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Piercing Serenity
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
181
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Posted - 2012.11.27 05:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
*EDIT* TL:DR - Percent armor recharge will give armor more love and still keep things balanced
I am arguing that armor is so unused because of its slow recharge rate and increased aggro when compared to shields. Additionally, the current system hurts heavies GÇô a class built to use tons of armor GÇô the most and benefits the assault and logistic class the most. The latter classes can restore their armor to full many times faster than a heavy suit can due to their many low slots to fit armor reppers, which will save their lives more often in the long run. I believe that changing the armor repair rates from GÇ£raw HP per secondGÇ¥ to GÇ£percent HP per secondGÇ¥ will largely fix this problem and encourage a greater mix between armor and shield users.
Currently, shields are preferable to armor because they shields recover larger amounts of HP per second than armor, leading to a shorter time between any given shield value and full shield health. I believe that this preference stems from the fact that the longer it takes for your health GÇô shield or armor GÇô to recover, the more aggro you draw to yourself. This results in more deaths on average. IGÇÖll use an example to illustrate this point better.
Consider my Assault and Heavy builds. I use Type II assault dropsuit with 650 EHP GÇô 450 shield and 200 armor and a a militia heavy with the same EHP but with a different split GÇô100 shield and 550 armor. LetGÇÖs assume that they both have a basic shield recharge rate of 25 Shield HP per second. They also both players run one standard armor repairer because I noticed that having a barely armor bar caused everyone to focus on them, trying to get the easy kill, regardless of how much actual health they have. 20% of my assualtGÇÖs armor is 40 HP, while 20% of my heavyGÇÖs armor is 110 HP. Because nobody can see the actual number for how much health their target has, both dropsuitGÇÖs Armor and Shield bars look equally weak, even though my heavy has almost three times as much health.
It will take my assault suit 56 seconds to be at full EHP - 16 seconds from when my shield start to recharge to reach full shield health, and 40 seconds for my armor to return to its full value.
My heavy will take 224 seconds, four times as long, to get to the same EHP GÇô 4 seconds from when my shield start to recharge to being full, and 220 seconds for my armor to recharge to full.
If there is a relationship between the time it takes to fully heal yourself and the attention you draw to yourself, all armor based suits are screwed. This should not be the case. I propose that by changing the base repair rate from GÇ£2HP/sGÇ¥ to GÇ£2% of total HP/sGÇ¥, the balance between armor and shield can be realized.
If my system were put into place, my assault suit would take 36 seconds to heal to full EHP GÇô 4 seconds for the shield and 20 for the armor. My heavy would recover to full health in 44 seconds. This seems like a much better balance to me. Both suits would recover the same effective health at far more similar rates.
Granted, my Assault suit has almost five million SP invested in it and my heavy suit has about one million. So letGÇÖs look at militia examples. A basic Type II assault suit has 225 shield and 105 armor, and a total recharge time of 49.2s. A militia heavy (without any SP investment in armor repair rate or mechanics) has 100 shield and 550 armor, and a total recharge rate of 224 seconds. My changes would not affect the repair rate of shield heavy players with little skill investment in armor, mechanics, or armor repairing. The assault suit would heal 2.1 HP/s and be completely restored in 47.2 seconds GÇô a 2 second difference. It would however, bring a balance to the recharge times between the shield heavy suit and the armor heavy suit. The militia heavy suit would be completely recharged in 44 seconds.
This would add a new dynamic to choosing whether to shield or armor tank. Shield tankers would have much shorter recharge times for their primary (read: shield) health to recover to full but draw more attention to themselves because of their slow armor repair rate. Armor tankers would sacrifice speed and shorter recharge times for a much faster regen rate.
Notice that these problems even out as SP is added to armor repairing. Our Type II suit takes 7.2 seconds to charge to full shield. This is a fast charge time, but this suit only has 225 total shield. Our militia heavy suit with a prototype repper takes 11.42 seconds to recover his primary health. The difference is still in favor of shields, but it is not nearly as drastic. IGÇÖd argue that the heavy would lose his health much faster because of his speed and hit box size, and the assault would be able to duck in and out of cover to restore health.
Now, maybe a heavy recovering its health in 12 seconds is too fast for some. ThatGÇÖs fine. We can double the time by cutting the repair rate in half. It would take 23 seconds for a militia heavy to restore health at a rate of 1% total armor/sec. The balance is much better between the two suits, in my opinion.
Tell me what you think, and please let me know if any math or numbers are wrong. I think armor needs more love too.
PSN: PiercingSerenity
Country: U.S
Class: Assault, Heavy
Corp: Shattered Ascension [SH4T] |
Elijah Sol' Dzusaki
Onward Defrosted Tuna Team
485
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 05:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
+1
Didn't read your whole post but a percentage recharge would be better. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 07:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
That would either make armour reppers horrible underpowered for EVERYONE, or would make Heavies OP instead of balanced like they will be when Logis are rewarded fairly for repping you.
Problem is the "hotfix" that's holding back many Logi players from using Repair Tools. No WP at all means very few Logi players running as healers, which in turn means you're relying on your Armour Repairers ALL the time, instead of just as a stopgap measure while your Logi gets around to patching you up. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance
Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.11.27 09:01:00 -
[4] - Quote
Armour plates should be percentage based off of current plate on assault suit. So, they are buffed on heavies and nerfed on scouts that shouldn't use them much anyway. Infantry armour resit modules would also help the balance. |
HowDidThatTaste
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2242
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Posted - 2012.11.27 11:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
Thanks Op. Great idea.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks a heavy must rely on a logi. Not even tanks need another player to rep there armor,a nd they have many options to harden their armor.
A tank can role off to a resupply depot and recharge his health in 5 times the speed it takes a logi to heal the health if a heavy.
Why should a heavy rely on another player to heal his armor? No other player in the game require this?
What the heavy needs is more slots period. We get one extra slot for advanced and on for proto. Nothing else changes except CPU/pg and price.
I find in my advanced suit the extra slot is used for a CPU module anyway, just so I can use a better smog so the extra slot does nothing to help my armor situation.
I agree with the op heavies need some reason to use the armor suits, so a passive regent would help this. |
DJINN Riot
63
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Posted - 2012.11.27 11:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:Thanks Op. Great idea.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks a heavy must rely on a logi. Not even tanks need another player to rep there armor,a nd they have many options to harden their armor.
A tank can role off to a resupply depot and recharge his health in 5 times the speed it takes a logi to heal the health if a heavy.
Why should a heavy rely on another player to heal his armor? No other player in the game require this?
What the heavy needs is more slots period. We get one extra slot for advanced and on for proto. Nothing else changes except CPU/pg and price.
I find in my advanced suit the extra slot is used for a CPU module anyway, just so I can use a better smog so the extra slot does nothing to help my armor situation.
I agree with the op heavies need some reason to use the armor suits, so a passive regent would help this.
I agree entirely, I wont invest more skill points into the heavy suit then i already have unless i come across an ungodly amount. There is not sufficient incentive for me to invest the 1.8m sp required for 1 high slot.
I think if the armor plates gave a percentage, that would make me much more survivable. As it stands, shield heavies have a lot more survivability because of their increase movement speed and rapid ehp regen. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 11:44:00 -
[7] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:Thanks Op. Great idea.
I'm not sure why everyone thinks a heavy must rely on a logi. Not even tanks need another player to rep there armor,a nd they have many options to harden their armor.
A tank can role off to a resupply depot and recharge his health in 5 times the speed it takes a logi to heal the health if a heavy.
Why should a heavy rely on another player to heal his armor? No other player in the game require this?
What the heavy needs is more slots period. We get one extra slot for advanced and on for proto. Nothing else changes except CPU/pg and price.
I find in my advanced suit the extra slot is used for a CPU module anyway, just so I can use a better smog so the extra slot does nothing to help my armor situation.
I agree with the op heavies need some reason to use the armor suits, so a passive regent would help this.
Tanks need someone else to repair them when their active repair module is on cooldown, or when they chose to fit something else instead of the repper for some reason.
Tanks can run to a Supply Depot to heal, you say? Guess what? So can a Heavy. And they can swap fittings and regen faster than that tank can repair at a Depot.
And Heavies don't NEED a logi to repair them. Just like other suits, they only need a Logi to repair them FAST.
I won't argue against giving Heavies more slots though - or more CPU/PG - at least the higher-tier versions. They don't seem to get better by as much as other suit types do as they upgrade. If your CPU/PG increases were greater, you wouldn't be needing that CPU Upgrade so urgently, then you'd have the slot free to add something else instead. Like another Armour Plate, or Repairer. |
HowDidThatTaste
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2242
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 11:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Garrett Blacknova wrote:
Tanks need someone else to repair them when their active repair module is on cooldown, or when they chose to fit something else instead of the repper for some reason.
Tanks can run to a Supply Depot to heal, you say? Guess what? So can a Heavy. And they can swap fittings and regen faster than that tank can repair at a Depot.
And Heavies don't NEED a logi to repair them. Just like other suits, they only need a Logi to repair them FAST.
I won't argue against giving Heavies more slots though - or more CPU/PG - at least the higher-tier versions. They don't seem to get better by as much as other suit types do as they upgrade. If your CPU/PG increases were greater, you wouldn't be needing that CPU Upgrade so urgently, then you'd have the slot free to add something else instead. Like another Armour Plate, or Repairer.
As you say after their hardener or plural hardener's are on cool down you need someone to repair you not if you chose not to use a rep per. These are choices a heavy does not have. 98 % of heavies has a rep per in his low slot, unless you are in a final stand suit or something.
Giving a passive recharge would allow us the ability to mix up our build a little. In an advanced suit the extra slot is the first choice we have to use a unique mod, cause the first one is always used to regent armor.
Just to address your point on the heavy suit swap. Yes it is faster to swap suits than the tank repairs, but your not taking in to consideration the agonizing slow waddle it takes to get to the resupply depot from the same spot. the tank will have been to the depot regenerated and be back by the time a heavy reaches the depot. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 12:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
HowDidThatTaste wrote:Giving a passive recharge would allow us the ability to mix up our build a little. In an advanced suit the extra slot is the first choice we have to use a unique mod, cause the first one is always used to regent armor.
Passive regen on Heavy suits - as a suit-specific benefit, basically making Heavies "count as" having an Armour Repairer even when they don't - is a great idea.
Giving the higher-tier Heavy suits more PG/CPU, more slots, or a combination of both, is also a good idea.
Making Armour Reppers work on a percentage basis, as suggested in the OP, and as this thread has been discussing so far, is what I was arguing against. |
Volgair
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
200
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 13:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
The OP's idea is good, but it invalidates the logistics roll, and would ultimately serve to make the Heavy DropSuit over powered again. I am saying that with my primary roll being that of a suppression fire Heavy.
Instead, i would rather see EVE resistances added and applied to modify existing dust mechanics. in this way.
Shields-
Pro- Light fittings, Fast recharge
Con- extreme native susceptibility to EM damage.
Armor-
Pro- High damage resistance (Specific percentage based on Empire), Deeper potential pools
Con- Slow due to weight
Barring either idea, for these extreme changes to the current system. Something that may bridge the gap between our ideas is an unique (meaning you can only have one) auto-repairing, adaptive armor plate module that repairs damage slower the worse the damage is.
For Example
+3%hp to base Armor pool
90-100% - 12hp/s
85-90%- 7hp/s
70-85%- 4hp/s
25-70%- 3hp/s
1-25%- 1hp/s
its garbage in a pinch, but bad ass for sustainability.
-Or-
For Example
+3%hp to base Armor Pool
90-100% - 1hp/s
35-90%- 2hp/s
20-35%- 6hp/s (this is the point at which a heavy can take 2-4 uninterrupted seconds of GEK fire)
10-20%- 8hp/s
1-10%- 12hp/s
in terms of prolonged sustainability its garbage, but coupled with a logistics would make for some amazing stay power. these added to existing linear reps and plates would serve to solve the majority of your current issues. |
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Piercing Serenity
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
181
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 13:59:00 -
[11] - Quote
Thanks you guys. I hadn't considered Garret' point until this morning. My 'hotfix' didn't consider the fact that logis will eventually be rewarded for repairing people again.
I'm personally in favor of a passive armor repairer that uses the repairing system Volgair suggests.
Cheers,
PSN: PiercingSerenity
Country: US
Class: Assault, Heavy
Corp: Shattered Ascension [SH4T] |
Volgair
Tritan-Industries
Legacy Rising
200
|
Posted - 2012.11.27 16:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
the linear rep's and other existing modules should stay as they are. perhaps make a "heavy" variant that reps 5hp/s for militia and 11hp/s for complex to appropriately compensate heavy's for their larger pool. but i would make them reduce speed just as a larger plate would.
This would then give us;
- Armor Plate's- fixed bonus to HP, Reduces speed.
- Armor Rep's- Linear return to HP pool
- Heavy Armor Rep's- Linear return to HP pool. Prohibitive, almost extreme fitting requirements. Slight reduction to speed, or perhaps instead of a reduction of speed, a reduction to shield recharge rate or delay.
- Regenerating Plate's- nonlinear HP return. Reduces speed. |
Sinboto Simmons
SVER True Blood
Unclaimed.
140
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Posted - 2012.11.27 16:18:00 -
[13] - Quote
this may be better in the feedback/request forum otherwise great thread  |
Axierastos Satrap
4
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Posted - 2012.11.29 17:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
TrueMenGäó use armor, it needs more love! |
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