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A challenge to all the UVT complainers out there.

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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.19 03:07:00 - [1] - Quote I've posted this challenge in one of the Feedback/Requests threads as well, but I think it deserves a topic of its own. Corp voice chat now requires players to buy UVTs for access. Apparently this is a "problem" and a "mistake" because "every game" has this functionality for free. These claims are blatantly and provably false, and I'm here to explain why. I'm also willing to back up my claims with a nice challenge to anyone who reads through this thread and still thinks I'm wrong. And, in the spirit of not being an idiot, I'm willing to concede the point if someone beats me at my challenge. So, without further ado, my reasoning, starting with a pair of itemised lists comparing standard voice communication functionality with the free voice comms in the current state of the DUST 514 beta. *The list of what MOST games offer* 1. Voice chat in most games is restricted to - at most - the battle/mission you're currently involved with. You can't talk with players who are fighting in other battles. 2. Voice chat in most games is limited to your team only - sometimes to your squad (another term might be used for a subset of the team). Sometimes - but not always - they add proximity chat with enemy players on top of the team/squad chat. Sometimes they offer advanced functionality like separate voice channels for the whole team and for individual squads. 3. Voice Chat in most games is available when you're grouped with your teammates in a team or squad, and is limited to the team/squad you're in. You can talk to other players without needing to be in a battle, or even actively searching for one, but you have a limit on the number of players you can speak with based on the number of players a team or squad can hold. *The list of what DUST 514 offers for free, based on the above list* 1. The free voice chat in DUST, like the free chat in most other games, is limited to the current battle. This is normal and reasonable. 2. The free voice chat in DUST, like the free chat in most other games, is limited to only your team. Unlike some games, you don't get prox chat with enemies, but this isn't a standard feature, just an added extra that has drawbacks as well as benefits. Also, DUST includes the other common extra feature of dual-channel voice chat, allowing players to access chat with their entire team, or limit their voice comms to block everyone except their own squadmates. 3. The free voice chat in DUST, like the free chat in most other games, is available outside of missions when you're part of a squad. At the moment, we don't have the ability to search for games as a full team, so whole-team voice outside of battle doesn't (yet) exist, but I'm hopeful that this will become an option in the future. From the above, you should be able to see that DUST 514 does, in fact, offer the standard expected voice chat options that most other games come with. So what's the "important" feature that people are missing out on? Why are we complaining that we don't get out free corp chat? Lets take a look at what Corp chat is. in EVE Online, and by extension, in DUST 514, "Corporation" is the in-game term used to denote a formal group of players. Most console FPS gamers are familiar with the term "clan" having the same (or at least similar) meaning. For the MMO crowd, it's usually a "guild" - but there's a good chance of games in either genre (or any other genre for that matter) to have unique terms for the concept. So, basically, Corp chat means you're able to speak with anyone in your "clan" or "guild" who's online and in-game. Because some corporations are cross-game corps, this means you can have DUST players and EVE players in the same chat channel speaking with one another. But only if both of you have UVTs. Problem? I don't think so. And now, the moment you've all been waiting for... MY CHALLENGE You're all welcome to join in. ANYONE who thinks I'm wrong can provide the name of ONE game which has an in-game "clan chat" or "guild chat" feature that gives players FREE access to voice comms with their clanmates even while those players are in separate missions/battles/gameplay environments. In order to negate your example, and prove that the majority of games DON'T have a free equivalent to Corp chat, I'm prepared to provide the names of FIVE games which don't have the feature for every ONE game that's posted in this thread which does include it. Simple rules: 1. Obviously, if you lie, I will be looking up the game(s) named to confirm, and you will be caught out. So don't do that. 2. Current-gen only. This means the game must be no older than the XBox 360 console, but the game can exist on any major current-gen gaming platform. For these purposes, even though both have been superceded, the Nintendo DS and PSP can be counted as current-gen consoles, because for at least part of the time period we're looking at, they WERE current-gen consoles. 3. There must be a reason for the game to include voice chat. The original Assassin's Creed can't be used by me as an example of a game without a "clan chat" function, even though it's in a series with clan support, because that particular release was single-player only. 4. Good luck.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.19 03:21:00 - [2] - Quote fred orpaul wrote: EVE online yes I know subscription based. THIS IS WHAT YOU PEOPLE GET for wanting dust to not be like eve(lost steam). meh what ever as long as it works out to less then my monthly subscription to eve for all three implants. I somehow knew EVE would be the first game on the list. Here's my first 5. 1. Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood 2. Assassin's Creed: Revelations 3. Assassin's Creed 3 4. Transformers: War for Cybertron 5. Transformers: Fall of Cybertron Not only do none of the listed games not have a "clan chat" feature, 4/5 don't have any clan functionality implemented, and the one that does requires out-of-game interactions to make the clan functions work.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.19 03:41:00 - [3] - Quote ICECREAMK1NG wrote: TLDR. Not sure why you bothered posting when you don't even know what the thread is about. But I'll run with it. Quote: Increase stupidly small squad size, allow squads of more than 1 into same game. That was addressed in the OP. Quote: Forgetting the uvt for a moment, the whole comms set up on this game is crap. No. It just doesn't explain the system well, so most players either don't turn voice on at all, or don't know how to use it effectively if they do. Quote: Which is why you never hear any one in game apart from your 3 friends. No, YOU only hear YOUR 3 friends because of this: Quote: EDIT... In fact we only use SKYPE when playing for these reasons. Never done this before in any online game. Right now i have 2 redundant headsets. Not even using the in-game voice means you won't hear anyone in game. Funny that. When I've been in a squad that queue-synced with friendlies and ended up on the same team, we all moved to team chat and had 10/12 players communicating on mic. Two full squads who queue-synced, and a couple of randoms who heard all the talking and picked up their own mics.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.19 04:11:00 - [4] - Quote ICECREAMK1NG wrote: This is the worst comms setup, invite / join game / squad / group / add / mail etc I've ever had to use online. I definitely think that voice comms should default to "on", PTT should default to "off" and you should be put into the Team channel by default on entering a battle, instead of frequently being auto-assigned to squad chat. Fix those problems, and the majority of the game's other issues should take care of themselves. The basic functionality required to make a good team-based voice chat system is there. It's just that the default settings are all wrong and there's not enough in-game explanation for anything, so nobody even knows there's something to fix without being told, and even then, they often don't know what to fix or how. Further explanation should be provided by the game, and the defaults for basically everything comms-related need to be reversed. But can we go back on topic now please?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.19 05:04:00 - [5] - Quote Ima Leet wrote: DCUO right? its been a while but i'm pretty sure i could voice chat with my League no matter where any of us are BTW, i dont care if i'm right or wrong lol just throwing something out there According to this, free accounts don't get voice chat, and Premium accounts only get proximity voice chat. You have to pay extra to get voice outside of party chat.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.19 05:11:00 - [6] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: Bottom line is, it was free to use before and now we have to pay real money for it. NOBODY should be defending this. It was free before. While being specifically promoted as NOT being free when it was. Making the free state of the service a bug, and not intended functionality. Quote: Seriously, you like having to pay money where you did not before? There is no gain here, it's 100% loss. If you were getting free cable because of a mix-up, and it got fixed, would you complain and demand free cable because you had it before? Same thing here. Quote: As for the reasoning about this supporting CCP, I seriously doubt this was even remotely necessary, there is so many other Aurum items on the market that people spend tons of cash on. All this does it give CCP a tiny bit more money and hurt the corps, because not everybody will be able to buy the UVT on a regular basis, or at all. Have you even looked into the full details of that side of the argument? It doesn't sound like you have. AUR items are the game's profit, NOT cost-covering tools for the voice chat service which CCP have to pay for. In-game voice, where you're talking to other DUST players in the same battle as you, can be run directly via PSN, and those costs are part of the agreement between Sony and CCP. The corporation chat handles EVE/DUST interaction, which requires it to run via the voice service CCP use for EVE, which they pay for through a third party. That costs money, and the UVT is meant to offset/cover the cost of that service.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.19 06:53:00 - [7] - Quote DJINN leukoplast wrote: It's the principle of the thing that makes this so bad. From what I know, the corp voice has been free since the betas release. Interesting it took them so long to fix something that was likely an easy fix. From the beginning of the beta when we didn't even have player-created corporations and were all in NPC corporations, back when UVTs didn't exist and neither did corp voice chat? Quote: Saying it was a glitch/bug is just an escape clause. So when, and if, they do charge for it they can say "Hey look, we said it was a glitch!" CCP explained, when UVTs were first introduced, that they were a requirement for ANY voice chat outside of team and squad chat. That specifically included corp chat. They said that WHEN CORP VOICE WAS ADDED. That's how it was ALWAYS meant to work. That's how they've advertised the system to work ALL ALONG. Quote: Cost is cost. Whether I buy Aurum for weapons purchases or for the UVT, it all goes to the same place and then gets spent on what needs to be paid out. When you spend money buying Aurum, it goes to CCP. When you buy that UVT, you're linked to their (paid) voice server that lets you connect with EVE players. That connection requires CCP to spend some of the money they have to provide you with that connection to that voice chat server. As a result, that portion of your Aurum purchase which you spent on the UVT is now going to another company in order to cover the cost of the service you're being provided. Quote: And seriously, it's a f2p game, everything they are doing is costing them money. The game engine, any agreements they have with Sony and the PSN, their own ISP and net costs, running and maintaining servers, paying the devs, paying the electric bills etc etc. Internal costs and third-party costs are separate. This isn't money they're paying to their staff, or money they're spending on assets for the company. it's money being paid to another company for an ongoing service that the other company is providing indirectly via the game client. Quote: You ever wonder why the UVT price for the 1 day, 7 day and 30 day were all the same? You think it was a unintentional glitch? Possibly, but I figure they were testing the players and whether or not people would foolishly buy the 1 day UVT for the same price as the 30 day UVT. They were likely testing the players and their gullibility to fork over the same amount of money for a lesser product. I feel this is not much different, as they are probably seeing if the player base accepts this or not after getting it for free for so long. And if we do accept it, then they know they can do it for other things and get away with it. They specifically said that, while testing the UVT, they've made them all the same (very low) price because they're wanting people to test the system and see how it works and what it does. They're actively trying to make people use UVTs. They've also said that a UVT-like item that unlocks corp voice for the entire corporation with a single purchase is something they're looking into as a possibility - it's not confirmed, but it's being considered, so hopefully that will happen.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 10:09:00 - [8] - Quote ICECREAMK1NG wrote: MAG.............. 8 Man squads. Clan deploy. OIC Comms with 256 people. PL comms with OIC, his platoon and or squad leaders. Squad leaders with PL and OIC and squad. Oh and also proxy chat with friend and enemy too. Now stfu. - Having 256 players in a match doesn't mean you can have 256 players on one team. lrn2math. - MAG doesn't meet the requirements of the challenge because you can still only communicate with people in the same battle/lobby as you. DUST gives you out-of-battle voice comms with your whole corp (and the current max corp size in DUST is how large now? I forget... ) and also gives you in-battle voice comms with people who are in your corp EVE-side (not even in the same game, and not even playing on the same gaming platform), and people in DUST in your corp who are in other battles or not in battle at all. But after some digging, I found that DCUO actually does fit the requirements. League voice CAN be turned on by free players (someone on a sub is needed to set up the League in the first place, but they don't need to stay subbed to keep the League running or to keep League chat free for everyone). Sorry for the mix-up, but it's actually really hard to find accurate info about DCUO. The official site is very badly-written. So I owe another 5 games. How difficult. 1. Call of Duty 2. Call of Duty 2 3. Call of Duty 3 4. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 5. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 Who thinks I'll be able to match a 3rd example (if there is one) without needing to bring up a 3rd franchise? ...although I feel like using each individual CoD release might be borderline cheating, since it's really just the same 2 or 3 games with a selection of overpriced non-cross-compatible expansion packs. Lets try this again, slightly less cheating this time... 1 - 3: Call of Duty series 4: Battlefield 1942 (and spin-offs in the same generation of tech. Because like CoD, that would be cheating) 5. Battlefield 2142 (same engine, but it's got unique enough gameplay style and mechanics to not count as a rehash)
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 10:21:00 - [9] - Quote Tectonious Falcon wrote: They're only that cheap for the beta- once launch comes UVT's will be expensive again. But final pricing is currently yet to be determined, so "expensive" is a relative term, and probably won't see them going up to the price they were on their initial release.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 10:58:00 - [10] - Quote Enji Elric wrote: did you ever get into chromosome garret? After a delete and re-download of the client, yeah. I'm up and running again. And back on-topic (sort of) again... I'm not arguing that the current state of the beta is the right time for the current version of UVTs to be required for corp chat. I'm not even arguing that the UVTs we have now are the best option for corp voice chat. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been better if CCP released a corp-wide UVT-equivalent before springing this on us. I'm not saying that corp voice isn't a useful tool. I'm pointing out that it's NOT "needed" for people to play, or even to play well and coordinate. It's NOT pay-to-win, and it's NOT something that "every other game" has as a standard feature. Without paying ANYTHING, you can still chat with your squad AND the whole team freely (more freely than you can in MAG, actually). When the player market is up and running, UVTs will be purchased with ISK by some players. If and when there's a corp-wide UVT item, there will be a way for the corp to provide voice comms to the whole corp quickly and easily. If they don't release such an item, UVTs will still be possible to trade from one corp member to another - either free if the player is willing, or at a great discount from the normal market value. It's highly likely that, if a corp UVT item doesn't eventually appear, some corporations will have a "stock" of UVTs provided by their CEO and/or Director(s) and issued to ALL corp members to enable voice comms.

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 14:10:00 - [11] - Quote Django Quik wrote: I really don't get why you think that listing other games that don't have this feature is even remotely relevant. Just because they don't do it, doesn't mean they're doing it right or best. After DCUO this is the only true attempt at an MMO on the PS3 and SEO obviously thought it important enough to include league wide chat for free. The reason it's relevant is stated in the OP. One of the more common complaints has been that "every other game has this feature" when that statement is blatantly untrue. As I've said already, I'm not arguing that CCp have done everything exactly right. I'm just pointing out that we're not being denied a feature that's common to the majority of games. If you're looking specifically at console games, or specifically at FPS games, it becomes even more unbelievable that people have made that claim. Quote: You can't use corp chat in all those other games because organizing as a corp is not important outside of each individual match. In Dust (though it's not really important yet) it will be important to organize as a corp before setting up for attacks on other's territories or defending large scale attacks or whatever happens when we get full use of the star map and all that stuff. Most decisions that need to be made on a level outside of a specific battle will be made by senior corporation members with minimal (if any) input desired or needed from the rest of the corp. When we get the option to create whole teams to deploy in rather than being limited to squads, we'll have free access to team chat while we wait for the team leader (commander?) to deploy. That will allow all the necessary discussion to be held WITHOUT PAYING ANYTHING. Quote: As has already been stated this game will survive on the social scene that players can interact with and having free voice comms will ensure that no one has to put any money down to enjoy its full features. Even though it's free to play, people will still be loathed to pay even a tiny amount for any feature that will only enhance their social interaction. How many times do people have to point out that WE ALREADY HAVE FREE VOICE COMMS WHERE IT MATTERS? And how many times do people have to point out that WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO SELL AND BUY UVTS WITH ISK?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 14:22:00 - [12] - Quote xAckie wrote: Isk alternatives? Who cares. The point is new players who have no investment in this game will just shrug shoulders not hear anyone and leave. One notable forum warrior left his first corp because they were on Teamspeak and couldn't hear anyone. He went to a new one (not ours). he has stuck around cause he wants to play this game even in this beta environment, what do you think those that are just loking will do? So a guy joined a corp, and the corp CEO or a Director accepted his application, but didn't explain that the team wasn't using Corp chat or provide the relevant information about how to access voice (or other) comms with corpmates? That doesn't sound like a problem with the game to me. That sounds like a valid reason not to be in that corp. People who suck at communicating won't suck significantly less just because you give them better tools. Quote: Corp chat matters (I dont care about Eve/ Dust corp chat if that is what it can do) let UVT pay for that -everyone will just use teamspeak anyway. Corps are a key mechanic for this game to succeed. Communicating with corp members matters. Voice chat when you're not in battle DOESN'T. It's an added, irrelevant extra that, while cool, doesn't provide any benefit that makes it unfair on players without access to the service. Quote: And at OP the corp chat in MAG worked for me with 128 players - we could speak to everyone. In game I would much prefer MAGs voice comms to be honest (much more sensible) - than hearing everyone talk over each other, which we have now. And your challenge was met by DCUO on your own requirements (i think MAG met them). Also as a previous poster said who cares about what other games did. Thats irrelevant. As I explained, it doesn't fit the criteria because, from what I can tell, it's only available when you're using the "team deploy" option, which means you're queued for battle. There isn't an option to speak with clanmates who are in a separate battle from the one you're in, or those who are on the enemy team, or people who are in battle while you're customising your loadouts between matches, or when you're in battle and the other people you're talking to aren't. It ONLY works for players who are in THE SAME BATTLE or who are queued for THE SAME BATTLE, not for everyone in the clan/corp and in-game, regardless of what they're doing. If we had team a deploy option in DUST (which is a reasonable feature to expect before release), then we'll be able to do everything MAG allows, within the smaller scope of our battlefields, for free. As it stands, if you queue-sync with corpmates, you an already do this by having everyone switch to the team channel. And I already addressed my mistake with DCUO and added another 5 games to my counter-list. But MAG still doesn't fit the required criteria.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 14:27:00 - [13] - Quote xAckie wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: How many times do people have to point out that WE ALREADY HAVE FREE VOICE COMMS WHERE IT MATTERS? NO WE DONT - caps effect cause apparently it will help get a point across... So you skimmed my post and ignored the explanation of exactly why you're wrong just because I use caps for emphasis instead of bold or italics. I find it easier to hold shift (and yes, I ALWAYS hold shift. Caps-lock would be cheating) than to type a stack of code and hope I'm remembering the right formatting style for the forum I'm on. I use a lot of different forums for various reasons, some of which use BBCode, some with html coding, some don't let you manually code and you have to click on buttons to make the desired effects appear, and some are terrible and old and don't have any way to add emphasis without using caps. So I use caps on all of them, because it's universally recognised as an emphatic point. Feel free to not do the same. Until all the forums I'm on use the same system, I'm going to go with the option that works consistently across all of them.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 15:18:00 - [14] - Quote xAckie wrote: If a person (male or female) joins a corp and cant hear anyone s/he leaves. If this a new person who is trying Dust out they leave, and they can leave the game with no loss of investment apart from time. We want them to stay You can't JOIN a corp magically without anyone in the corp having to take any action. When you apply, you have to wait for a CEO or Director to approve the application. If they do that, and the corp doesn't use corp voice (regardless of whether the corp voice option is free or not), and nobody contacts you to let you know how to get in touch with your corpmates, that isn't the game's fault. People with no communication skills still suck at communicating even when they have good communication tools. And lets look at a more likely scenario, given the rarity of games which actually support out-of-battle voice comms. Player applies for corp. Senior corp member is an idiot, and approves the application without explaining anything to the new member. New corp member sees "oh, hey, i'm in the corporation now!" and looks in the corp channel. They either see "NO VOICE" in the top-left corner of the channel page, or they try talking and listening and nobody is responding, so they give text a try. They get a text response, and think, "would've been cool if we had voice comms, but ok" then get into a squad, and suddenly, their "squad" channel lights up. They switch to it, and now they can hear voices. AWESOME! Quote: You set the criteria and it was met by DCUO - your challenge was met. So you lost your own challenge. Obviously didn't read my challenge. I said that, for every game anyone can list that DOES meet the criteria, I'll name 5 that don't. EVE was the first game names, and DCUO was the second. I've provided more than 10 games in response. Quote: But as I say, and someone above, any other game is irrelevant to this discussion. We are not talking about what others are/ have done but what Dust should do. And I'm providing this thread as a counter to a specific argument on that side, NOT as a counter to ALL of them. I agree that there needs to be a player market where UVTs can be purchased for ISK. I'm in favour of a corp-wide UVT-like item that allows ONE purchase to unlock voice comms for the entire corp, rather than each individual needing their own UVT. With the ability to gift items to the corp, and the corp's ability to gift those items to specific individuals, there will be an easy workaround if a corp-wide item never appears, but it would still be preferable for this to be added. Quote: look, we clearly disagree, but caps dont help when discussing things. (Just seen your above post. Still think Caps means SHOUTING) And I'm sorry for shouting, but as I said, I will continue to do so - for the most part - as long as the various forums I use continue to have different requirements, and as long as CAPS is the only consistent and reliable method of adding emphasis to my comments. If I could be sure that the code used on this forum for bold would also work on all the various other forums I'm active in, I would gladly use that code in all of them. But it doesn't. No matter which forum I use, though, CAPS always shows up as CAPS. And shouting is a form of emphasis, even if it can sometimes be taken the wrong way.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.20 16:41:00 - [15] - Quote Dairy Dravon wrote: Read the first post, skipped the rest. Don't have a game, but I have a system feature: XBox 360 and its party feature. As long as I am a part of the party, I can talk to up to 6 people across different games and activities. Good for a small squad/corp I suppose ...and it's not only not a game, it's also part of the paid XBox Live service, not a free feature.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.21 16:29:00 - [16] - Quote Marston EV wrote: 2 dollars........ 2 dollars is all you need to buy enough UVT's for life. like seriously are you really that broke?? Even though I'm the OP, don't agree with the person you're replying to, and can point to the fact that player-market UVTs are confirmed already, you're wrong. Current prices are temporary, and no announcement has been made on the final price for UVTs.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.21 21:21:00 - [17] - Quote So is that it guys? 3 answers, and only 2 of them legit? Once of which is not only PC-exclusive, but also a subscription-based game by CCP, and the other of which requires at least one player to subscribe for at least a month to get set up. If anyone has more examples, please share. I'd love to see myself proven wrong here (I won't, but it would be awesome if I did).
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.24 04:50:00 - [18] - Quote J'Jor Da'Wg wrote: SATORI CORUSCANTi wrote: tl;dr Just because other games suck doesn't mean DUST should have to follow suit. Give us our corp voice back. This x1000 In a large scale team based MMO that will require heavy coordination to win, you will have to pay for corp chat? Alliance chat, that I can see being charged for, but corp chat? No, no no and no. I can just as easily go to TS3 for free (almost) and get that functionality. In fact, the ENTIRE voice chat/chain of command needs an overhaul. Stop kissing CCP's butt Because EVE never charged for corp chat? (spoiler: Yes they did) Because you need large-scale coordination outside of the team you're in battle with? (spoiler: No you don't) And because the current state with no option to give other players UVTs or to have a single corp member buy a corp-wide UVT item is the intended final release plan? (Spoiler: No it isn't) Wait and see how things ACTUALLY work out before deciding this is as terrible as you're making it sound. Also, this thread isn't here to argue the entire problem out and say CCP have made all the right decisions all the time. I don't think having corp chat require UVTs was a good decision with the way the current build works, and I agree they should have waited until they were ready to roll out all the tools to make corp voice actually a practical option before turning off the free version. This is to counter ONE point in the argument, which is the claim that "all other games" give you a corp voice chat equivalent for free. Even with me being generous, I'm seeing no hint that the odds are even as high as 1 in 6 for a game actually providing an equivalent feature at no extra charge.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.24 09:32:00 - [19] - Quote Leither Yiltron wrote: Saying that large-scale coordination outside of the team you're in battle with is unnecessary is simply wrong, in such an obvious way that I don't even need to argue it. Claiming you don't need to argue a point implies that everyone (myself included) already understands and agrees with you. Obviously, that isn't the case. Also, you seem to be intentionally twisting what I've said to something you can argue with, or maybe just missing the point. At no point have I said that corp-wide communication is unnecessary. But also, at no point has anyone provided a valid reason why corp-wide VOICE communication is necessary. In battle, voice comms are faster and more efficient. In battle, fast and efficient communication is key. Between battles, voice comms make FAR less difference Quote: Garett Blacknova wrote: I don't think having corp chat require UVTs was a good decision with the way the current build works This is the chiefest of concerns for all of the corporations involved in this fiasco. This decision isn't just not good, it's worse than bad. One of the features that I've heralded far and wide to friends, one of the features that makes the game exponentially more entertaining for any member of an organized corp, is gone. So an aspect of the game that was specifically promoted by CCP as something that wasn't intended to work the way you were using it, and which IS STILL IN THE GAME, but now in the originally-advertised form, is now "gone" and it's somehow CCP's fault you used a feature they haven't announced publicly (therefore violating NDA) as a way to promote the game? Quote: This entire thread is in the wrong tone and might lead CCP to believe that they can delay on implementing corp UVT features, and even seems to argue that the corp UVT situation isn't particularly severe. Someone might even think that a corp UVT is unnecessary, when in fact it's one of the most essential pieces of functionality that CCP can include with Dust 514. Looking purely at the OP, I can see how you might get this impression, but not if you've read more than one post in the thread. Quote: If you don't like the point but agree with the idea, you're doing a great job making an inconsequential point overshadow the true issue. And again, not my intent. This thread is meant to focus on one aspect where people were abusing an invalid argument to support their opinions, and prove that the point they were trying to argue isn't valid. I wasn't arguing that none of the other points are valid or important, just that one point in particular is an epic fail and should be dropped by the people using it to support their argument.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2013.01.21 00:47:00 - [20] - Quote Khal V'Rani wrote: Well, admittedly I'm ignorant of popular social culture when it comes to online games as this is the first online game I've ever played so, to add my two cents, I downloaded this game not knowing anyone who either plays or played Eve and/or Dust. So after downloading the game back in August I had to try and figure this whole hot mess out myself. At some point within a week or two I read something that said the UVT was needed for everything outside of battle (however it was stated). Whether that was in game or on the forums I don't remember. The point is it was out there, perhaps it wasn't easy to find or it was oddly worded but it was there. I had no idea that corp chat was free, whether by bug or design, as I thought a UVT was needed for ANYTHING outside of battle. Perhaps this whole problem could've been mitigated with clearer explanations of the communication system. I don't know. I do know that CCP has the right to change things as they see fit without warning or notice as is stated in the EULA or terms and conditions or wherever that is. I do think that a Corp level UVT should be a purchasable item by both Aurum and ISK however. I know it's not on target for the challenge Garrett, my apologies for that. TL;DR - This is where the problem is. Thanks for that, but to be fair, the descriptions of how comms work have always been easily-accessible (at least as far as anything in this game is) and have always explained things working as they do currently. At no point has anyone been TOLD that corp voice was free, or was meant to be free. Even while it was free, CCP were actively promoting that UVTs were required for corp voice. Also, just giving this a bump in the hope (probably in vain) that someone else will find something I'm missing here.

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