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I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
172
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Posted - 2012.12.08 07:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dust is a very different game from anything I've played.
Below are some ideas for what RPGs, FPSs, and squad games are like, and what balances them. Feel free to skip these sections if you don't want to read a wall of text.
When I think of an RPG, I think of games similar to final fantasy and dungeon crawlers. The biggest appeal to this genre is the upgrade system that gives you skill points and many types of equipment to choose from. As you increase in level, you unlock more abilites, are able to wield stronger weapons, and have higher stats. Skill points can then be distributed to customize your character into whatever you are interested in doing whether that be support or full on fighting.
Usually in RPGs, there are certain classes, or weapons or abilities that are strong against other classes or defenses, therefore balancing pvp interaction. The thing that makes one player more powerful than another is the user's skill level and type.
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When I think of an FPS, I think of games similar to CoD, Halo, or Resistance. In these games, everyone has the same health and guns, but can unlock slightly better ones, or ones that differentiate your playstyle, by playing more.
These slight advantages might be useful, but don't make a player invincible. A careless player who has played a lot can still be killed by a new player with starter weapons, therefore balancing pvp interaction. The thing that makes one player more powerful than another is the amount of time spent in the game, having more knowledge of the maps and gunplay.
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When I think of a capture the objective squad game, I think of games similar to Star Wars Battlefront, and Warhawk/Starhawk. The reason these games have popularity is because of the teamwork and class based systems. This similarity to first person shooters allows new players to enjoy the game, despite some of its complexity.
They do a good job of maintaining the FPS genre alongside different classes that you would see in RPG games. Most of them limit the customization in the game to keep the different roles, weapons, and classes balanced. Players get better at the game based on their teamwork with other, using strategy and cooperation.
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You can skip down to here.
Dust 514 is a combination of not only an FPS and RPG, but a squad based game as well. Putting all of these genres into one game makes it hard to add more features to the game without making it very confusing. The easiest way to explain this is that Dust needs to have more RPG features, or more FPS features, but not both.
Ideas for RPG features (more teamwork):
-Anyone who helps to kill an enemy (if they're healing, shooting, taking bullets, or whatever) should get wp for it.
-Enemies killed give wp to team players within a radius, regardless of damage. The player who killed the enemy will always get more wp.
-Killing an enemy who is hacking a base, or near your base, should give you bonus points. Same for destroying enemy equipment.
-Assisting anything that is not biological should not give wp, or should give only limited wp. (vehicles, turrets, or installations)
-Make different weapons better or weaker against certain types of dropsuits (not just armor and shielding)
-Add special abilities for each dropsuit that can be upgraded (scout stealth, heavy armor hardener, logistics insta-revive, assault superspeed)
Ideas for FPS features (more gunplay):
-Allow classes to still have customization, with different variations of weapons, but remove weapons and armor that can increase power or defenses better than the same type of armor. (different armor types that add the same amount of hp, but have different penalties)
OR
Remove any kind of sp up-gradable skills that increase weapon power or defenses.
-Mix up the gunplay and effectiveness of certain guns
-Make it harder to detect enemies unless you have specific equipment
-let there be more ways to interact with teammates (more notifications and HUD icons)
-Close quarters combat should be more smooth and less pathetic
-Allow for upgrades or additional modifications to the guns
By focusing on a specific genre, the game can work better and allow more people to actually enjoy the game, but there are too many conflicting ideas in the game right now for the average player to get adjusted to. |
Talnos Nosslu
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2012.12.08 09:00:00 -
[2] - Quote
You touched on a lot of points I share the same sentiment with. One of the bigger points that stands out to me is the ability to customize "tier 3" weapons. Without it, D514 is pretty much a vehicle customization game. If one should consider with respect to EVE Online, your weapon in D514 is the same as your ship in EVE. Everything from the ground-up is customized, save for the ship chassis. Of course modifying the suit counts, however this doesn't differ much from regular 'perks' given in the CoD series, save of course it's complexity. And there's nothing in D514 that isn't.
Of course I do echo placing emphasis on making enemy detection harder. It seems just a tad too fluid that enemies simply 'pop' up all the time, without much regard for stealth tactics. The scan profile reducers also only reduce by percentage, making stealth efficiency harder to accomplish with suits already specialized for it. Unless for other reasons this factors into scanning systems in a different way than I imagine. Adding to this, there needs to be an indicator to show whether or not a player has been detected by enemy scanners (not 'seen' by snipers). This is imperative!
You pretty much said a mouthful. Lets just only hope this gets taken into consideration.  |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.12.08 09:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
There are also levelless and classless rpg games. This is closer to eve, the choices of gear and skills to suit playstyle and pre-battle planning make a large part of player strength but actions in battle determine outcome.
EvE is more tilted to sp and gear determining fight then dust is, but even in eve the better player can beat a better ship with fewer skill points. There was a test done by some eve vets where they made new low sp char and tried to pvp. The years of player skill out weighed the sp and isk gap.
EvE is more a spaceship sim then a rpg. I look at the upcoming World of Darkness game as CCP's first rpg
Level based rpg really suck in pvp unless the level cap is low. Many games of this type need players to grind to max level before letting them into a lot of the game. Levelless rpgs let you gain abilities/feats/traits/perks with sp instaed of gaining that and having all the stats rise too. This allows the customization without making the gap between players as bad.
I have seen some of the rpg suggestions in shooters, and weapon customization is normally better in rpg then in shooters. I don't think there is any real reason they need segregated into categories by genre. To many make it over complicated if its 1/2rpg and 1/2 shooter or all shooter or all rpg. To much complication is to much complication the genre to first use the element has no effect on how much complication it adds.
EvE had one of the best balanced skill systems for fights between old and new players I have seen. It's main problem is getting new players to understand it. If they can find a way to make it more accessible it would benifit dust greatly, and help EvE gain players too. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
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Posted - 2012.12.08 15:04:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think the biggest problem this beta faces is what you said and that the two different games have two different standards for different aspects of the game
Progression:
RPG usually have a Player versus Environment progression with a Player versus Player optional. Since its optional the need for balance is not great because its not the main focus.
Where FPS usually have Player versus Player progression that requires a lot of balance with Player versus Environment optional. Usually there is no balance in the environment games since your both on the same team always.
Skills:
RPG usually have their skills greatly improve everything in a character , I was 100 hp lvl 1 now im 100000 hp lvl 15 and they expect that.
Where FPS were 100hp at lvl 1 and 100hp at lvl 15 and skills tend to slightly add to things everyone has like grenades or ability to jump and stamina to still maintain balance.
Customization:
RPG are more stat crazy , an example they can be 50 different staffs that look exactly the same but have different stats to each one of them .
Where FPS its more physical and visual . scopes, barrels, chest plates, helmets and even naughty dog got blasted for it because of uncharted 3 hype about customization and it was always the same scope.
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1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
87
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Posted - 2012.12.08 19:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I AGREE!
I wish they'd skip the RP stuff and just make a nice FPS game. Kind of drives me nuts that there's so much work to be done on PvP but they want to stick in something I really could care less about, PvE and NON COMBAT ZONES (wtf?!). It also seems like the stuff that FPS players like, RPers don't, and vice versa. Although I'm more for FPS games, it seems like many of the people here are more into the RP stuff. I suppose it makes sense since EVE is a RP game.
It has been a little disappointing that more haven't found my name amusing. How many FPS games do you play where you frag someone and then proudly shout, "1 CLIP 1 KILL!" |
1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
87
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Posted - 2012.12.08 19:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Also, why do some RPers think all FPS players are against vehicles? I'd love to see some huge things in this game that can completely obliterate the other team. AT AT, Darkwalkers, even apache gunships! I heard dropships used to be alright, but people got their missiles nerfed =/. Everything seems to be on a super small scale here. Even the artillery strike you can call in weak. I think it's orbital strike, maybe from a satellite? I'd rather have a huge steady beam like from C&C or whatever.
There needs to be more mayhem! I want to see giblets flying everywhere after someone gets hit w/a rocket, and roasted skeletal remains. |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
238
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Posted - 2012.12.08 21:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
[quote=1CLIP 1KILL]
There needs to be more mayhem! I want to see giblets flying everywhere after someone gets hit w/a rocket, and roasted skeletal remains.[/quote
this is a T game remember, the blood splatter is enough, T is anywhere from ages 13-17... sooo theres lots of problems with your suggestion 8D |
1CLIP 1KILL
Crux Special Tasks Group
Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 22:05:00 -
[8] - Quote
DarkShadowFox wrote:this is a T game remember, the blood splatter is enough, T is anywhere from ages 13-17... sooo theres lots of problems with your suggestion 8D
haha yah, but a guy can hope!
Does anyone know what the dev's target market is? I have a number of suggestions (totally different from the one above) but I'm not making some posts because I don't think they are for this game. |
Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
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Posted - 2012.12.08 22:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
I noticed that to, it saids blood but i have yet to see blood spray from shots. The trailer had it and the warning at the beginning saids blood.
Also when I thought of orbital strikes, I thought of beams as well like GDI in Command and Conqueror . A small blue haze beginning to form around a certain diameter and slowly see dirt and dust particles rise instead of stay on the ground bringing a heart beating anticipation that makes you run for your life or say "oh crap" followed by boom. Instead of the your instant dead when you hear the Tripod sound having no clue your in it. |
Hult Duz
Ahrendee Mercenaries
Legacy Rising
8
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Posted - 2012.12.08 23:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
The problem is the game is just a run and gun game. Where the person with the highest meta level assault rifle wins. Or the strongest tank wins. There has been little to encourage deeper rpg-Inge or tactic generation. Where everything but assault suits rule the map. It's borin for a player like myself who would like to have a different experience is forced to invest in the attacking element of the game to make it worth playing (sp wise). |
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Crm234
Wraith Shadow Guards
166
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Posted - 2012.12.08 23:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Hult Duz wrote:The problem is the game is just a run and gun game. Where the person with the highest meta level assault rifle wins. Or the strongest tank wins. There has been little to encourage deeper rpg-Inge or tactic generation. Where everything but assault suits rule the map. It's borin for a player like myself who would like to have a different experience is forced to invest in the attacking element of the game to make it worth playing (sp wise).
May I ask why , you would enter a beta that's core was a FPS? knowing that FPS means First Person Shooter and required you to attack another player that shoots back at you ? Not trying to insult but tryin to understand the mind set of someone who watches the trailer and saids to themselves I have to get in that RPG
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I-Shayz-I
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
172
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Posted - 2012.12.10 02:00:00 -
[12] - Quote
If ccp makes this game more like an FPS than a RPG, there needs to be an incentive for players to use other weapons than the AR. The one thing that makes the AR overpowered right now isn't damage, but how accurate it is from long range, making almost every other weapon obsolete. Better gungame and variation between weapons, along with balancing, makes a good FPS.
If ccp makes the game more like an RPG than a FPS, there needs to be an incentive for players to use other "classes" than a frontline Assault with an AR. The reason the Assault class is used so much is because there are no negative effects of having a whole team of them. Better class variation and encouraged teamwork between classes makes a good MMO. |
Talnos Nosslu
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
46
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Posted - 2012.12.10 05:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
Well at the very least of its merits, I cannot stand shooting through someone. SMG at close range and only cuts through half of their shields?
Really? |
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