DUST Search - A great build is horrible because of this one thing!!!!

Goat of Dover wrote:

Next I want to compare damage from AR tier to AR tier, then AR to MD. The difference in the AR tier to tier is in the DPS over time not shot to shot. Yes people say oh it deals 341 a second. Yes this is true, but like you stated you miss with a good bit of them due to kick movement a being hit yourself. So lets say you land 5 to 6 out of 10 shots, 170 damage per second on the lowest tier rifle with no mods and without weaponry buff. Go up a tier 7 out of 10 shots you are now doing due to kick reduction. The DPS is now increased to 224 damage in one second, that is almost a complex shield mod difference there. this is all without weaponry and damage mods.

Next lets do MD to AR. Yes there is a MD that can do 378 damage in one shot, but this is the breach variant. It fires slower and the radius is reduced severely and so is the splash damage. Lets just compare the standards to start no point in getting to many numbers in there. The standard compare at MD 225 a sec on a direct hit, the AR at the chances and hit probability I gave you earlier is 170 a sec. This is with a direct hit. Now switch to splash and the numbers go to MD 115 to AR 170 still. On the prototype end, you have the MD doing 270 on a direct hit and 138 on splash. With the AR doing again with they chances and hit probability from earlier 224 a sec. Throw in the MD weakness to shields and their ability to do damage to multiple tangos at once. Then in CQC with less cover they are better. Put distance like say Bravo to Charlie on the four point and It is the AR all day. This is written up as a 1v1 and with no damage buffs from anywhere.


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Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.20 14:37:00 - [1] - Quote Okay Slick I would like to actually compare the situation change as far as combat and weapons go and put in my suggestions. Not trolling ignore the fools and lets talk logic here. The skirmish maps have not shrunk(cannot speak for the ambush don't play it often). They have also added much more objects by adding instillation in new places to force corners and cover. By doing this they have played to both sides. You now are generally closer to the MD user than before so it is a lot more dangerous than before. They have also helped out the AR user by applying the cover everywhere and allowing for new elevation points for tactical advantage. The disadvantage is now people have to use cover wisely to hide for a MD. Next I want to compare damage from AR tier to AR tier, then AR to MD. The difference in the AR tier to tier is in the DPS over time not shot to shot. Yes people say oh it deals 341 a second. Yes this is true, but like you stated you miss with a good bit of them due to kick movement a being hit yourself. So lets say you land 5 to 6 out of 10 shots, 170 damage per second on the lowest tier rifle with no mods and without weaponry buff. Go up a tier 7 out of 10 shots you are now doing due to kick reduction. The DPS is now increased to 224 damage in one second, that is almost a complex shield mod difference there. this is all without weaponry and damage mods. Next lets do MD to AR. Yes there is a MD that can do 378 damage in one shot, but this is the breach variant. It fires slower and the radius is reduced severely and so is the splash damage. Lets just compare the standards to start no point in getting to many numbers in there. The standard compare at MD 225 a sec on a direct hit, the AR at the chances and hit probability I gave you earlier is 170 a sec. This is with a direct hit. Now switch to splash and the numbers go to MD 115 to AR 170 still. On the prototype end, you have the MD doing 270 on a direct hit and 138 on splash. With the AR doing again with they chances and hit probability from earlier 224 a sec. Throw in the MD weakness to shields and their ability to do damage to multiple tangos at once. Then in CQC with less cover they are better. Put distance like say Bravo to Charlie on the four point and It is the AR all day. This is written up as a 1v1 and with no damage buffs from anywhere. So really it seems they both have an advantage in different areas of the field. The main issue we have is now with the new IS on the AR most feel like they have to be with in 15M to kill someone. Practice some get a little bit away and you will see how good the AR is still. Yes the MD is more deadly now because you are closer to it. Yes the AR IS is different but plays better into the CQC that they have forced on us than it did with a scope. TAR needs a damage buff a major damage buff by like around 200%. So it hurts real nice like on the business end, but doesn't really allow it to play CQC well. So it is more of a suppressor weapon as opposed to a breach weapon since we already have that. The AR gets put the dot on them and pull the trigger advantage here I am sorry it takes more skill to get a good hit with the MD than it does with the AR. The issue I see is the radius on the MD at operation lv 5 is 6m with a freedom that cover a big area. So maybe a small nerf on that would be good, and I mean small not chop 2m off each one so it is a precision gun that takes time to get there and the bullet can be easily dodged. The AR no idea for making it better in CQC i kinda like it the way it is now really never really like to scope to begin with(sorry always used IS even in battlefield at long ranges still IS it). What do you think. I think skill is the biggest factor and numbers of course we all know what zerg swarming can do. Edit* sorry forgot this earlier. When the maps get bigger they are going to be so big people are going to be begging for a dropship to come and pick them up so they don't have to truck it(by foot or actual truck LOL). So range will not be a factor from hot spot to hot spot. Atleast this is the way I am seeing it in the future.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.20 15:07:00 - [2] - Quote Laurent Cazaderon wrote: Can't wait for the snipers to suffer the "skill bat" as well. Oh neither can, I it is going to be awesome. Sleepy and furry are going to have a field day can't wait to be dodging snipers who are earning there kills. And the ones who think they can snipe be on the ground.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.20 15:22:00 - [3] - Quote EnIgMa99 wrote: Sir Meode wrote: Its not a nerf, its called Balance. Somthing that was actually needed with AR's TAR is extinct now like the creodron I agree it is extinct right now that is why I stated it should get a massive damage buff but leave the kick in it so it is a suppressor weapon.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.20 15:38:00 - [4] - Quote EnIgMa99 wrote: Everyone in the post got tired of me and G-slick killing them. I don't care about normalized damage whatever. Why make the weapon impossible to use at range? especially when me and g-slick along with like 4 other people were the ONLY people to use this gun?!?!?!?! Want a nerf? Just decrease the fire rate. Like if it has to have recoil it can't have that much. The gun is extinct and no one will ever use it again. My issue was it was being used like a standard AR which is not were it is supposed to stand on the boards as far as weapon roles go. The problem was it was better than the standard, because it even had range and damage on the AR with almost the same possible rate of fire.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.20 15:47:00 - [5] - Quote EnIgMa99 wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: EnIgMa99 wrote: Everyone in the post got tired of me and G-slick killing them. I don't care about normalized damage whatever. Why make the weapon impossible to use at range? especially when me and g-slick along with like 4 other people were the ONLY people to use this gun?!?!?!?! Want a nerf? Just decrease the fire rate. Like if it has to have recoil it can't have that much. The gun is extinct and no one will ever use it again. My issue was it was being used like a standard AR which is not were it is supposed to stand on the boards as far as weapon roles go. The problem was it was better than the standard, because it even had range and damage on the AR with almost the same possible rate of fire. decrease it to the credron fire rate or only slightly higher lessen the recoil a bit and i think you will have a good rifle. depending on your dude it takes 10-15 shots to take someone down i.e. no damage mods tanked out assault dudes. Recoil is dumb after 5th shot. Yea but that is putting it back into the same spot as other AR I think of the AR as a FAL massive damage massive kick and great accuracy over range.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.20 16:12:00 - [6] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I love how you guys don't complain as CCP balances everything else, but the second they take a look at your precious weapon (which lets face it, is all you guys ever use), you're all up in arms and telling us all how terrible the change was. What is it you tell us noobs? Get good? Get good. Then the change in dmg values from standard/adv/proto is just bad and makes it worthless to use proto duvolle. I have to disagree. I went ten round with the exile rifle. Got use to the sights then switched to the GEK I dont have the skills for the duvolle. But given my increased KDR the damage changes I posted earlier in another post I think it is a page back now, I think the GEK is by far doing better than the standard.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.21 20:10:00 - [7] - Quote Goat of Dover wrote: Next I want to compare damage from AR tier to AR tier, then AR to MD. The difference in the AR tier to tier is in the DPS over time not shot to shot. Yes people say oh it deals 341 a second. Yes this is true, but like you stated you miss with a good bit of them due to kick movement a being hit yourself. So lets say you land 5 to 6 out of 10 shots, 170 damage per second on the lowest tier rifle with no mods and without weaponry buff. Go up a tier 7 out of 10 shots you are now doing due to kick reduction. The DPS is now increased to 224 damage in one second, that is almost a complex shield mod difference there. this is all without weaponry and damage mods. Next lets do MD to AR. Yes there is a MD that can do 378 damage in one shot, but this is the breach variant. It fires slower and the radius is reduced severely and so is the splash damage. Lets just compare the standards to start no point in getting to many numbers in there. The standard compare at MD 225 a sec on a direct hit, the AR at the chances and hit probability I gave you earlier is 170 a sec. This is with a direct hit. Now switch to splash and the numbers go to MD 115 to AR 170 still. On the prototype end, you have the MD doing 270 on a direct hit and 138 on splash. With the AR doing again with they chances and hit probability from earlier 224 a sec. Throw in the MD weakness to shields and their ability to do damage to multiple tangos at once. Then in CQC with less cover they are better. Put distance like say Bravo to Charlie on the four point and It is the AR all day. This is written up as a 1v1 and with no damage buffs from anywhere. I wrote this up in one of the first pages using G slicks hit proportions due to movement and kick. The math is on. It also compares MD to AR because that was one of his complaints in the beginning. The numbers are. Standard AR with hit chance of 5 to 6 rounds out of 10 - 170 per second Duvolle AR with increased hit chance due to skills 7 out of 10 round - 224 per second Standard MD direct hit - 225 - splash - 115 per second Freedom MD direct hit - 270 - splash - 138 per second That is a difference of 54 damage a second at the duvolle level, this again is without any damage buffs straight from the numbers given by weapon description.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.21 20:21:00 - [8] - Quote ArMaGeDoN The Cat wrote: <--- AR user says: AR's are fine now, they were OP before, STFU and HTFU. All they need to do is to remove this silly Iron sight that blocks your target so much that in its intended range (medium) you can't even see your target. Infact, I would say add MOAR recoil, I can unload a full 60 bullets clip and still stay accurate at medium range. If your idea was to make us burst fire CCP, you failed. I agree the kick is tiny compared to like BF3, but that can be covered up by futuristic mumbo jumbo. The real kick comes in when you flinch from being shot. So yes you can unload a full clip into one spot at medium range but try and do that while being shot.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.21 20:28:00 - [9] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: I wrote this up in one of the first pages using G slicks hit proportions due to movement and kick. The math is on. It also compares MD to AR because that was one of his complaints in the beginning. The numbers are. Standard AR with hit chance of 5 to 6 rounds out of 10 - 170 per second Duvolle AR with increased hit chance due to skills 7 out of 10 round - 224 per second Standard MD direct hit - 225 - splash - 115 per second Freedom MD direct hit - 270 - splash - 138 per second That is a difference of 54 damage a second at the duvolle level, this again is without any damage buffs straight from the numbers given by weapon description. Nice numbers. Got a way to calculate actual damage values on the MDs yet? If you assume those AR numbers are accurate for how often a player is actually going to be hitting, that means there's approximately a 31% increase in effective DPS from the Standard AR to the Duvolle. I thought it would be less than that. Most people do. They never take in consideration the dps only the number per bullet. The actual numbers from the splash of a MD is off I think some times I do more some times I do less. I can't really give you that yet only the numbers from the weapon stats. I will say how ever that your chance of damaging someone with splash from a MD does increase do to the splash increase by weapon and the 25% radius from operation LV5.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.21 20:29:00 - [10] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: I wrote this up in one of the first pages using G slicks hit proportions due to movement and kick. The math is on. It also compares MD to AR because that was one of his complaints in the beginning. The numbers are. Standard AR with hit chance of 5 to 6 rounds out of 10 - 170 per second Duvolle AR with increased hit chance due to skills 7 out of 10 round - 224 per second Standard MD direct hit - 225 - splash - 115 per second Freedom MD direct hit - 270 - splash - 138 per second That is a difference of 54 damage a second at the duvolle level, this again is without any damage buffs straight from the numbers given by weapon description. Nice numbers. Got a way to calculate actual damage values on the MDs yet? If you assume those AR numbers are accurate for how often a player is actually going to be hitting, that means there's approximately a 31% increase in effective DPS from the Standard AR to the Duvolle. I thought it would be less than that. Also these are stats from someone who is decent at this game not a noob with no gun game.

Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.21 21:01:00 - [11] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Pretty sure splash has a "falloff" rate as you get further out from the centre of the blast.[/quote] Yeah but people wont hold still so I can get some numbers lol.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.21 22:04:00 - [12] - Quote semperfi1999 wrote: Goat of Dover wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Pretty sure splash has a "falloff" rate as you get further out from the centre of the blast. Yea your MD numbers are definitely off. Yesterday several times I had splash dmg from a single MD round (note i stated splash so not a direct hit) do ~275-300 dmg and this was to shields not armor.....I dont even want to know what they would do to armor. That is very possible. My numbers are from the weapon stats. Given round/splash damage and the rate of fire of 1 round per second. But I do see my damage varying from nothing to making up for the last shot doing nothing, but this is all off of splash direct hit usually really hurts a lot on anything shields or armor.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.22 02:58:00 - [13] - Quote Wow 1clip that was a lot of post there. I agree with you there on this build is a little bit more noob friendly. It reduces everyone back to there basics in a sense as well. We all had to learn how to shoot the AR again, for me I like the iron sights better. I can even hold them over distance better than I could the scope in the last build. I agree with you about the scope not making the gun more accurate. I can't wait to see what people have to say about the kick when they get there scopes back, boy that dot is going to be dancing everywhere at first it will be beyond hilarious.
Goat of Dover Shadow Company HQ 161	Posted - 2012.12.24 21:28:00 - [14] - Quote Ludvig Enraga wrote: Ydubbs81 RND wrote: There is a reason why the duvolle is a prototype and cost 12x more than the Assault Rifle. When you die, that's a lot of ISK that you lost. They had the setup perfect before....now, it doesn't make any sense. Sure, you're making the proto and standard guns the same gun but that blows the entire concept of having a prototype weapon. I disagree. Having a weapon that's 10% more effective is very significant in FPS. A 10% increase in efficiency should cost 5- 10 times more. This way good players who acrue ISK can buy a little more with their buck and poor players should have acccess to decent gear all the same time. Otherwise, things like Duvolle are a gift that keeps on giving: offers complete dominance where skills start to matter litle - leading to high isk accumulation, futher widening the gap between noobs and vets. Yep that is true but the duvolle does not give you 10% bonus it give you close to a 31% bonus to the standard, and some were around 15 to 18% over the gek. If anyone would like I will go get my post from earlier and post so you can see how I got my math and numbers for this calculation.