DUST Search - {request} Nova Knives

Maken Tosch wrote:

@OgTheEnigma

Yeah, the knife does need more fixing.

From what I see, the biggest gripe about the knife that most people are having with it is charge-up problem. One can't charge while sprinting and that presents a major problem. Throwing the knife is something I found to be balancing because allowing a charge to be held during a sprint for one weapon would mean others would want the same thing for the forge gun and charged sniper rifle. The lunge is another option that can alternatively support if throwing knives turned out to not be achievable.

Switching the charge mechanics as you suggested would work nicely, but how much cooldown between strikes are we talking about here? Anything longer than 3 seconds can present a problem in extreme CQC if the first hit doesn't kill and you're in a crowded room full of enemy mercs. I have been in that situation not too long ago in Line Harvest with the Ishukone Nova Knife and was able to kill all four mercs in 10 seconds when they were within spitting distance of me. If the cool down is too long, I may not be able to achieve that ever again. Of course, too short of a cooldown can be bad and it becomes pointless to have.

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Dakka Opiatus Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2012.12.03 00:34:00 - [1] - Quote I've recently adopted a play style centered around nova knifes, and after a couple hours of trying it out, there's one thing that I'd really like to see added. Nova knifing is obviously a risk/reward type play style, and I appreciate that--in fact, that's why I tried it in the first place. But because it's so difficult to approach an enemy who isn't a sniper, and the TTK a knifer is so low, the risk of nova knifing is leaps and bound higher than the reward of a single kill. So, it's my opinion that the player should have the ability to throw nova knives. This will take a little bit of the risk away from knifing, and hopefully make it a more enjoyable experience on the whole. I propose a two shot clip, (a knife for each hand), and one shot kill for standard assault stats (no perks increasing armor or shield rating) and below, two shots for everything above. Now, before anyone gets up in arms about the thought of throwing knives that one shot, I should mention that I this function is put into the game, I believe that the knives should have travel time (meaning non-hitscan) and bullet drop, or in this case: knife drop. Suggestions for how to make this concept better, praise, and even reasons why this shouldn't be implemented into the game are all helpful.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1594	Posted - 2012.12.03 01:01:00 - [2] - Quote Just so you know you are are not the first one to bring this up and neither are you going to be the last. Many players have put forth various suggestions on how to improve the knife's effectiveness. First Idea Brought Up It was originally believed that players should have the option to charge the knife while sprinting. It was appealing and all to some players, but being that I have specialized so much into Nova Knives and understand the mechanics very deeply, I have learned that this option would merely take away the challenge of using the knife and thus no longer become the tool of professionals of a niche profession (Ninja Knifing). Second Idea Brought Up Others were thinking of borrowing a page from Halo by introducing a lunge feature that should come with the knife once you are within a certain range of your opponent. This actually seemed very logical to me as I wouldn't mind lunging at someone from a distance of about... say... 6-7 feet which is about the average distance your target is at while he's shooting at you. Of course, if he is shooting at you, then that means you failed to maintain the element of surprise which is the overall point of nova knifing. Third Idea Brought Up What you just mentioned. This is actually one idea that has my full approval without a doubt. It doesn't take away from the challenge of using the nova knife while at the same time it could actually help improve one's aiming since now you have only two shots to get a kill or your SOL (**** out of luck) unless you have the option to recover your knives. Of course, you won't be able to if you miss both times and your targeting is shooting at you already after wondering why two knives just zipped by him. I like to some points in regards to your idea. 1. If knife throwing is ever allowed, then a recommended range of about 30 feet in front of you or at least the distance a knife travels with a full charge before losing its charge completely since it's no longer connected to your suit which was providing the energy needed to charge the knives. 2. The knives should have a limited capacitor capacity of just 1 second after it disconnects from your suit so that it wouldn't go too far to the point that you can almost snipe someone with a knife but I also not lose it's charge too soon to the point that you are just throwing a blunt object. If you ever saw or threw a knife in real life, then you know how far a knife can travel in one second.
OgTheEnigma Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 90	Posted - 2012.12.03 02:36:00 - [3] - Quote I haven't been playing with knives lately, but I did come to the conclusion that the charging mechanics need to be switched around. What I mean is that you'll be able to strike with them at any time (like melee) but you need to wait for them to recharge before using them again. Honestly I don't believe this makes them overpowered at all. Since switching to shotgun with the same character and using similar battle strategies I now regularly top the leaderboards, or come close, with a KD ratio of usually between 2-5. With nova knives I only managed on average to break even with my KD and I would have been lucky to get a mid table position on the scoreboards. As far as I'm concerned knives should be similar in in both power and usability to shotguns in extreme CQC situations, but at the moment are sorely lacking. If you allow a weak scout suit to get so close then you deserve to take some serious punishment if they specialise in a melee weapon. I would also say they are not viable as a sidearm for characters who aren't specced into and use biotics and there is literally no reason to choose knives over pistols or SMGs. Maken Tosch, you talk about not wanting to take away the challenge of the knife, but even the best knifers in this game seem to be at severe disadvantage and perform a lot worse on average compared to users of every other weapon in the game. I fully respect you and what you're doing, but I only have to point to your KD ratio to show that the ninja knife strategy is majorly limited right now. I know the ratio isn't the be all and end all but I honestly believe in most circumstances a ninja knifer is a detriment to the team and in Ambush a low KD ratio will directly affect the chances of your team winning. In Skirmish the strategy can be more useful for quickly moving around the battlefield and hacking objectives, but the ability to defend them effectively is just lacking compared to using guns. Against organised teammates who watch each other's backs while hacking it's almost impossible to get close enough without being spotted and charge up multiple nova attacks to take them out. I've probably rambled on a bit here and I'll probably re-read my post tomorrow and disagree with myself on certain points, but the bottom line is I believe that the nova knife is competitively useless and will need a major buff in its usability and lethality before it becomes a viable weapon.
Maken Tosch Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 1594	Posted - 2012.12.03 03:40:00 - [4] - Quote @OgTheEnigma Yeah, the knife does need more fixing. From what I see, the biggest gripe about the knife that most people are having with it is charge-up problem. One can't charge while sprinting and that presents a major problem. Throwing the knife is something I found to be balancing because allowing a charge to be held during a sprint for one weapon would mean others would want the same thing for the forge gun and charged sniper rifle. The lunge is another option that can alternatively support if throwing knives turned out to not be achievable. Switching the charge mechanics as you suggested would work nicely, but how much cooldown between strikes are we talking about here? Anything longer than 3 seconds can present a problem in extreme CQC if the first hit doesn't kill and you're in a crowded room full of enemy mercs. I have been in that situation not too long ago in Line Harvest with the Ishukone Nova Knife and was able to kill all four mercs in 10 seconds when they were within spitting distance of me. If the cool down is too long, I may not be able to achieve that ever again. Of course, too short of a cooldown can be bad and it becomes pointless to have.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.12.03 03:50:00 - [5] - Quote I can see a few things that could do with being changed. 1. Nova Knives need to benefit from buffs to melee. Stimulants don't buff Knives at the moment. This is a problem and needs to be fixed. The same can be said for general melee skill - it should probably not apply full bonus to Nova Knives, but a partial bonus should be given. At the moment, "Hand to Hand Combat" applies a 10% bonus per level to your standard melee attacks. Nova Knives Proficiency only gives a 3% damage bonus per level, and you have to level up Operations to 5 before you can even start on that. Maybe they should, since melee SHOULDN'T be a primary weapon unless you're running Knives, cut that back to 5% per level on the Hand to Hand skill, but have that skill ALSO apply a 1 or 2% damage bonus to Nova Knives. Then make the Knives Prof skill give you a slightly larger buff - maybe 5% instead of just 3. 2. Knife charging, even with high-tier Knives and high-level skills, is WAY too slow when you can't sprint while charging/holding a charge. You EITHER need to be able to sprint while charging, OR need to just swing when you hit the button, but have a charge delay before you can swing again.
YoUnGcUz Imperfects Negative-Feedback 67	Posted - 2012.12.03 03:54:00 - [6] - Quote If only you can run with nova knives that would make them better also.
YoUnGcUz Imperfects Negative-Feedback 67	Posted - 2012.12.03 04:04:00 - [7] - Quote
Dakka Opiatus Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2012.12.03 04:32:00 - [8] - Quote Thanks for the feedback, guys. I'd appreciate it if you could keep the topic on this specific mechanic as opposed to how to make knifing better in general though, as I think that would improve the chances of this concept becoming a reality.
WHz DS9899 Doomheim 136	Posted - 2012.12.03 04:42:00 - [9] - Quote The throwing thing could belike a second charge, but you shoot a "blade" at the oppoent, still keeping yours.
Cross Atu Conspiratus Immortalis 775	Posted - 2012.12.03 04:52:00 - [10] - Quote I haven't played with the Nova yet so my feedback will be limited. That being said I'd suggest that you aim your feature requests at things which balance with hitscan (not saying this can't be done with knifes btw, just addressing the end of your post) because it is currently the stance of CCP that the extra resource investment from both development cycles and server load, will not be worth the reward of implementing non-hitscan into Dust. I enjoy reading all the knifing threads and plan to pick them up at some point so thanks to everyone testing them and working to improve the weapon. Cheers, Cross

Dakka Opiatus Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 3	Posted - 2012.12.03 06:04:00 - [11] - Quote Cross Atu wrote: I haven't played with the Nova yet so my feedback will be limited. That being said I'd suggest that you aim your feature requests at things which balance with hitscan (not saying this can't be done with knifes btw, just addressing the end of your post) because it is currently the stance of CCP that the extra resource investment from both development cycles and server load, will not be worth the reward of implementing non-hitscan into Dust. I enjoy reading all the knifing threads and plan to pick them up at some point so thanks to everyone testing them and working to improve the weapon. Cheers, Cross Thanks, I had no idea that that was the case. I guess travel time and bullet drop can be taken from the mechanic while still preserving the balance between nova knives and shotguns.
OgTheEnigma Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 90	Posted - 2012.12.03 07:22:00 - [12] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: @OgTheEnigma Yeah, the knife does need more fixing. From what I see, the biggest gripe about the knife that most people are having with it is charge-up problem. One can't charge while sprinting and that presents a major problem. Throwing the knife is something I found to be balancing because allowing a charge to be held during a sprint for one weapon would mean others would want the same thing for the forge gun and charged sniper rifle. The lunge is another option that can alternatively support if throwing knives turned out to not be achievable. Switching the charge mechanics as you suggested would work nicely, but how much cooldown between strikes are we talking about here? Anything longer than 3 seconds can present a problem in extreme CQC if the first hit doesn't kill and you're in a crowded room full of enemy mercs. I have been in that situation not too long ago in Line Harvest with the Ishukone Nova Knife and was able to kill all four mercs in 10 seconds when they were within spitting distance of me. If the cool down is too long, I may not be able to achieve that ever again. Of course, too short of a cooldown can be bad and it becomes pointless to have. Recharge times should be the same as charge times for each tier of knives. This way they're far more usable without sacrificing any level of DPS that they had originally.
Codyrules35 Badass L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 94	Posted - 2012.12.03 15:03:00 - [13] - Quote +1 i Love this idea, I am pretty skilled into the nova knives and my mobility specializations and would love to have the ability to throw them.it would make them much more effective against someone who sees you when you run really fast dodging their bullets, and you could throw a knife at their face! and it could add several more skillbooks to the game either for things like how far you can throw them, and how much damage they do after you let go of the knives.


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