DUST Search - I'd almost forgotten the hit detection issues yesterday...

KripnawtiQ Prime wrote:

Sir Petersen wrote:

And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game?

Nobody on this forum would argue that this game is incomplete.

CCP is allowing people to PAY for access to this game through merc packs. CCP is allowing people to BUY Aur, which is used to purchase in game content.

Believe it or not this process of using currency in exchange for goods and services has a word: Retail.

Anybody playing this game that bought any amount of Aurum is a paying customer.

Hiding behid the fact that this game is a work in progress and using it as an excuse to have the same problems build after build is not acceptable if CCP is going to take peoples money. Hit detection needs fixed-not excuses.

CCP has admitted this game wil ALWAYS be in progress. How are they going to do all the things they are planning if they cant even get past core gameplay mechanics. Forget gunships, fighter jets and PvE. Right now this game is failing as an FPS....and people are frustrated by it because they want the game to succeed.

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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.18 08:59:00 - [1] - Quote ...but then today happened. Shotgun. Point-blank. Firing at a target less than a metre from melee range. First 3 shots deal a combined total of 0 damage. Literally. Next shot takes about half the target's shield. My Militia Shotgun has only one shot left, and the enemy finally noticed that I'm shooting at him now. He starts moving, and I adjust my aim as he backs up. Last shot kills him. Then I take a single round from his AR that takes down my shields and half my armour. After he died. I thought, "oh well, just a once-off" - until the next enemy showed up, and I managed to get behind him and unload 2 shots which only stripped about 10% of his shields before he turned and gunned me down with his AR. In 2 bullets. The same pattern repeated a few times during the course of that match, and I got pretty mad at it. But I shrugged it off again, telling myself, "just a laggy game" and "next round will be better. It was, too. But I still had a couple of REALLY bad moments with point-blank shotguns dealing no damage. And the best one was where I lined up on the head of an Assault suit with my Laser Rifle, opened up, and without moving, he turned around, and fired with his own Laser Rifle. My Heavy suit died faster than his Assault.
Sir Petersen Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation 112	Posted - 2012.11.18 09:02:00 - [2] - Quote And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.18 09:04:00 - [3] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? No, but the past few days, and particularly yesterday, I've had a REALLY good run, and almost forgot there was still a problem. Got it beaten back into my head pretty hard. Still having fun though :)
Captain-Awesome Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 349	Posted - 2012.11.18 09:41:00 - [4] - Quote there's still hit issues but I just keep telling myself next build has performance / quality increases so just wait it out. I love the game as it is though so I'm happy - the team work is so important and level design helps get more guys around you. I like halo and cod but the ability to surround your foes in this game is much nicer than the corridor effect I get from halo and cod.
KripnawtiQ Prime L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 206	Posted - 2012.11.18 12:15:00 - [5] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? Nobody on this forum would argue that this game is incomplete. CCP is allowing people to PAY for access to this game through merc packs. CCP is allowing people to BUY Aur, which is used to purchase in game content. Believe it or not this process of using currency in exchange for goods and services has a word: Retail. Anybody playing this game that bought any amount of Aurum is a paying customer. Hiding behid the fact that this game is a work in progress and using it as an excuse to have the same problems build after build is not acceptable if CCP is going to take peoples money. Hit detection needs fixed-not excuses. CCP has admitted this game wil ALWAYS be in progress. How are they going to do all the things they are planning if they cant even get past core gameplay mechanics. Forget gunships, fighter jets and PvE. Right now this game is failing as an FPS....and people are frustrated by it because they want the game to succeed.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.18 12:36:00 - [6] - Quote KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? Nobody on this forum would argue that this game is incomplete. CCP is allowing people to PAY for access to this game through merc packs. CCP is allowing people to BUY Aur, which is used to purchase in game content. Believe it or not this process of using currency in exchange for goods and services has a word: Retail. Anybody playing this game that bought any amount of Aurum is a paying customer. Hiding behid the fact that this game is a work in progress and using it as an excuse to have the same problems build after build is not acceptable if CCP is going to take peoples money. Hit detection needs fixed-not excuses. CCP has admitted this game wil ALWAYS be in progress. How are they going to do all the things they are planning if they cant even get past core gameplay mechanics. Forget gunships, fighter jets and PvE. Right now this game is failing as an FPS....and people are frustrated by it because they want the game to succeed. I wasn't expecting this thread to get such a sensible response. Much as I was hoping otherwise, I expected more people would take it as trollbait. Thanks guys, for proving me wrong And I have to say, in spite of how bad my earlier session was (yesterday now, it's 1am here), it's still better than it used to be. They haven't TOTALLY fixed hit detection, but they've improved it a LOT since I first played (E3 build).
R F Gyro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 315	Posted - 2012.11.18 12:50:00 - [7] - Quote Hit detection in an online FPS is impossible to "fix", because there are three separate perspectives (shooter, target and server) that are separated by hundreds of milliseconds of latency. It can be done better or worse, from any particular perspective, but there is no fix. If you make things more accurate from the shooter's perspective you'll make it less accurate from the target's. For example: you see someone about to shoot you so you duck back behind a wall. Then you die anyway, because the shooter's PS3 didn't know that you had got into cover when it detected the hit. From what I've read elsewhere, using the server's frame of reference is the fairest (and hardest to cheat), but most games end up using the shooter's side because players prefer accuracy on that side and are less concerned about accuracy on the target side. Anyway, if hit detection has got worse it is almost certainly because latency/lag got worse rather than a change to the hit detection itself.
Gaff Origami ZionTCD Legacy Rising 49	Posted - 2012.11.18 13:35:00 - [8] - Quote This is what's always bothered me is that at some level (probably client-side) hit detection IS working...we're getting orange 'X's and we're getting shield flashes but we're NOT getting damage. What is broken is the transfer of this hit to the server so it can register appropriate damage to the other player. At first I thought this really only affected snipers since this is what I play and we seem to whine the loudest but now I'm reallizing it affects all 1-shot weapons...shotgun, nova knife, etc. Hopefully this problem is being tracked and prioritized appropriately by CCP. Since this is beta I would like to see them experiment with different hit detection (client, server, etc.) at the very least.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.18 13:42:00 - [9] - Quote Hit detection isn't always about lag. Sometimes it's ACTUALLY about hit detection. The system tracking hitboxes incorrectly, or tracing your shots either from the wrong location or in the wrong direction. It's possible for a target, in some games, to make themselves invulnerable with hitbox glitching - bunnyhopping, dolphin diving, etc. started out as hit detection exploits. It's not ONLY about lag, but the majority of the legitimate complaints seem to have been resolved. And as I've said, more often than not in the Codex build, I'm seeing my shots hitting their mark properly, unless I screw up. EDIT: While I'm not a GOOD sniper, I have experimented with sniping a few times in old builds and in Codex, and I can say that Snipers are a lot better off now than they were in the E3 build.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.18 14:39:00 - [10] - Quote R F Gyro wrote: Hit detection in an online FPS is impossible to "fix", because there are three separate perspectives (shooter, target and server) that are separated by hundreds of milliseconds of latency. It isn't exclusively a latency issue, as mentioned. When you do a lot of sniping you get a different perspective on it. I've shot enemy snipers who were sitting still, in the open, and done no damage. I've emptied entire magazines from my sniper rifle into them to no avail. What makes me know it isn't latency is that, not only is the rest of the game progressing as normal, but the target begins looking around as my shots impact him but don't hurt him. So he is clearly hearing the shots firing, and I can see him doing the little panic wiggle that snipers do when they hear shots travelling near to them. So it's not latency. Not all the time at least. There is something fundamentally flawed in the way the game tracks and updates people shooting each other. And that is something that can be fixed, because we've all played games where there are zero hit detection issues, ever.

Torkada Alamstrada Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 184	Posted - 2012.11.18 14:39:00 - [11] - Quote I got busy with my job and left for slightly over a month. When I returned, hit detection was noticeably better. Dramatically so, for me. I guess they're tweaking it all along.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.11.18 14:44:00 - [12] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? Bash your head into a wall until it starts to bleed.
Gaff Origami ZionTCD Legacy Rising 49	Posted - 2012.11.18 14:52:00 - [13] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: So it's not latency. Not all the time at least. There is something fundamentally flawed in the way the game tracks and updates people shooting each other. And that is something that can be fixed, because we've all played games where there are zero hit detection issues, ever. Agreed, this is the only FPS where I've actually felt compelled to write about "hit detection" on a forum since it's bothered me so much. On other games when I duck behind a wall and end up still getting killed I'm OK with because I realize the nature of latency but this is clearly not a latency issue as it happens when both shooter and target are stationary and have been for many seconds.
Ima Leet Imperfects Negative-Feedback 321	Posted - 2012.11.18 16:33:00 - [14] - Quote i've totally had this issue as well man, not just you. yesterday i saw people teleporting and not walking. one guy with a shotty was about 10 yards out running at me, i start shooting at him, then the next second he was in my face... i was like " o shi, wtf" this is the overall network issues i think needs resolved.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.11.18 16:48:00 - [15] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? Bash your head into a wall until it starts to bleed. Look, see, since you called me names I had to follow you here to this thread. Yes, I admit that it was trollish to follow you and to say that you called me names. But I wanted to also say I agree with the sentiment you expressed above. Saying "it's a beta" when posters like in the OP are pointing out problems that have been improved upon but not solved also makes me want to face palm. That is exactly what we are supposed to do in a beta, point out problems with game play. In a straightforward and reasonable manner.
Jotun Hiem Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 412	Posted - 2012.11.18 16:54:00 - [16] - Quote KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: Believe it or not this process of using currency in exchange for goods and services has a word: Retail. What about people like me who haven't spent a single cent on... anything?
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.18 17:16:00 - [17] - Quote Jotun Hiem wrote: KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: Believe it or not this process of using currency in exchange for goods and services has a word: Retail. What about people like me who haven't spent a single cent on... anything? In that case, you, personally, are NOT a paying customer, but it doesn't mean it's worth calling someone out and using "it's a beta" to tell someone that they have no right to point out flaws in the game. More importantly though, this thread was partly a way for me to vent frustration, partly drawing attention to the fact that the issues in question are still not in an ideal state (though it's getting better), and partly just opening up for a potentially entertaining discussion. All in all, I think I achieved my aims.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.11.18 17:56:00 - [18] - Quote KripnawtiQ Prime wrote: CCP is allowing people to PAY for access to this game through merc packs. CCP is allowing people to BUY Aur, which is used to purchase in game content. Believe it or not this process of using currency in exchange for goods and services has a word: Retail. This is not technically true. What you pay for with the merc pack is AUR and a few in game items. So as a paying customer all you might really be entitled to take issue with with are the items (such as the toxin smg, dragonfly scout suit) and the aur. So you would have a valid point if the dragonfly suit was depicted as blue but really turned out to be orange. Or if the 30 day booster only lasted 10 days. Yes, the sucky thing is that the items are great (at least I though the were) but where you have to go to use those items is still under construction. And there is this little clause you kind of sign off on by accessing the beta about helping with the construction by providing feedback. People with greater legal expertise than I will have to decide exactly what is and isn't bought or sold in a free to play game where you received early access to a test version of that game as a promotional gift when buying items for a game that doesn't cost anything and doesn't yet exist in its "retail" form, and, as it is free, will never exist in retail formGÇª Say Disney were to open a new "free to enter!" exclusively Star Wars theme park. Say they put together a promotion where you can buy a Luke Sky walker outfit, a Princess Leah stroller, a couple thousand Jedi dollars, a box of Jar Jar donuts, a Millennium Falcon golf cart and a meal at the Mos Eisley cantina. The catch is that you can only use these things in the theme park. But they let you in the park before the official opening as a special promotion. So you decide to buy the stuff and go. Who wouldn't? But only 2 of the rides are working due to technical difficulties, the really slow rides for toddlers. And you only had the one week off. And they still make you fill out a survey when you leave. Worst vacation ever. So you can always go back next year but by then the park will be open to the public. WIll they still have trouble getting all the rides working every day? Who knows. At least you'll still get to eat your Jar Jar donuts if you feel like going back. So, were you a sucker for paying for all that stuff? Or is Disney evil corporate scum for letting you go and spend money on stuff you didn't need and then letting you into an amusement park that was under construction with 80 percent of the rides down?
Roy Bombega Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2012.11.18 18:16:00 - [19] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? "ITS JUST A BETA" is never an appropriate response.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.11.18 18:19:00 - [20] - Quote it's worse when a scout with a shotgun runs right on top of remote explosives when they go off (keep in mind these 1-shot heavies) and they take no damage, then kill you in your face.

Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.11.18 18:26:00 - [21] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? Isn't that the point of this thread? How constructive would the beta be if nobody complained about, or even mentioned problems. Then after launch, it would be "this game sux and r dum; i kwitt."
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.18 18:27:00 - [22] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: "this game sux and r dum; i qwit." You spelt "kwitt" wrong.
Scheneighnay McBob Bojo's School of the Trades 1058	Posted - 2012.11.18 19:01:00 - [23] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: "this game sux and r dum; i qwit." You spelt "kwitt" wrong. fixed
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.11.19 00:31:00 - [24] - Quote Roy Bombega wrote: Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? "ITS JUST A BETA" is never an appropriate response. It is when the complaints can be parsed as: "This game is so uncompleted, it is like they are still working on it and expect us to try out different things and offer feedback. So lame." In that case "Its a beta" is the only appropriate response.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.19 01:30:00 - [25] - Quote Threads like this serve as impetus for CCP to resolve the issue. Lest they be lulled into thinking a FPS game where you can't reliably shoot other players is something they might be able to get away with.
daniel philp Algintal Core Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.11.19 04:49:00 - [26] - Quote Sir Petersen wrote: And what? Did you forget you are playing a Beta version of the game? Reminding them that these problems are still there helps them fix it, after all its beta right? they need feedback...
SWAGIZM Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 11	Posted - 2012.11.19 04:52:00 - [27] - Quote This game's netcode plays like an early alpha build. It's god awful. No surprise though, CCP always need to reinvent the wheel. I guess instead of using a tried and true hitscan system they have coded their own from scratch. At least, that's what it plays like.
Shijima Kuraimaru WarRavens 164	Posted - 2012.11.19 11:39:00 - [28] - Quote It doesn't only happen with single shot weapons. I ripped into the back of an assault with my HMG. I was getting hit confirmation but wasn't doing any damage as he turned around and killed me with his AR.
Bhor Derri Legion of Eden 95	Posted - 2012.11.19 12:52:00 - [29] - Quote Even worse I had a shotgun I kept shooting at some dude at point blank range after a second or two I noticed something, I wasn't firing at all WTF!?!? EDIT: I mean I had the shooting animation and all but my bullets didn't seem to register leaving the barrel I always had 8 rounds in
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.19 15:07:00 - [30] - Quote SWAGIZM wrote: This game's netcode plays like an early alpha build. It's god awful. No surprise though, CCP always need to reinvent the wheel. I guess instead of using a tried and true hitscan system they have coded their own from scratch. At least, that's what it plays like. This game's netcode plays infinitely better than the netcode for the Assassin's Creed games. That's not really an argument against your point though.



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