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ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 19:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION......................................
OK folks alot of talk going on about AR's. Lets get down to the business of separating our wepons and what they should be compared too. The only weapon that is in the same class as the AR is the Laser. All you laser guys (all 10 of you lol) feel free to chime in.
Statement......... The AR is KING of Mid range !!!!!
Question............ What are we comparing it to, a scrambler pistol, a smg, a mass driver ? what weapon? Please be specific, all you number crunchers pls show me the numbers.
Conclusion............ AR should be the go to weapon for Mid Range capabilities and efficiency. Up close and personal the SHOTGUN or SMG should and does rule ask any SCOUT, with a shotty and COMPLEX RED BATTERIES, about that comparison.
END TRANSMISSION.............................................. |
Tzaar Bomba
Doomheim
174
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 20:32:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bad post.
Assault rifles are for close to mid range combat. The way they are designed and what they do in this game shows it well, they do what it says. Im not seeing an issue.
The only weapons with issues are the submachine gun and HMG. Submachine guns personify close range dominance in present day, they have stopping power most ARs can only dream of attaining. For the sake of balance though they were changed to the lower spectrum of damage. Sad but whatever, not even the fire rate of smgs conpensate for the poor lack of power. They made it a side arm though so whatever. I guess its fine.
HMGs however are another story. They have high capacity, moderate damage, and despite what everyone else says, decent range. God mode on foot essentially, the only thing that hampers them is the slow movement speed of the player. Then those players have 1k+ armor/shields. Too much for a single individual. Its ok though, it takes them forever to get to objectives, Until they hop into an LAV and hop out and spray. Nerfs needed.
Mass drivers, have fail written all over them.
Forge guns need slower traveling projectiles, much like rpgs and AT rockets. Not insta hitish.
Swarm launchers need faster movement and to not go left as soon as theyre launched.
Shotguns, are for people that are uncomfortable with aiming.
Snipers are fine. Cowards.
Laser rifles are ok.
Pistols are fine.
Railgun turrets need faster tracking, they are horridly inefficient with how slow target aquisition is.
Blasters need to do reduced damage to tanks not to everything, just tanks. If you put a blaster on you should mow down infantry but it should take alot more effort to destroy a tank. Just as a bradleys auto cannon tickles a T-90 but the t-90s 125mm smooth bore cannon will tear a hole in the side of the bradley. Its called balance, if you throw realism in the mix it helps sometimes as well.
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ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
41
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Posted - 2012.12.07 20:51:00 -
[3] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION.................................
Your comment has some intrigue. I would correct your statement about CLOSE to mid range for the AR.. and the one about BAD POST.
The assault rifle is NOT, i repeat, is NOT a close quarter weapon and its not meant to be. So what realism are you living in. Is this a comparison of Midrange weapons or just bad scrutiny.
Basically what im getting at is when the AR is "compared" to other weapons, what are we comparing it to? Im trying to SORT that out first so we can discover why the question of nerf or not has popped up. It could be, that the clone is not prepared proprerly when he beams down to the planet. Which would also mean better choices in dropsuit configuration and management is in order for some individuals. Thats another topic for another time.
END TRANSMISSION............................... |
Lance 2ballzStrong
SyNergy Gaming
641
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 20:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
all the caps necessary? |
Tzaar Bomba
Doomheim
174
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Posted - 2012.12.07 20:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Why WOULD you NERF the ARs they DONT require ONE. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
41
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Posted - 2012.12.07 21:04:00 -
[6] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION..................................
I dont want a nerf to the AR for the record. I want a real side by side comparison with other mid range weapons in its class here!! plz show me the numbers and keep to this topic.
END TRANSMISSION.................................... |
Ghost-33
ShootBreakStab
108
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tzaar Bomba wrote:Why WOULD you NERF the ARs they DONT require ONE.
He never said he wanted to nerf the assault rifle, he wants to know what people are comparing the assault rifle to, that would make people ask for a nerf
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Destroyer Rob
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.12.07 21:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
if anything i think the AR could use more max range |
Knightshade Belladonna
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
288
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Posted - 2012.12.07 21:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Destroyer Rob wrote:if anything i think the AR could use more max range
sharpshooter prof does wonders |
Berserker007
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
206
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ok, lets try and make this work. You cant put an open ended Q of what are we comparing ARs to w/o giving some type of clauses. Also, ARs are for cqb range as well as mid, hence the ability to use cqb barrels and overgas systems to increase rof (real word scenario). Ill make do though with your very vague statements...
CQB:
ARs mid rof, "mid damage", out guns smgs more often then not.
Changes "needed": put smg operation back to damage, but a 3% to compete on a damage/rof level of ARs
Hmgs outgun ARs in cqb more often then not
Changes "needed" : none
Mid Range:
ARs dominate, as intended
Long Range:
Snipers win, unless AR is tac w/ skilling into SSH
Lasers compete w/ ARs, though id give edge to laser in players w/ equal skills (not sp, mean gun skill)
So yeah/ id say ARs are fine in their role, it is he role of other guns that need to be looked at |
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THUNDERGROOVE
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
33
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 21:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tzaar Bomba wrote:Why WOULD you NERF the ARs they DONT require ONE. Nothing requires a nerf. But unbalanced games aren't fun to play.
The only people who want a weapon nerfed are people who can't use the weapon and the only people who don't want it nerfed can only use that weapon.
ALSO you AREN'T cool IF you TYPE like THIS. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2282
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:04:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tzaar Bomba wrote:Bad post.
Assault rifles are for close to mid range combat. The way they are designed and what they do in this game shows it well, they do what it says. Im not seeing an issue.
The only weapons with issues are the submachine gun and HMG. Submachine guns personify close range dominance in present day, they have stopping power most ARs can only dream of attaining. For the sake of balance though they were changed to the lower spectrum of damage. Sad but whatever, not even the fire rate of smgs conpensate for the poor lack of power. They made it a side arm though so whatever. I guess its fine.
HMGs however are another story. They have high capacity, moderate damage, and despite what everyone else says, decent range. God mode on foot essentially, the only thing that hampers them is the slow movement speed of the player. Then those players have 1k+ armor/shields. Too much for a single individual. Its ok though, it takes them forever to get to objectives, Until they hop into an LAV and hop out and spray. Nerfs needed.
Mass drivers, have fail written all over them.
Forge guns need slower traveling projectiles, much like rpgs and AT rockets. Not insta hitish.
Swarm launchers need faster movement and to not go left as soon as theyre launched.
Shotguns, are for people that are uncomfortable with aiming.
Snipers are fine. Cowards.
Laser rifles are ok.
Pistols are fine.
Railgun turrets need faster tracking, they are horridly inefficient with how slow target aquisition is.
Blasters need to do reduced damage to tanks not to everything, just tanks. If you put a blaster on you should mow down infantry but it should take alot more effort to destroy a tank. Just as a bradleys auto cannon tickles a T-90 but the t-90s 125mm smooth bore cannon will tear a hole in the side of the bradley. Its called balance, if you throw realism in the mix it helps sometimes as well.
HMGs are fine Blasters are fine Rails are fine
agree with smgs and i dont like ppls counter argument how its a sidearm....the scrambler pistol is a sidearm and can drop ppl alot faster than most guns if the person knows how to use it |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1058
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:07:00 -
[13] - Quote
The problem isn't that they dominate their specialty, it's that they dominate where they aren't supposed to dominate.
Better at mid-long range than laser rifles. Better at short range than SMGs |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1058
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote: Blasters are fine Rails are fine
Have you ever seriously used any small hybrid turrets before? I have plenty of practice, and I use prototype small blasters/rails. A stabilized prototype blaster is ok against infantry (still not as good as it should be), while a normal prototype small railgun still takes about 6 shots to take down a starter fit baloch (gallente LAV). |
Dust Goon
Doomheim
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
SMG's do need a boost, i'm not sure about comparison against the LR though, the LR is a much higher DMG much higher skilled weapon.
I may pull all the numbers out tomorrow actually, Jenza probably has them kicking around somewhere already. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
If SMG and AR hip accuracy swapped balance would be fine between them. As it stands now SMG fires all over and AR is easily controllable. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2282
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:44:00 -
[17] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Mavado V Noriega wrote: Blasters are fine Rails are fine
Have you ever seriously used any small hybrid turrets before? I have plenty of practice, and I use prototype small blasters/rails. A stabilized prototype blaster is ok against infantry (still not as good as it should be), while a normal prototype small railgun still takes about 6 shots to take down a starter fit baloch (gallente LAV).
small rails and blasters ive always said need a buff large rails are fine and large blasters are fine |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2282
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 22:45:00 -
[18] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:If SMG and AR hip accuracy swapped balance would be fine between them. As it stands now SMG fires all over and AR is easily controllable.
THIS THIS THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! idk in WHAT fps an AR has better hip fire than an SMG |
E-Dino
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 23:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Lasers are pretty good range wise. You can usually out range most weapons and the accuracy is just amazing (killing some one through a whole the size of a cell phone) having burn damage would be nice though, like a residual burn effect after prolonged exposure to the laser beam |
Tzaar Bomba
Doomheim
174
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 23:12:00 -
[20] - Quote
THUNDERGROOVE wrote:Tzaar Bomba wrote:Why WOULD you NERF the ARs they DONT require ONE. Nothing requires a nerf. But unbalanced games aren't fun to play. The only people who want a weapon nerfed are people who can't use the weapon and the only people who don't want it nerfed can only use that weapon. ALSO you AREN'T cool IF you TYPE like THIS.
YOU did IT too ITS catchy ISNT it? |
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Dust Goon
Doomheim
22
|
Posted - 2012.12.07 23:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:If SMG and AR hip accuracy swapped balance would be fine between them. As it stands now SMG fires all over and AR is easily controllable.
Thats actually a great solution, maybe not make the AR hip firing quite as bad though, but add a little recoil to it too while tightening up the hip firing on the SMG.
I totally agree on buffing the smaller blasters rails too. |
Sytonis Auran
Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION
52
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 01:00:00 -
[22] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:Tzaar Bomba wrote:Bad post.
Assault rifles are for close to mid range combat. The way they are designed and what they do in this game shows it well, they do what it says. Im not seeing an issue.
The only weapons with issues are the submachine gun and HMG. Submachine guns personify close range dominance in present day, they have stopping power most ARs can only dream of attaining. For the sake of balance though they were changed to the lower spectrum of damage. Sad but whatever, not even the fire rate of smgs conpensate for the poor lack of power. They made it a side arm though so whatever. I guess its fine.
HMGs however are another story. They have high capacity, moderate damage, and despite what everyone else says, decent range. God mode on foot essentially, the only thing that hampers them is the slow movement speed of the player. Then those players have 1k+ armor/shields. Too much for a single individual. Its ok though, it takes them forever to get to objectives, Until they hop into an LAV and hop out and spray. Nerfs needed.
Mass drivers, have fail written all over them.
Forge guns need slower traveling projectiles, much like rpgs and AT rockets. Not insta hitish.
Swarm launchers need faster movement and to not go left as soon as theyre launched.
Shotguns, are for people that are uncomfortable with aiming.
Snipers are fine. Cowards.
Laser rifles are ok.
Pistols are fine.
Railgun turrets need faster tracking, they are horridly inefficient with how slow target aquisition is.
Blasters need to do reduced damage to tanks not to everything, just tanks. If you put a blaster on you should mow down infantry but it should take alot more effort to destroy a tank. Just as a bradleys auto cannon tickles a T-90 but the t-90s 125mm smooth bore cannon will tear a hole in the side of the bradley. Its called balance, if you throw realism in the mix it helps sometimes as well.
HMGs are fine Blasters are fine Rails are fine agree with smgs and i dont like ppls counter argument how its a sidearm....the scrambler pistol is a sidearm and can drop ppl alot faster than most guns if the person knows how to use it
Agreed on 'sidearm' argument. SMGs need extra range, damage or accuracy as suggested. Maybe emphasise each in its varient models?
Regarding turrets, why do blasters have such high fitting costs PG-wise? |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 02:02:00 -
[23] - Quote
AR don't need a nerf, the operation skill does nothing. So, add some recoil for the skill to reduce, so it ends up where it is at lv1 at lv5.
The smg operation adding damage and proficiency helping stability would probably be all it needs to fill it's role.
Forge gun is a rail gun with 7000m/s muzzle velocity. If they put travel time on it it would hit max range in .043seconds.
The rail gun is meant to be a anti-vehicle sniper, the blaster a close in higher damage weapon. They seem fine, but most maps are not open enough for the rail's role.
The recoil of ar being higher then smg is probably due to the weapon types. The smg is a heavy caliber projectile, the ar is a hybrid plasma weapon. Once we have a Minmatar automatic rifle it will probably kick crazy unless kneeing in aim down sights.
The laser seems to need a little more range. The assault and tac variants seem to have better range, so maybe lr will be fine once we get the variants? If not, a small range boost and slight recoil added to ar make them both use able in there role.
The people asking for more range on ar will probably be happy when we get caldari rifles. If EvE background and game mechanics are any guide they should be mid-to-long range low rate of fire. Then we would have an AR < Tac AR < LR < Tac LR < caldari rifle < tac caldari rifle < sniper range spectrum. I figure Minmatar will probably have a light machine gun of about Tac AR range for there "rifle". |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:The problem isn't that they dominate their specialty, it's that they dominate where they aren't supposed to dominate.
Better at mid-long range than laser rifles. Better at short range than SMGs
START TRANSMISSION......................
I think we are getting somewhere, After reading all of the above ive sorted out this one post. Is this the main reason for the topic of NERF the AR or not?
Question 1...................Should the Laser get a lil buff ?
Question 2...................Should the SMG get a lil buff?
I wanna see some numbers where are those number crunchers, the guys that break down the stats. We need your expertise right now. lets talk in a way that CCP can understand guys, they understand numbers lets give it to them. How much is a lil buff?
END TRANSMISSION......................... |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 05:47:00 -
[25] - Quote
ARs need recoil, which CCp said they're working on already.
They don't need a nerf. Other guns don't need a buff. ARs just need to be tweaked slightly to make them work as ARs instead of lasers with equal damage to armour and shields. |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:ARs need recoil, which CCp said they're working on already.
They don't need a nerf. Other guns don't need a buff. ARs just need to be tweaked slightly to make them work as ARs instead of lasers with equal damage to armour and shields.
START TRANSMISSION............................
KOOL, but i feel the SMG needs to be a lil stronger. Maybe 23-25 hp per hit. Right now the toxin is at 20hp. Im going to look at all the numbers for the SMG and update after i study them.
END TRANSMISSION................................... |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 08:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote:Garrett Blacknova wrote:ARs need recoil, which CCp said they're working on already.
They don't need a nerf. Other guns don't need a buff. ARs just need to be tweaked slightly to make them work as ARs instead of lasers with equal damage to armour and shields. START TRANSMISSION............................ KOOL, but i feel the SMG needs to be a lil stronger. Maybe 23-25 hp per hit. Right now the toxin is at 20hp. Im going to look at all the numbers for the SMG and update after i study them. END TRANSMISSION................................... With the Toxin or Militia SMG, going up against ARs in CQC - even Advanced and Proto ARs, feels like I have the advantage. It's not perfectly balanced, but it's not far off. I think 23 per hit would be the upper limit of any buff I'd consider a good idea. |
Michael Cratar
Red and Silver Hand Amarr Empire
179
|
Posted - 2012.12.08 12:01:00 -
[28] - Quote
ImMortal SoLDieR X wrote: The AR is KING of Mid range !!!!!
LOL! NO! The laser is.
Oh and for the other comments with The DPM of AR VS. SMG I will shead some light on that. Yes the AR has a higher DPM then the SMG, but the SMGs DOT is much shorter *due to the higher fire rate*. Since the DOT of the SMG is shorter It will hit its MDPC * nerd speak for "Max Damage Per Clip" * sooner then the AR. When your in a crunch And you need to put out alot of damage in a short amount of time, the SMG will be your BFF. Going off topic a bit here but when the minmatar AR comes out it will most likely have a very short DOT with a decent MDPC. That is something I will fear.
EDIT: I forgot to say that the SMG has a very low MDPC
Now to translate what I said into engrish. SMGs will hit hard sooner, but the AR will hit harder later.
* RAGE QUITS* |
ImMortal SoLDieR X
RestlessSpirits
41
|
Posted - 2012.12.10 21:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
START TRANSMISSION...............................
Teach me how to pull out 1 line for a quote Michael, plz. Nice post by the way. +1 from me. You said No?!! The AR is not KING the LASER is. Tell me about the LASER Mike. Give me your comparison I wanna know why you said that. Explain pls.
Looking at the way the SMG skills up. You have to sink alot of skill pts into it, Atm to get to lvl 1 PROFICIENCY, (where you start to receive dmg @ 3% per lvl), you must skill up OPERATION to lvl 5, (just like all operation skill sets). Has any one skilled up this Operation to lvl 5? If you have, I wanna hear from you on if it really improves this gun. Making it worth while to sink SP into this weapon.
Right now i dont think its worth it, and with that type of investment maybe the DMG part should come first and then DISPERSION and KICK. What do you think? If the dmg comes first then the 3 point increase of Hp dmg from 20 (making it 23), might not be necessary.
But we agree? That the SMG needs a tweak not the AR nerfed, to keep the AR from dominating in AREAS it shouldn't.
END TRANSMISSION...................................... |
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