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Chao Wolf Imperfects Negative-Feedback 209	Posted - 2012.11.28 04:17:00 - [1] - Quote Now I understand dust will be taking place in the same universe as the mmo eve, but does that make it a mmo? As of right now and how I understand things are going dust is not heading in the direction of an mmo. Dust is instead a pfps (persistent first person shooter) there is an enormous pink elephant in the room here folks. MMO implies massive meaning lots of people interacting, socialing, and more importantly fighting. Now unfortunately I'm not exactly sure what would be a good way to add the massive side to dust without removing the part that makes matches matter. The only idea I can come up with is having CCP setup a network style battle grid (for lack of better term) similar to eve's jumpgate system for fw and null sec, while also keeping the que style system we have now for high sec. Now please someone get in here and give a better suggestion to this problem cause I'm out of ideas!
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2012.11.28 04:19:00 - [2] - Quote Socializing in corp warbarges(hopefully they will have stairs to go under).
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.11.28 04:34:00 - [3] - Quote Just because there isn't a massive amount of players per battle does not mean its not an MMOFPS. In the overall universe there will be potentially millions of players across thousands of planets fighting. Most MMO battles don't involve more than a few players from my experience.
Paran Tadec Imperfects Negative-Feedback 902	Posted - 2012.11.28 05:17:00 - [4] - Quote wait til we have metagame, then judge.
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2012.11.28 06:29:00 - [5] - Quote Paran Tadec wrote: wait til we have metagame, then judge. im grow more curious with each passing day, what that meta game will entail. Too many rumors and far too much speculation to distinguish fact from crap... at this point i would not be surprised if they "released" the game without it, and started reshaping the game for a port to the PS3 and PC... this game needs a platform with some more horse power. the PS3 is almost a decade old.
Sergeant Wiznowski Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 38	Posted - 2012.11.28 08:36:00 - [6] - Quote What this game needs is paying customers. Why compete with Planetside2 when there is no competition on PS3? When they will work out integration issues they can port it to next gen console. There we could have it with extra texture packs and bigger squad sizes and battles.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.11.28 11:01:00 - [7] - Quote I think it is planned to have much larger battles, they need to get everything else fixed and optimized before increasing the player counts though. Guild wars only allows 2-8 in a group. EvE had fleets upto 256, but limited pve rewards to groups of ten, rest would get nothing. Google search shows 6 is common size in mmorpg, wow being 5 apparently. So we are pretty close already. Hopefully we get a version of EvE's leadership skill tree and structure in battles eventually. If the mcc pilot was in addition, it would be 514 players per match.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.28 11:52:00 - [8] - Quote Why do people assume that MMOFPS means large numbers of people in a single battle? MMOFPS = lots of small battles taking place in a single universe, with each battle having an affect on that universe that survives longer than the battle itself.
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2012.11.28 13:31:00 - [9] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Why do people assume that MMOFPS means large numbers of people in a single battle? MMOFPS = lots of small battles taking place in a single universe, with each battle having an affect on that universe that survives longer than the battle itself. because MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online..... it's not really a big multiplayer if you only ever deal with 4 people at a time :p that said we already have corp battles of 8v8 but I don't deem that "massive". WOW had 60 man raids (now 40 :p) I'll be happy when we get squad links (your squad links up with another squad to join in battle) how big those numbers are though are up to CCP
Encharrion L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 104	Posted - 2012.11.28 23:43:00 - [10] - Quote CCP has said that the maps will be 5 km x 5 km, so they clearly plan on having much larger matches then they do now, with at least 64 vs 64 players I'm sure.

KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.11.28 23:51:00 - [11] - Quote Captain-Awesome wrote: R F Gyro wrote: Why do people assume that MMOFPS means large numbers of people in a single battle? MMOFPS = lots of small battles taking place in a single universe, with each battle having an affect on that universe that survives longer than the battle itself. because MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online..... it's not really a big multiplayer if you only ever deal with 4 people at a time :p that said we already have corp battles of 8v8 but I don't deem that "massive". WOW had 60 man raids (now 40 :p) I'll be happy when we get squad links (your squad links up with another squad to join in battle) how big those numbers are though are up to CCP Why does the "Massively" have to refer to players per battle? There are tons of things that it can refer to that applies to Dust.
Stupid Drunk1 Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 96	Posted - 2012.11.28 23:54:00 - [12] - Quote Chao Wolf wrote: MMO implies massive meaning lots of people interacting, socialing, and more importantly fighting. Now unfortunately I'm not exactly sure what would be a good way to add the massive side to dust without removing the part that makes matches matter. The only idea I can come up with is having CCP setup a network style battle grid (for lack of better term) similar to eve's jumpgate system for fw and null sec, while also keeping the que style system we have now for high sec. Now please someone get in here and give a better suggestion to this problem cause I'm out of ideas! If im reading this right you identify what I call the "matches problem" We had it in MAG, where only matches mattered. As territory is added through the means you described or something else, it will simply make matches matter less, and less important, and will be no matches in 0.0, people will have to travel to youre home, to attack, no instant matches whatsoever. The only matches that will matter in the long run will be CCP sponsored events, wich will be tournaments for the best and britghest far and wide of all gamers for their respective corperations, in a variety of competitions. The modern Olympic Games are a major international event featuring summer and winter sports in which thousands of athletes participate for their respective country in a variety of competitions.
Sytonis Auran Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 52	Posted - 2012.11.29 00:01:00 - [13] - Quote 'Instances' have been a feature in MMORPGs for some time. 16v16 as it is in game could just be seen as a variation on on it.
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.11.29 00:33:00 - [14] - Quote so eve isn't an mmo becuase there is a limit to how many people a fight can hold? like 3000. what? what about guildwars 1 that only supported up to 50 people in the same place, not an mmo because you said so what?
crazy space ZionTCD Legacy Rising 879	Posted - 2012.11.29 00:37:00 - [15] - Quote Captain-Awesome wrote: R F Gyro wrote: Why do people assume that MMOFPS means large numbers of people in a single battle? MMOFPS = lots of small battles taking place in a single universe, with each battle having an affect on that universe that survives longer than the battle itself. because MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online..... it's not really a big multiplayer if you only ever deal with 4 people at a time :p that said we already have corp battles of 8v8 but I don't deem that "massive". WOW had 60 man raids (now 40 :p) I'll be happy when we get squad links (your squad links up with another squad to join in battle) how big those numbers are though are up to CCP things you deal with in dust 100's of players shooting you from space while they battle each other 1000s of other dust players all fighting over the same planet. World of tanks is an mmo too players using the market/mail/corps Walking around in stations and meeting eve players/betting on dust matches going on below The ability to zoom out and check on any other battles in real time using the neo com. Just becuase there is a player cap doesn't mean another team can fight on the land your fighting on. The land is real it's not randomly generated or pre made. Every single place you can fight will be one of the kind with the same pieces on the one of kind terrain. CCP said we'll get to place the buildings ourself in 0.0
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.29 00:48:00 - [16] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Why does the "Massively" have to refer to players per battle? There are tons of things that it can refer to that applies to Dust. Might be because the world has decided that's what "massively" refers to in this context. Diablo 3 has lot's of concurrent users and a global market and stuff, but it isn't a MMORPG because you're still only talking about a handful of people in a game together at once. All the extraneous stuff is just that, extraneous. Unless you have a lot of players playing together, in one game, it isn't massive.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.29 00:51:00 - [17] - Quote crazy space wrote: World of tanks is an mmo too No, it isn't. Their website refers to itself as that but that's because they're weirdo Belarusians. WoT is a persistent, competitive multiplayer game, just like Dust. It isn't an MMO. 16v16 is not massive. Just because they like to pretend it is doesn't make it so.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.29 01:01:00 - [18] - Quote Honestly, I don't ever see DUST becoming the kind of game that the term "MMOFPS" should actually apply to. MMO? Yes. FPS? Kind of. DUST 514, in its intended final form as inferred by many, many people from the information we currently have, isn't trying to be a real MMOFPS at all. It's going to be a political and financial corporate simulator, with solid infantry and vehicle customisation as well as FPS and vehicle-based combat minigames that are used to resolve territory disputes. Different players will be free to emphasise different elements of the gameplay, but really, THAT's what the devs are making, whether they stick the MMOFPS label on it or not. In a very real sense, planetary battles WILL potentially become MMOFPS games in their own right, but they're arguably NOT the core gameplay. They're a sideline to the big picture. Fighting over a planet, whether in Nullsec or Faction Warfare, will involve massive player numbers, in districts which, while instanced from one another, still influence the overall battlefield, and therefore interact with one another rather than being truly standalone battles.
Crm234 Wraith Shadow Guards 166	Posted - 2012.11.29 01:02:00 - [19] - Quote Once again its RPG players not understanding FPS games. In the FPS world mmofps always means the amount of players at the same time in one battle. That`s why there are no mmofps out there besides planetside on the PC. 128 players are not a wow factor anymore since 2005 and was a huge argument in the BF3 beta. EA didn't listen and lost to a game with a 2 year old engine last year. The only type of FPS player you will appeal to with 8vs8 player battles and co op`s are the COD crowd that love deathmatch ,and there not coming to Dust. It doesn't matter how many games are going on at the same time or how many social settings which you can talk to nerds with female avatars it will always be about the battlefield to FPS players.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2012.11.29 01:03:00 - [20] - Quote I agree with everyone who says DUST514 is not an MMO. MMO defines as a game that can handle thousands of players at the same time, in the same persistent world. Omnipotent Zitro had a post in another thread that said a small corp could handle as well as a large corp. That an elite small corp would be more effective then large ones with average gameplay. The reasoning behind this is what makes this game not an MMO. If a timer is set forth everytime one corp trys to take a planet from another, then that timer is the destruction of the MMO. If this game really is going to make it so that corp size is irrelevant, that one corp of 500 couldn't just send every merc they have down to a planet and take it all up from a weak corp then you know we have? Another FPS. Tactics and strategy? Gone. You could just field the same leet 16 players using top gear in each battle and just let everyone else in your corp just run games building ISK for them. MMO's should see real time battle simulations with a great number of people. From what I hear, when this game comes out, it won't be like that at all.

Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.11.29 01:05:00 - [21] - Quote Party size in many rpg mmo is no bigger then squad size in e3 build. The out of combat will eventually look something like a city in mmorpg, with people walking around with eve players. The size will grow over time, Jita(eve trade hub) use to get unstable with a thousand people in in, most where just looking at menus with no ship in space. Now they can have lag free battles with 3,000 ships firing missiles and launching drones. The team size will grow, but even with current team size it is still as much a mmo as many others. Guild wars is only 5 vs 5, by quick google search, I haven't play recently enough to remember.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.29 02:04:00 - [22] - Quote Well, I just... ummm... "found" a blog post that sums up my impressions of the DUST 514/MMOFPS argument quite nicely. And by "found" I mean I've been meaning to write it for some time now, and had a draft which I've finally actually got around to doing something with. http://obliviondoll.blog.com/2012/11/29/dust-514-why-mmofps-is-a-lie/
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki Onward Defrosted Tuna Team 485	Posted - 2012.11.29 02:12:00 - [23] - Quote MMO because its connected to a MMO, duh!
Sandromin Hes Sand Mercenary Corps Inc. 204	Posted - 2012.11.29 03:41:00 - [24] - Quote Chao Wolf wrote: Now I understand dust will be taking place in the same universe as the mmo eve, but does that make it a mmo? As of right now and how I understand things are going dust is not heading in the direction of an mmo. Dust is instead a pfps (persistent first person shooter) there is an enormous pink elephant in the room here folks. MMO implies massive meaning lots of people interacting, socialing, and more importantly fighting. Now unfortunately I'm not exactly sure what would be a good way to add the massive side to dust without removing the part that makes matches matter. The only idea I can come up with is having CCP setup a network style battle grid (for lack of better term) similar to eve's jumpgate system for fw and null sec, while also keeping the que style system we have now for high sec. Now please someone get in here and give a better suggestion to this problem cause I'm out of ideas! Eventually we'll have markets, social bars located in certain space stations, warbarges, etc etc.
ATR Kuan Ti Above The Rest 64	Posted - 2012.11.29 05:22:00 - [25] - Quote Chao Wolf wrote: Now I understand dust will be taking place in the same universe as the mmo eve, but does that make it a mmo? As of right now and how I understand things are going dust is not heading in the direction of an mmo. Dust is instead a pfps (persistent first person shooter) there is an enormous pink elephant in the room here folks. MMO implies massive meaning lots of people interacting, socialing, and more importantly fighting. Now unfortunately I'm not exactly sure what would be a good way to add the massive side to dust without removing the part that makes matches matter. The only idea I can come up with is having CCP setup a network style battle grid (for lack of better term) similar to eve's jumpgate system for fw and null sec, while also keeping the que style system we have now for high sec. Now please someone get in here and give a better suggestion to this problem cause I'm out of ideas! Yes its an MMOFPS becuse all the battles are going on at the same time an eve pilot will have to fly to what ever planet your on to give you air support
RedRebelCork Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 37	Posted - 2012.11.29 09:37:00 - [26] - Quote To answer this question we need to define an MMOFPS. We all know what constitutes an FPS, but what puts the MMO into an MMOFPS? If it's player count then this 'MMOFPS' has less players per battle than many traditional FPS games. So that can't be it. If it's interaction with another console/platform then this is the only 'MMO' ever. So that can't be it either. If it's having a persistent universe in which every battle contributes to the game universe then we're getting closer to Dust514 being a true MMOFPS. We have that already, albeit in a strictly controlled manner. By my reckoning Dust514 is indeed an MMOFPS, however it barely meets the minimum requirements to be considered such. Having thousands of players fighting simultaneous battles at the same time is nothing novel, all the AAA rated FPS games have that already. Having interaction with EVE is an industry milestone and I have massive respect for the future implications of this design choice. However from the perspective of Dust what difference does it make to the average player if the orbital strike someone called in was initiated by a player pressing a button or an algorithm in the game? In practical terms none. It's like playing chess via sending your moves to someone on another continent via telegrams. We don't see them, they don't see us. It's blind interaction. Imagine if we could take boarding vessels up through the atmosphere and through the viewports see an EVE battle in progress as we approach an enemy carrier to begin boarding action. Now THAT would be interaction! Some day perhaps but I'll be the first to admit that this kind of interaction is a long way off for any game. So, back to what Dust has on those games: a persistent universe underlying it in EVE. The problem here though is we can't interact with our world in the way you'd expect in an MMO. If you've played EVE or WOW or any of the other MMOs you'll know what those games involve. You can fly around (or walk), you can mine minerals, you can craft items, you can travel between trade outposts and play set-piece PvE missions with rich content. You can roam the wilderness and stalk another player, take them down and loot their shiny gear. You can equally be ambushed on your own and suffer the same fate. We have none of this. We get scheduled battles via contracts or we quick queue for games that will not really matter worth a damn. Is it an MMOFPS? Strictly speaking you have to say yes. Is it the MMOFPS that it could and SHOULD be? Not yet, not by a long shot. We're still in Beta, our purpose in this beta is to point out the shortcomings to the devs to help them make a great game. Just ask yourself this: Does it feel like you're playing an MMO? If the answer is no then let CCP know before it's too late.
STYLIE77 KILL-EM-QUICK RISE of LEGION 60	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:09:00 - [27] - Quote Chao Wolf wrote: Now I understand dust will be taking place in the same universe as the mmo eve, but does that make it a mmo? As of right now and how I understand things are going dust is not heading in the direction of an mmo. Dust is instead a pfps (persistent first person shooter) there is an enormous pink elephant in the room here folks. MMO implies massive meaning lots of people interacting, socialing, and more importantly fighting. Now unfortunately I'm not exactly sure what would be a good way to add the massive side to dust without removing the part that makes matches matter. The only idea I can come up with is having CCP setup a network style battle grid (for lack of better term) similar to eve's jumpgate system for fw and null sec, while also keeping the que style system we have now for high sec. Now please someone get in here and give a better suggestion to this problem cause I'm out of ideas! You clearly don't know what an MMO is.
SoTa PoP Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1772	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:16:00 - [28] - Quote Guys, it's been said before, the battles may SEEM real time, but they won't be. Planet battles really will be just 1 game after another until you 'win' it. It won't take an army to hold a planet, just a team.
BMSTUBBYx Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.11.29 17:42:00 - [29] - Quote MMO SOONGäó
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.30 01:09:00 - [30] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: Party size in many rpg mmo is no bigger then squad size in e3 build. The out of combat will eventually look something like a city in mmorpg, with people walking around with eve players. You have no idea what it'll look like. And in any case, a crowded lobby isn't MMO. PS Home isn't MMO. MMOs are about large numbers of players inhabiting the same persistent world. Not people milling around in some crowded instance and then going off into other instances with a handful of people. Tacking an in-game lobby onto Battlefield 3 wouldn't turn it into an MMO. Quote: The size will grow over time, Jita(eve trade hub) use to get unstable with a thousand people in in, most where just looking at menus with no ship in space. Now they can have lag free battles with 3,000 ships firing missiles and launching drones. This isn't a PC game where stuff can scale up quickly. This is a console game. It will not exceed the rather limited standards of the PS3 until several years after the PS4 is released.

HECATONCHIRES GYGES Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 151	Posted - 2012.11.30 02:13:00 - [31] - Quote Encharrion wrote: CCP has said that the maps will be 5 km x 5 km, so they clearly plan on having much larger matches then they do now, with at least 64 vs 64 players I'm sure. hes right.I dont have the link but when they were talking about the terrain builder at the EVE convention they had big maps.Also if before you spawn when you are in the NEO comm.I think it r2 to zoom out.Im not sure which button im tired.You can see the other maps that we play and roads connecting the maps.Manus peak is actually connected to that one big glitchy 5 point we used to play .The one that had communication in the middle .That they took out.If you spawn in the back not the MMC and look left you can see it over there.Lol no I havent been partaking.My guess is that they will be joined eventually.Probably conquest mode.Where you move thru all the maps.Making them on big map.With more players.
Smaug the Covetous Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2012.11.30 03:07:00 - [32] - Quote It's a beta of a shooting game like Call of Duty or Halo. There is nothing massive about this game, at least now anyway. I don't see it being an MMO anytime soon that's for sure.
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.30 20:07:00 - [33] - Quote News headline, sometime in the not too distant future.... "TEST alliance today launched their latest campaign in Malpais with simultaneous ground attacks on over 300 districts on planets held by SOLR. Almost five thousand ground troops were deployed in a coordinated move, supported by a large sub- & super-cap space fleet. The ground attacks disabled around 20 cyno jammers in total, resulting in a significant number of POS being reinforced. TEST leadership observed: 'we were going for the shock and awe effect with this'. "


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