I use AR's primarily, and AR's are fine. Its not a bad thing that AR's are no longer unbeatable, its ok for other weapons to be as good. Just get use to it, and it will be eventually be just fine. I actually find AR's more fun now, and I have been doing much better than before.

Actually Heavies are supposed to win a 1v1 match (to my knowledge), it should be the case that multiple people have to band together to take one heavy down not the other way around.
Of course there are things like maneuverability that might allow a single person to outsmart bull. .. i mean, a heavy in 1v1. But if you have an open field and a heavy on one side and 2-4 not heavies on the other side (all with equal equipment levels), then the heavy should win by mowing the group down in a matter of seconds.
Thats the most enjoyable part about encountering heavies. Distracting them without getting yourself killed, so that another player can flank him from the side / behind and deal massive damage.

About AR themself:
I have seen people playing perfectly fine without AR's. There are too many different weapon types to say "This one and single type of weapon is THE ONE TYPE of weapon the whole game is centered around"

And to be slightly trolling at the end:
You want to play "every other game?" You are free to play CoD.

Edit:
*shivering at the thought that quick scoping is THE WAY to play sniper*

I also doing better than before with AR (Exile AR). This make me wonder about raise of complains on AR.

I also don't agree with OP that we should have one weapon which is good in all situations. Each weapon should have their strengths and weakness. It looks so better when battlefield is filled with ARs, LRs, MDs, HMGs and shotguns. It's much better than ARs everywhere.

I read all the patch notes. I've used ARs from Replication as my 'MAIN' weapon. All the variants, etc... ARs are better and more balanced. The maps are actually bigger on some, and you can be outranged wielding an AR, so your map size issue is mute.

Snipers will always be a factor on large, flat maps... Mass Drivers are best if you have them in narrow corridors. In the open, dodging Mass Driver Charges is easy... haven't been killed by a Mass Driver this build yet while in the open. Conversly, if I hug walls and use cover, I haven't been sniped. Still wield my trusty AR, and still get Positive KDR... and can even hit at range... Just can't empty an entire clip on that one single point.

Tactical ARs were hit hardest by the recoil, I agree, but they now can't be abused by modded controllers. And still do a fair amount of damage. Now, hoever, the increase headshot modifier is your best friend with the tactical. Tap their head, they go down fast. Beofre you could triple tap they're leg and kill them with a tactical in a scarce few seconds.

G-Slick,

My personal opinion is as follows and is by no means fact.

1.) Close Support is MY job along with all my Logi Brothers. The Heavy Dropsuit was designed to wade into a group of unfriendly players and deliver judgment upon them. An assault dropsuit should not be able to drop a Heavy at Mid-Range in a one vs. one fight unless there are some other gameplay aspects that weigh into the encounter (such as flanking, elevation, and fit.). It's my personal average that a Heavy should be able to get the drop on and take around 3 people if they are good. 4-5 if they have support. If a Heavy wades into a group of people looking at him and proceeds to walk into open ground he will not survive. He may get 2 kills but he won't get the third unless the enemies he's attacking can't aim for kitten.

2.) Laser Rifle's were good against everything at long range. Assault Rifles and Sniper Rifles were it's only competition but that's not what the nerf was about. Like i said in another post, the Assault Rifle was the easiest weapon to use with no recoil and ungodly accuracy. It's the Jack of all trades weapon but it bested everything it came up against save a rare few. And against those rare few, it was easy to turn the tables by entering the range at which they could not.

3.) Hill Snipers exist in every game, and if they don't move they get shot. That is still the case with every weapon and i STILL do it with my Assault rifle with the only difference being that i have to get closer now, and that may require me to go a bit out of my way. I once fired 3 Mass Driver payloads at a Hill Sniper in rapid succession and all three landed while he was trying to shoot at me, and they killed him before he had a chance to get up and move to a new location. Hill Snipers will pay for not moving one way or another. The range at which an Assault Rifle could hit a Sniper was insane. no other weapon could compare.

4.)They are not god weapons. They are difficult to aim, useless in some situations, have bullet travel time, and CAN GET YOU KILLED IF YOU KITTEN UP! Before, Mass Drivers had 4 shots to a clip in standard versions and it required ALL 4 shots to hit in order to kill somebody. A one on one fight with a Mass Driver user was over if they missed once and the only way to use them effectively was in large groups. The only thing the bigger clipsize did was make them more viable as a weapon when alone. It's hardly a God Weapon.

I agree Completely that CCP messed up on the AR nerf. They needed a kick, but with the current damage and way sights work it's all just a mess. It's my personal belief that:

-They decrease the damage on Basic Assault Rifles, while giving them more kick and giving less kick as you move up.

-They slightly increase Damage on Burst Rifles while slightly lowering Kick

-Don't think anyone cares about Breach Variants

-Remove Kick from Tactical Rifles, while giving them a slightly lower rate of fire.

Thoughts?

this ^^^
I have seen you play this build your good, very good.
and I'm sorry but yea TAR need recoil otherwise someone who has a fast index finger (Because its not like shooting a real SA rifle) can have a STD AR that does the damage of a ADV etc.

get used to the changes man

Another "my dust is no longer generic AR fest" thread? sure, go ahead. seems it is too hard to actually try to learn the game... or god forbid try different weapons or variants.

Just because someone could kill you with a different weapon does not mean that weapon was as good as the 1 you used, player skill plays a large part.
Go get a calculator, do do DPS stats, and damage per magazine stats with the AR and other weapons. I did the math for the mass driver compared to the AR, and the AR beat the mass driver by a lot, plus the mass driver takes more skill to use because of the arc; the MD magazine size buff was warranted.
Before the AR could encroach upon the laser rifle's long range niche because of its similar range, but now it takes skill for AR users need skill to pull off long range kills.

There is a reason why ARs were used so much before; they were good at close, medium, and long range (with sharpshooter skills). Its a good thing that they aren't so perfect anymore. Just because its an FPS doesn't mean it should be a generic AR-fest.

ARs are way better now. I feel rewarded for actually being a good AR user when i see now how i get a lot more killed by players that just full-auto while running at me at 35m distance..... Stop being mad.

And the damage nerf is for every weapon in the game. You're whining just like HMG user are whining.... Both weapons are now as fine as ever.

LR being the king at long range against AR ? Where's the big surprise ?
When the tac rifle will actually be fixed you'll a kind of counter, but never as effective as the LR.. Lower RoF (around half the current Rof) Lower recoil as the current one is just crazy making it useless at long range (isnt that the whole point of the weapon ? long range ? ).

MDs are slightly annoying at short range that i agree with. Jumping around firing at the ground shouldnt be rewarded. But at mid-long range. MD requires skill.

Anyway, take it like a man.

Actually The Southern Legion has some of the best MD users on the Asia Servers in it.. and they're up there on US and EU servers too... you CAN dodge MD blasts in the open due to the travel time. You CAN avoid the Lion's share of the AoE damage pretty easily. I manage that, and keep my AR trained on them usually either forcing them to take cover, or killing them.

I don't see where you got that the maps are smaller. They didn;t reduce the size of the maps... they moved some of the objectives closer together. The 'combative area' is smaller, the maps are either same size or even slightly bigger in some cases.

Big assumption thinking you've been in the game longer? Replication? Pre-Replication? Could be a renamed older player... or an alt of said older player.

Have you been living in a closet for the last few builds?

When CCP change things they do it to the extreme. Just look what happened to misile turrets, massive nerf then they have rebalanced them again this build.

AR wont stay like this forever, new sights will come with probably a cost, damage values will change and recoil is fine no need to change.

Ar's just need recoil. They were too easy to use before compared to other non instant hit weapons and such.

You're really overdoing the hyperbole.
Do you know how much damage a AR can do from just 1 full second of firing? Standard basic AR does 387.5 damage per second.
You're seriously saying using a weapon whose shots travel in an arc that you must predict where it will land is actually easier than just bullets instantly hitting where you point your gun?
You're seriously saying ARs are worse than any other weapon? Even the nova knife which is basically an inferior closer range shotgun that you have to charge?
You seriously just compared the range of a mass driver to a sniper rifle.

Beginning your post with such obvious disingenuousness proves that you are QQing. Even if you have something unpleasant to say, you can still say it politely.

Hi G-SLicK,

I see what you are saying, but I'm afraid I disagree about a number of points.

I agree that ARs should be one of the central weapons in a game, they should, in my opinion be the best medium range light weapon going, but that's all. I don't think you can say as you can't say how people should play the game.

#1. A Heavy, face to face, 1v1 should take out anyone else. An AR user should have to either out match the heavy in terms of equipment, or (preferably) out play them by using the terrain, their maneuverability and by ganging up on them.

#2. I agree, laser rifles have a different niche to ARs, and a good user should be able to take down most things at range.

#3. Snipers camping a single point are frustrating, often for both teams. I think a slight change in the map designs so that the crest of the hills is inside the red zone would help. This would better allow sniper hunters to sneak up on them and would hopefully discourage them from sticking in one point for the whole game. Otherwise, I agree that the TacAR should be one of the weapons that is usable to hunt them down. I think that it needs some recoil in place though, two shots in close succession should still hit the target except perhaps at extreme ranges, which shout be enough to drop most snipers if you headshot them, but any more than that should go astray. The TacAR shouldn't be close to matching the rpm of a normal AR no matter how quick your trigger finger is.

#4. I've not really seen many mass drivers yet, so can't comment on them.

TL:DR? I agree with OP about a couPle of points, but generally think that the new ARs are better that before.

34.1 Damage per shot

750.0 RPM

750 / 60 = 12.5 Shots per second

12.5 x 34.1 = 426.25 Damage PER SECOND

Mathematically proven.

Do you know the chances of actually hitting anyone with a mass driver at that range? You have to predict where the arc will end, and account for moving targets, the mass driver rounds are really slow.

A STANDARD basic AR (not advanced or prototype), that's right, a STANDARD AR can do 387.5 damage in ONE SECOND. That is more menacing than a prototype MD doing 350.
200+ round damage from an MD is not impressive compared to that, especially considering the extra difficulty of actually landing a direct hit.

Why has nobody answered one of the easiest questions from the OP?


Doom, Strife, Heretic, Hexen, Red Faction, Thief, Dishonored, that Star Trek: Voyager FPS I forget the name of...

There are quite a few games that don't have ARs as a "main" weapon. Some of which don't even have ARs (or any equivalent), and some of which have something that fits the functionality, but isn't a "main" weapon in any sense.

I'd list some of the survival-style mods for Fallout 3 as well, but it's arguably more RPG than shooter (it kind of works both ways), and I don't know if you'd count mods.

A lot smaller ? Or with a better design ?
Cause if you dare compare new magnus peak to a COD map, then you'd better stop right here. Those three objectives have 150-200m distance between each other.

Ashland ? It's action packed. short range infantry oriented (ABC) while still having room for long range weapon. It's still bigger than a COD map.

Plateus ? Kind of the middle ground map.

Any COD map from MW2 (last i dare play) is still way smaller than any of those. And with a lot more of camping positions...
Beside what you're saying makes no sense. According to you : If we, poor fools, dont notice the AR nerf it's because maps were shrunk. Then, how comes you get mow down by lasers and MD ? If the map are so much COD like ?

Honestly, i still take down most infantry at 40-50 meters without problem. And short range MD tend to taste my shotgun when they annoy me....

Mass driver isn't really good at long range, isn't it?

I love how you guys don't complain as CCP balances everything else, but the second they take a look at your precious weapon (which lets face it, is all you guys ever use), you're all up in arms and telling us all how terrible the change was.

What is it you tell us noobs?

Get good?

Get good.

Okay Slick I would like to actually compare the situation change as far as combat and weapons go and put in my suggestions. Not trolling ignore the fools and lets talk logic here.

The skirmish maps have not shrunk(cannot speak for the ambush don't play it often). They have also added much more objects by adding instillation in new places to force corners and cover. By doing this they have played to both sides. You now are generally closer to the MD user than before so it is a lot more dangerous than before. They have also helped out the AR user by applying the cover everywhere and allowing for new elevation points for tactical advantage. The disadvantage is now people have to use cover wisely to hide for a MD.

Next I want to compare damage from AR tier to AR tier, then AR to MD. The difference in the AR tier to tier is in the DPS over time not shot to shot. Yes people say oh it deals 341 a second. Yes this is true, but like you stated you miss with a good bit of them due to kick movement a being hit yourself. So lets say you land 5 to 6 out of 10 shots, 170 damage per second on the lowest tier rifle with no mods and without weaponry buff. Go up a tier 7 out of 10 shots you are now doing due to kick reduction. The DPS is now increased to 224 damage in one second, that is almost a complex shield mod difference there. this is all without weaponry and damage mods.

Next lets do MD to AR. Yes there is a MD that can do 378 damage in one shot, but this is the breach variant. It fires slower and the radius is reduced severely and so is the splash damage. Lets just compare the standards to start no point in getting to many numbers in there. The standard compare at MD 225 a sec on a direct hit, the AR at the chances and hit probability I gave you earlier is 170 a sec. This is with a direct hit. Now switch to splash and the numbers go to MD 115 to AR 170 still. On the prototype end, you have the MD doing 270 on a direct hit and 138 on splash. With the AR doing again with they chances and hit probability from earlier 224 a sec. Throw in the MD weakness to shields and their ability to do damage to multiple tangos at once. Then in CQC with less cover they are better. Put distance like say Bravo to Charlie on the four point and It is the AR all day. This is written up as a 1v1 and with no damage buffs from anywhere.

So really it seems they both have an advantage in different areas of the field. The main issue we have is now with the new IS on the AR most feel like they have to be with in 15M to kill someone. Practice some get a little bit away and you will see how good the AR is still. Yes the MD is more deadly now because you are closer to it. Yes the AR IS is different but plays better into the CQC that they have forced on us than it did with a scope. TAR needs a damage buff a major damage buff by like around 200%. So it hurts real nice like on the business end, but doesn't really allow it to play CQC well. So it is more of a suppressor weapon as opposed to a breach weapon since we already have that. The AR gets put the dot on them and pull the trigger advantage here I am sorry it takes more skill to get a good hit with the MD than it does with the AR. The issue I see is the radius on the MD at operation lv 5 is 6m with a freedom that cover a big area. So maybe a small nerf on that would be good, and I mean small not chop 2m off each one so it is a precision gun that takes time to get there and the bullet can be easily dodged. The AR no idea for making it better in CQC i kinda like it the way it is now really never really like to scope to begin with(sorry always used IS even in battlefield at long ranges still IS it).

What do you think. I think skill is the biggest factor and numbers of course we all know what zerg swarming can do.

Edit* sorry forgot this earlier. When the maps get bigger they are going to be so big people are going to be begging for a dropship to come and pick them up so they don't have to truck it(by foot or actual truck LOL). So range will not be a factor from hot spot to hot spot. Atleast this is the way I am seeing it in the future.

G-slick you're such a beast on the field - I fear very little besides you and 2 others. Never seem to be able to kill you guys. But I think I see a problem with your thinking. CCP is a company - and your a hardcore gamer. The idea of the balance wasn't just fixing game mechanics - but a lot of what CCP is doing is developing a game that will last - thus their also trying to be attractive to gamers. And what's commonly known as unattractive to the FPS crowd is a single weapon that can do all in high end games. That was the AR - the do all weapon. Not do all because it can do everything well enough like an AR should - it did everything the best. That needed fixing pretty badly if CCP wants to advertise how depth there creative system is. A person shouldn't need to dedicate too much time learning a weapon that's only point and fire.

Ok, this has probably been said a bunch but i will say it anyways.

This is a beta, things change, things get nerfed. Live with it. This IS what you signed up for.

When people's forge guns and hmgs get an unneeded nerf nobody is gonna raise a figner, but you're up in arms about a small AR change?

What is wrong with you.

Give him a break G, he didn't even read the thread, how could he know he isn't supposed to be here.

If you want to be that specific, then why is this in general discussion instead of feedback, i have been here for a few builds now. I am not a newcomer, i dislike that ccp holds newcomers hands by making the game easier for them to survive in, but still. When they touch my forge guns everyone celebrates when the nerf wasn't really needed. But when they touch the AR, people get mad.

Why?

And i read like 5 pages of the thread and realised it was pretty much repeating from there on.

I think we all should grab a club and have a beating on the imperfects? Whos with me?

Coming from the guys who formed from Betamax. Took every good player from betamax and put them in imperfects. Luls.

hes just a random who gets face rolled by SI. G-slick you do remember craftyslyfox aint ya? He is the guy who is capable in taking you on 1vs1 with militia stuff while you go full proto. Scrub player is scrub player..

If my corp had a lack of a life enough to match your ISK and SP, we would.

Btw, remember all the times I killed your tac AR last build with my pistol when we ran into eachother 1v1?

HTFU

CAPS >lowercase

I win, by default.

What's a score board bro? Is that like craigslist?

What CCP and every else would say to you G-slick:

im sorry but i dont click on links of people i turn on.

http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/dead-horse.gif

I'm saying that in this game money+SP>skill. From what I've seen of you fighting and heard on the forums, you're backed up by too much ISK and SP to overshadow lack of skill.

protobear no life mode activate! play dust all day every day!

Sorry but when was the last time you saw a sniper in any FPS dancing around the battlezone like a unicorn? They killed you, probably more than once: deal with it.

You have no idea how happy I am that this thread is still alive, good read