday. The 30 days might be obsolete but I guess that might be just me not finding them a use YET. |
Deveshi
WarRavens
144
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 09:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lion Redstar wrote:This is not a discussion about boosters but I'll go with it. Are the boosters obsolete with the SP cap? Yes.. and no. The short term boosters (1-3 days) would still come in handy for ppl who only have couple of days available to play and wanna catch up (read as: wanna use their accumulated SP pool). The 7 days might be useful for ppl who have a hard week and only have 1-2h to play everyday. The 30 days might be obsolete but I guess that might be just me not finding them a use YET.
so essentially its a con unless CCP explicity state the cap and its extent piror to you purchasing boosters. |
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Lion Redstar
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
66
|
Posted - 2012.12.29 09:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Deveshi wrote:
so essentially its a con unless CCP explicity state the cap and its extent piror to you purchasing boosters.
Unless CCP change the way the boosters work (hint: make them so you can pause them ) Anyway, looking at the OP idea, I took the liberty to make a spreadsheet that might reflect better (I think) the model. Please take a look and let me know how does that look. Note that you can play with the 'SP Used" values as you want, the rest is locked but you can see the formula used. Daily SP cap model |
nakaya indigene
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 18:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
This still doesn't address the marketed audience. The people that get aurum and play Eve are the regulars. Regardless of what people think of ccps decision. ccp will not make nearly as much money with all of the constrains put on sp. I play Eve and I'm aware of the hardcore groups In it. They spend lots of extra money on alts and Plex for a competitive edge. Putting a cap on sp goes against ccps philosophy. That's right Shanghai office. I'm looking at you. |
kellyn whiteheart
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
54
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 20:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
my 2 isk is this
make it a total cap on SP no matter when you started ur character. so my character is made on day one cap is 100k day 2 its 200k a new player starts his character on day 2 his cap is 200k. make it so players can catch up SP wise even if the vets started on day one and they started 3 months later. granted it would take a lot of playing.
that or just have no skill cap. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 20:22:00 -
[24] - Quote
Why not have the sp diminishing return based on the last 100k daily amount?
It would remove the need to grind the last bit out, since if you didn't get the last bit of sp it would rollover to next day, and the diminishing return threshold would be that much higher.
This would prevent the annoying 0sp point games. If say somebody stopped when sp was at 1/2 rate at say 20k sp left, the next day they get 100k added to cap and would have 120k to go, so the 1/2 sp point would now be at 100k. So, if they stopped at 1/2 sp every day for a month they would only be 20k down from if they ground out the last bit every day.
I think an alternate benifit should kick in once over the sp cap, like extra salvage. Then active boosters would be purchased by people that can play limited amount each week, and people that want to max sp to start collecting more salvage sooner.
A similar salvage bonus could apply first hour each day, like MAG's happy hour, to get people logging in each day, if that is desired by ccp. |
Deveshi
WarRavens
144
|
Posted - 2012.12.31 21:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
Still believe that the SP cap is a easy escape route for a larger issue and it will have dire consequences in the future. Please see this link for an alternative suggestion to the SP cap. |
Odiain Suliis
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
112
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Posted - 2013.01.09 10:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is a copy&paste from general discussion about this subject, with examples to illustrate and few ideas to expand on this subject. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=459499#post459499
Odiain Suliis wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:DJINN leukoplast wrote:Chunky Munkey wrote:It does mean that someone who can only play at the beginning of the reset gets less sp than someone who plays later on. An all-time accumulating cap with diminishing returns seems the only viable option to me. It wouldn't matter if somebody played from the beginning or got all the SP at the end, the numbers would be identical. Why would you think they would be different? Think about it, lets say you played every day and reached the cap of 27k (rounded from 27.2k to make example easier). Monday - 27k Tuesday - 27k Wednesday - 27k Thursday - 27k Friday - 27k Saturday - 27k Sunday 27k ----------------------Total = 189k Now lets say you only play one day, and it's the last day before the reset, Sunday. So you grind all day long and at the end, reach the rolled over SP from 6 days plus the 7th days cap. Which would be 189k SP. No difference. And if you only play the day after the reset? Just have it similat to that example, but allow continous 7-day roll over. So that there isn't a fixed SP cap reset day. Example1:total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Monday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Tuesday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Wednesday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Thursday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Friday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Saturday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Sunday 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Monday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Tuesday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Wednesday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Example 2:total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Monday - 10k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 17k Tuesday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 44k Wednesday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 71k Thursday - 70k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 28k Friday - 55k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Saturday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 27 Sunday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 54k Monday - 81k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Tuesday - 27k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0 Wednesday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 27k Example 3:Monday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 27k Tuesday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 54k Wednesday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 81k Thursday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 108k Friday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 135k Saturday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 162k Sunday 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 189k Monday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 189k Tuesday - 0 -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 189k Wednesday - 216k -- total 7-day SP cap pool= 0
This model has been suggested before in these forums. edit: Also one possible way that this could be enhaced would be to have AUR bought item that you could plug into your clone to have extended SP accrual pool and that item would be one time per buy use only. Once activated, item would be consumed. And by having it a in-game item would also mean that it would be buyable/sellable in secondary marcetplace for ISK. You have 2week holiday coming IRL that you know tht you won't be able to play DUST. You would grind and hit your 7-day SP accrual cap, so that accrual pool is now 0 SP. Eccentiaaly you now can have 7days off of DUST, without 'loosing' potential SP.
- Lets say you buy 1x '7-day SP pool accrual extension licence' that costs X AUR.
- You plug it in to your clone and activate it.
- Now you have that initial 7-day pool + this bought 7-day extension pool totalling 14-days.
- After that 14-day holiday, you come back to DUST and have 14-day worth of SP to grind through.
Caveats to this: There should be a limit on how many extensions can be used back-to-back, because without it, there would be a 'incactive' toons sitting on these extenders just to accumulate SP. edit 2: (Added here from my post below)And for the argument of what about those players that come 6 moths later or 1 year later to game? My opinion is though luck. And more to the point is this misconstruded opinion that one needs to 'catch up' in SP to the max levels to be competetive. No they don't. All you need is to have certain ammount of SP to level those critical skills that give +X% dmg, +XHP and weapon of choice proficiencie skill. These skills are 'core skills'. After one has trained these up, it's all about ones versatility and adaptability to different situations in battlefield. In other words, low SP charachters compete with spceialication. High SP charachters have versatility advantage in battle, but not advantage of superior gear. (Once one has leveled up those 'core skills')
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Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 11:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
Universal constant rolling cap > weekly rolling cap. Simple. Why CCP haven't done this already? No idea. |
semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
317
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 13:53:00 -
[28] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Universal constant rolling cap > weekly rolling cap. Simple. Why CCP haven't done this already? No idea.
QFT
This would be perfect. Making a universal cap where those who play alot will hit it every day after a little bit of play but players who cant play every day can earn tons of SP in a single day to make up the progress that they missed out on and if the can make up enough they will hit the same cap as the no lifer. |
Tony Calif
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
2002
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 13:59:00 -
[29] - Quote
Actually semperfi, you'd never hit the cap. Because by the time you finish a game, there will be a few hundred more SPs added onto the ticker. So you play another game an more SP is added... So on and so forth. It's so bloody simple I can't understand why CCP haven't done it yet. |
Tectonious Falcon
The Southern Legion
395
|
Posted - 2013.01.09 14:08:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote: It's so bloody simple I can't understand why CCP haven't done it yet.
This applies for a lot of things. |
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semperfi1999
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
317
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Posted - 2013.01.09 15:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Tony Calif wrote:Actually semperfi, you'd never hit the cap. Because by the time you finish a game, there will be a few hundred more SPs added onto the ticker. So you play another game an more SP is added... So on and so forth. It's so bloody simple I can't understand why CCP haven't done it yet.
I see what your saying. I was thinking of a daily "lump sum" of additional SP but this would work as well. No diminishing returns for players who arent already right up against that cap. In the previous build I would have some 30 - 40K SP games. This is not a bad thing if you are far away from the cap. This would also allow new players who are skilled to gain SP fast enough to be able to compete with vets in a short amount of time as long as they spend their points wisely. |
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