DUST Search - The problem with AV

EnglishSnake wrote:

DJINN Riot wrote:

I have kinda sat back, and played a Pro-CCP role in the AV vs Vehicle debate until now. Playing the roll of a fit better, or the team up guy, but there are some flaws in the AV vs V design that i would like to address having invested the time, and skill points to better myself.

2) Strength difference

A fully loaded Sagaris should beat a fully loaded, and maxed heavy, every day of the week. But there has to be something that can be done. I have max armor, and max shields at this point, running the complex extenders and everything, and can still be 1 hit by a tank, even by a tank gunner(with the light turret). The SP difference between those two is astronomical, as a forge gunner you need to have, Weaponry V, Forge Gun V, Forge gun PROF II, Mechanics V, Shield management V, Electronics, engineering at least to II, Grenadier at least to I, Shield operation to IV, shield upgrades III, armor upgrades III.

Where as a tank gunner, running the light weapon needs exclusively, Light turret V, Light turret Proficiency V.

As it stands, I have started creating a new character, and wont be running forge gun next reset. I will be speccing rail tank, because at least they can take 1 hit, and keep shooting, as it stands, the heavy dropsuit does not cut it, and i have seen no response by CCP that something is not working as intended or will be fixed.

Point 2 - Yes a gunner doesnt need any skills at all to use the small turret seats

But the driver needs Vehicle LVL5, Caldari HAV lvl3, Small missiles lvl5, Small missiles prof lvl1 that is so he can have the 1st set of proto small missiles on it

Also include support skills so it doesnt die in one hit, Mechanics lvl5, Engineering lvl5, Electronics lvl5, Shield management lvl5, Shield upgrades lvl5, Shield adaptation lvl1-3 also skills for large turrets so large turrets lvl 3 for example but proto requires lvl5 prof lvl1 at least

Ive prob missed out a few skills that i am also invested in for my HAV but SP wise its 4.7mil at least and its still going up and that is just for the driver so the HAV can be strong enough to take a few hits and also put on decent guns for his gunners

So while you think that the gunner has it so easy your wrong because the one with the points is the driver and he has alot more invested than you in SP and ISK

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DJINN Riot 63	Posted - 2012.11.15 23:29:00 - [1] - Quote I have kinda sat back, and played a Pro-CCP role in the AV vs Vehicle debate until now. Playing the roll of a fit better, or the team up guy, but there are some flaws in the AV vs V design that i would like to address having invested the time, and skill points to better myself. 1) No reward for the amount of risk. The vehicle kills you do manage to make, offer very little rewards. Shooting down a drop ship will almost always(lag/skill excluded), award you a vehicle kill, and nothing else, as any pilot/gunner/passenger worth their salt will bail as soon as the ship takes critical dmg and starts plummeting towards the earth. Also, The fact that a tank can one hit a heavy(with max advanced fit armor or shields), and a heavy will most time need to unload an entire clip, or two into the beast to take it down, rewarding that heavy player with 150 pts(plus 1-3 kills) for pushing every ounce of skill he has to take the mutha down, to me just doesn't cut it. Especially when said sagaris is completely 1v16 our whole team. 2) Strength difference A fully loaded Sagaris should beat a fully loaded, and maxed heavy, every day of the week. But there has to be something that can be done. I have max armor, and max shields at this point, running the complex extenders and everything, and can still be 1 hit by a tank, even by a tank gunner(with the light turret). The SP difference between those two is astronomical, as a forge gunner you need to have, Weaponry V, Forge Gun V, Forge gun PROF II, Mechanics V, Shield management V, Electronics, engineering at least to II, Grenadier at least to I, Shield operation to IV, shield upgrades III, armor upgrades III. Where as a tank gunner, running the light weapon needs exclusively, Light turret V, Light turret Proficiency V. As it stands, I have started creating a new character, and wont be running forge gun next reset. I will be speccing rail tank, because at least they can take 1 hit, and keep shooting, as it stands, the heavy dropsuit does not cut it, and i have seen no response by CCP that something is not working as intended or will be fixed.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.16 00:17:00 - [2] - Quote DJINN Riot wrote: I have kinda sat back, and played a Pro-CCP role in the AV vs Vehicle debate until now. Playing the roll of a fit better, or the team up guy, but there are some flaws in the AV vs V design that i would like to address having invested the time, and skill points to better myself. 1) No reward for the amount of risk. The vehicle kills you do manage to make, offer very little rewards. Shooting down a drop ship will almost always(lag/skill excluded), award you a vehicle kill, and nothing else, as any pilot/gunner/passenger worth their salt will bail as soon as the ship takes critical dmg and starts plummeting towards the earth. This is worse than you make it out to be. If the game registers the kill as being from burn damage (which it often will in a crash scenario), you only get an Assist. Same applies to LAV destruction if you set the vehicle on fire and it explodes due to the burn damage. Quote: 2) Strength difference A fully loaded Sagaris should beat a fully loaded, and maxed heavy, every day of the week. But there has to be something that can be done. I have max armor, and max shields at this point, running the complex extenders and everything, and can still be 1 hit by a tank, even by a tank gunner(with the light turret). The SP difference between those two is astronomical, as a forge gunner you need to have, Weaponry V, Forge Gun V, Forge gun PROF II, Mechanics V, Shield management V, Electronics, engineering at least to II, Grenadier at least to I, Shield operation to IV, shield upgrades III, armor upgrades III. Where as a tank gunner, running the light weapon needs exclusively, Light turret V, Light turret Proficiency V. And again, worse than you make it sound, because the gunner needs NO skills. You just need someone ON YOUR TEAM to have the relevant skills to fit the tank appropriately, then ANYONE can man that turret and direct the full firepower of the weapon. Quote: As it stands, I have started creating a new character, and wont be running forge gun next reset. I will be speccing rail tank, because at least they can take 1 hit, and keep shooting, as it stands, the heavy dropsuit does not cut it, and i have seen no response by CCP that something is not working as intended or will be fixed. 1 vs. 1, a Heavy will ALWAYS lose against an equal-tier HAV. Even a tier below, it's reasonable to expect the HAV to win. Working as intended. I agree with your point that SMALL Turrets shouldn't one-shot Heavies - again, assuming good fittings and equivalent meta level, but even with that threat, Heavies are a powerful AV tool. Put a couple of Forge Heavies alongside a Swarm Launcher and you have a good tankbusting team. You'll need at least one dedicated anti-personnel player, preferably more, and if you don't have 2 or 3 people keeping enemy infantry off your Heavies, one of them (or the Swarm guy) needs to pull double duty with their Sidearm.
Nicol Bolas Planeswalker Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 102	Posted - 2012.11.16 00:33:00 - [3] - Quote Good post. You're right about risk vs. reward, and burn damage. It's also annoying to see someone take the kill when you've been grinding down a tank, but that's far less important. As far as equal tier units going toe to toe, the AV should always lose. This is not a problem, were it otherwise vehicles would be dramatically underpowered. Team work is an absolute must if you want to ttake AV seriously. It's more important to have good team work and tactics than good gear. I killed a take today with my protoforge. No team work, it took about 6 shots, and that's with proficiency 2, and a 10% heavy damage modifier. It wasn't easy and I almost died but I was able to use the terrain to my advantage and caught the tank offguard where it couldn't easily defend itself. It felt good, but if I had been in a unit with other AV it wouldn't have been a challenge, and the tank driver would be here in the forums QQ. Everyone should have a militia swarm fit with AV nades, or alternately a militia forge fit. Last thing, pick your battles. Just because you are probably going to die doesn't mean you should resign yourself to deafeat. A big part of AV is controlling vehicle operating area. Scare it away. Shake it up and run off. It doesn't have to end in a kill
4447 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 649	Posted - 2012.11.16 00:48:00 - [4] - Quote Wait until the tankers come.
The Polish Hammer Doomheim 373	Posted - 2012.11.16 00:49:00 - [5] - Quote I've gotta vouch for Riot in this one. The cost : benefit ratio is way off. Both on terms of ISK and SP. I can understand not getting hardly anything for just popping some militia LAVs, that's fine, but when it comes to blowing up million ISK tanks it's pitiful. Riot, what would propose as a "fix" (read: balance) to the heavy suit? I've posted some ideas I had here before.
DJINN Riot 63	Posted - 2012.11.16 01:24:00 - [6] - Quote The Polish Hammer wrote: Riot, what would propose as a "fix" (read: balance) to the heavy suit? I've posted some ideas I had here before. I guess there are a few fixes i can see to make it easier to go up against a tank. Require less SP investment Require less isk investment A reduction on splash vs heavies i have seen purposed i think would help I've seen recent (well thought out) threads where people have purposed reducing the raw dmg output of light turrets and large turrets, which is a step in the right direction. (https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=44816) Adding another tier of skills, vehicle engineering, vehicle electronics, vehicle shield management, vehicle mechanics as seems to be the trend will do a lot to eleavate the disadvantage i see to tackling these behemoths. As far as fix for the amount of WP awarded per vehicle kill could be to make the vehicle a much larger pool of points, and then those WP's are distributed amongst percentage wise to those who participated in the killl. When a dropship goes to 0 shield, and 0 armor, make it blow up midair, MCC style. And to respond to the standard issue trolling: I do use team tactics, and our corp have a very high success ratio taking out tanks and vehicles. That's not my issue, my issue is that it is more beneficial to me to spend my match running around running and gunning, then to try to tackle tanks. Not to mention when i am surrounded by blue dots because i am grinding isk to buy Proto gear. I really am not trying to make this a QQ thread, or call for the nerf hammer. It is just really frustrating to me as a AV player, to put so much of my time and effort and isk into attempting the proverbial dragon slaying. It is just the raw amount of numbers you can put on a equally SP'd Tank driver are incredibly mismatched. The points for taking out a sagaris 1v15ing my swarm of blue dots, compared to the amount of effort and time it takes out of me to kill it, equaling 250 some points, seems broken.
The Polish Hammer Doomheim 373	Posted - 2012.11.16 01:50:00 - [7] - Quote Require less SP investment YES Require less isk investment YES A reduction on splash vs heavies i have seen purposed i think would help YES As far as fix for the amount of WP awarded per vehicle kill could be to make the vehicle a much larger pool of points, and then those WP's are distributed amongst percentage wise to those who participated in the kill. YESYESYES When a dropship goes to 0 shield, and 0 armor, make it blow up midair, MCC style. This is a big one. I've wondered for a long time why they don't. Quote: And to respond to the standard issue trolling: I do use team tactics, and our corp have a very high success ratio taking out tanks and vehicles. That's not my issue, my issue is that it is more beneficial to me to spend my match running around running and gunning, then to try to tackle tanks. Not to mention when i am surrounded by blue dots because i am grinding isk to buy Proto gear. I really am not trying to make this a QQ thread, or call for the nerf hammer. It is just really frustrating to me as a AV player, to put so much of my time and effort and isk into attempting the proverbial dragon slaying. It is just the raw amount of numbers you can put on a equally SP'd Tank driver are incredibly mismatched. The points for taking out a sagaris 1v15ing my swarm of blue dots, compared to the amount of effort and time it takes out of me to kill it, equaling 250 some points, seems broken. It's a sad day when you have to put disclaimers on your posts for trolls....
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.16 02:29:00 - [8] - Quote The Polish Hammer wrote: When a dropship goes to 0 shield, and 0 armor, make it blow up midair, MCC style. This is a big one. I've wondered for a long time why they don't. MCCs take damage in large enough doses to tip them over the edge from Armour into Hull then death near-instantly. Dropships don't. There's hull damage to be taken while the Dropship falls. Hit it hard enough and it WILL explode in mid-air. The problem is that when a Dropship takes that last armour-breaking hit, the damage doesn't seem to be carrying over into the hull - or the hull HP is too high. Dropships surviving lethal damage with a shred of hull HP and falling from the sky SHOULD happen, but shouldn't ALWAYS happen.
DJINN Riot 63	Posted - 2012.11.16 02:47:00 - [9] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: The Polish Hammer wrote: When a dropship goes to 0 shield, and 0 armor, make it blow up midair, MCC style. This is a big one. I've wondered for a long time why they don't. MCCs take damage in large enough doses to tip them over the edge from Armour into Hull then death near-instantly. Dropships don't. There's hull damage to be taken while the Dropship falls. Hit it hard enough and it WILL explode in mid-air. The problem is that when a Dropship takes that last armour-breaking hit, the damage doesn't seem to be carrying over into the hull - or the hull HP is too high. Dropships surviving lethal damage with a shred of hull HP and falling from the sky SHOULD happen, but shouldn't ALWAYS happen. I know for a fact it does not happen. I have PELTED drop ships plummeting from the air with a breach, assault and standard forge gun, countless times. I do this every time i am drop ship hunting, because i don't want it to escape with a shred and pull out at the last minute. Drop ships do not explode mid air, and they should.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.16 03:05:00 - [10] - Quote DJINN Riot wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: The Polish Hammer wrote: When a dropship goes to 0 shield, and 0 armor, make it blow up midair, MCC style. This is a big one. I've wondered for a long time why they don't. MCCs take damage in large enough doses to tip them over the edge from Armour into Hull then death near-instantly. Dropships don't. There's hull damage to be taken while the Dropship falls. Hit it hard enough and it WILL explode in mid-air. The problem is that when a Dropship takes that last armour-breaking hit, the damage doesn't seem to be carrying over into the hull - or the hull HP is too high. Dropships surviving lethal damage with a shred of hull HP and falling from the sky SHOULD happen, but shouldn't ALWAYS happen. I know for a fact it does not happen. I have PELTED drop ships plummeting from the air with a breach, assault and standard forge gun, countless times. I do this every time i am drop ship hunting, because i don't want it to escape with a shred and pull out at the last minute. Drop ships do not explode mid air, and they should. I've seen a Dropship explode in mid-air when it took Forge Gun fire from several directions at once. There was an explosion, there was nobody jumping out of the Dropship, but the flaming, blackened wreckage still fell from the sky and sat on the ground for several seconds before fading. Destroying the Dropship doesn't completely obliterate the model in mid-air, but it can cause an explosion in mid-air and kill anyone still inside - it also damages or kills anyone too close to the blast if they jump just before it detonates, but not in time to get clear.

Talos Alomar Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 391	Posted - 2012.11.16 03:06:00 - [11] - Quote great thread. +1.
Dr Shortbus Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 11	Posted - 2012.11.16 04:15:00 - [12] - Quote I think both the isk and WP rewards should be relative to the meta level of the vehicle destroyed. taking out advanced tanks and dropships is insanely hard even with team work nevermind prototype. In Eve faction warfare the number of Loyalty Points (basically the same idea as WP) you recieve for killing the enemy is dependent on the qaulity of the enemy ship and the type of fittings they have equipped. I would have no problems seeing this work even at infantry versus infantry levels.
exegr Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.16 05:21:00 - [13] - Quote DJINN Riot wrote: Drop ships do not explode mid air, and they should. They do.. I think hull hp is high hundreds (500-900), so you need a good forge shot in < 10% armor to make it explode. It just doesnt happen too often.. As long as its not flying, 1 or 3 extra kills dont make a difference anyway. Not that i wouldnt welcome the extra sp+isk though :)
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2012.11.16 05:57:00 - [14] - Quote exegr wrote: They do.. I think hull hp is high hundreds (500-900), so you need a good forge shot in < 10% armor to make it explode. It just doesnt happen too often.. As long as its not flying, 1 or 3 extra kills dont make a difference anyway. Not that i wouldnt welcome the extra sp+isk though :) in all my time hunting dropships and being in dropships i have seen zero that explode in mid air unless they collide with another object that isn't a missile. was funny when the pilot was trying out the after burner and banked thinking the burner was done and he rammed right into the enemy MCC exploding on impact. as for the whole tank vs AV. i agree that AV needs work. a whole team can be hunting for the tank and all the tank does is run back to the red zone to rep. i personally made 2 tanks hide inside their base with my missiles. i couldn't destroy them and i died 4-5 times doing it but i managed to at least showed them what they really are cowards. they still managed to get 20+ kills without trying. i don't think heavies even have a chance at that with the ridiculous charge timer and slowly move around while hoping you hit the tank without being slaughtered. i constantly move to avoid the unlimited ranged rocket spam till my lock is released and hope my missiles go in the direction i want them to go, half the time my rockets decide to go right into a mountain or building.
Umbat Boki Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 157	Posted - 2012.11.16 07:10:00 - [15] - Quote Here's my list of ideas regarding AV in random battles: WP (SP/ISK) awarded on unique damage done. What we have now is only two awards: assist and kill. It's now enough to represent an effort spent on killing vehicle. More respawnable supply depots on a map (probably on random maps only). Quite often you spawn AV suite and run around receiving zero WP seeking for a vehicle. Someone suggested to spec more in SMG and use it. However, mercs who have both AR and SMG anyway has both advantage and choice what to use. Of course supply depots need a bit tweaking to prevent it being heal machine. More respawnable AV turrets on a map, especially close to your MCC. We should have protection from vehicles at least somewhere. More ISK/SP for time actively spent in battles and less for kills. I don't think kill-farming benefit gameplay in any way. If you are hunting a vehicles all over a map, spending a lot of time, maybe not killing it, but preventing it from doing damage to your team, you should be rewarded. Probably not as much as people making a lot of kills, but difference should be lower than it is now. More significant ISK/SP difference for win/lose. The goal of a team should be to win, not to farm WP. Killing vehicles is quite important way to win. Militia AV grenade and/or forge gun. More affordable AV types in game, less vehicle in a battlefield. Heavy dropsuite variant with L weapon slot instead of sidearm slow but without grenade slot and nerfed parameters. This suite will allow to have AV and AR. More sidearm variant and especially some middle range. Making AV and sidearm composition more viable to killing infantry with sidearm.
Necrodermis GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention 460	Posted - 2012.11.16 07:31:00 - [16] - Quote Umbat Boki wrote: Here's my list of ideas regarding AV in random battles: WP (SP/ISK) awarded on unique damage done. What we have now is only two awards: assist and kill. It's now enough to represent an effort spent on killing vehicle. More respawnable supply depots on a map (probably on random maps only). Quite often you spawn AV suite and run around receiving zero WP seeking for a vehicle. Someone suggested to spec more in SMG and use it. However, mercs who have both AR and SMG anyway has both advantage and choice what to use. Of course supply depots need a bit tweaking to prevent it being heal machine. More respawnable AV turrets on a map, especially close to your MCC. We should have protection from vehicles at least somewhere. More ISK/SP for time actively spent in battles and less for kills. I don't think kill-farming benefit gameplay in any way. If you are hunting a vehicles all over a map, spending a lot of time, maybe not killing it, but preventing it from doing damage to your team, you should be rewarded. Probably not as much as people making a lot of kills, but difference should be lower than it is now. More significant ISK/SP difference for win/lose. The goal of a team should be to win, not to farm WP. Killing vehicles is quite important way to win. Militia AV grenade and/or forge gun. More affordable AV types in game, less vehicle in a battlefield. Heavy dropsuite variant with L weapon slot instead of sidearm slow but without grenade slot and nerfed parameters. This suite will allow to have AV and AR. More sidearm variant and especially some middle range. Making AV and sidearm composition more viable to killing infantry with sidearm. making AV a sidearm seems kind of odd. i like going back to my old idea of making SL, MD, and rocket launchers into a different category, one that will go into light and heavy weapons. giving an extra set of skills to effect the range of the weapon, area of effect, and the speed of the weapon.
BMSTUBBYx Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.11.16 16:10:00 - [17] - Quote Necrodermis wrote: exegr wrote: They do.. I think hull hp is high hundreds (500-900), so you need a good forge shot in < 10% armor to make it explode. It just doesnt happen too often.. As long as its not flying, 1 or 3 extra kills dont make a difference anyway. Not that i wouldnt welcome the extra sp+isk though :) in all my time hunting dropships and being in dropships i have seen zero that explode in mid air unless they collide with another object that isn't a missile. was funny when the pilot was trying out the after burner and banked thinking the burner was done and he rammed right into the enemy MCC exploding on impact. as for the whole tank vs AV. i agree that AV needs work. a whole team can be hunting for the tank and all the tank does is run back to the red zone to rep. i personally made 2 tanks hide inside their base with my missiles. i couldn't destroy them and i died 4-5 times doing it but i managed to at least showed them what they really are cowards. they still managed to get 20+ kills without trying. i don't think heavies even have a chance at that with the ridiculous charge timer and slowly move around while hoping you hit the tank without being slaughtered. i constantly move to avoid the unlimited ranged rocket spam till my lock is released and hope my missiles go in the direction i want them to go, half the time my rockets decide to go right into a mountain or building. Not to mention the one shot one kill from the scouts in the hills to the fat suit while trying to destroy the sissy la la tank .
Reimus Klinsman BetaMax. 320	Posted - 2012.11.16 16:26:00 - [18] - Quote Heavies should be able to take a hit or two from a tank. If a forge gun didn't force you to use a Heavy, no one would be running a Heavy and forge gun. To be honest, I'd like it if Tanks HP was boosted while their firepower (against infantry) was nerfed. Tanks would be used more as a way to hold ground, not a solopwnmobile.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.16 16:30:00 - [19] - Quote DJINN Riot wrote: I have kinda sat back, and played a Pro-CCP role in the AV vs Vehicle debate until now. Playing the roll of a fit better, or the team up guy, but there are some flaws in the AV vs V design that i would like to address having invested the time, and skill points to better myself. 2) Strength difference A fully loaded Sagaris should beat a fully loaded, and maxed heavy, every day of the week. But there has to be something that can be done. I have max armor, and max shields at this point, running the complex extenders and everything, and can still be 1 hit by a tank, even by a tank gunner(with the light turret). The SP difference between those two is astronomical, as a forge gunner you need to have, Weaponry V, Forge Gun V, Forge gun PROF II, Mechanics V, Shield management V, Electronics, engineering at least to II, Grenadier at least to I, Shield operation to IV, shield upgrades III, armor upgrades III. Where as a tank gunner, running the light weapon needs exclusively, Light turret V, Light turret Proficiency V. As it stands, I have started creating a new character, and wont be running forge gun next reset. I will be speccing rail tank, because at least they can take 1 hit, and keep shooting, as it stands, the heavy dropsuit does not cut it, and i have seen no response by CCP that something is not working as intended or will be fixed. Point 2 - Yes a gunner doesnt need any skills at all to use the small turret seats But the driver needs Vehicle LVL5, Caldari HAV lvl3, Small missiles lvl5, Small missiles prof lvl1 that is so he can have the 1st set of proto small missiles on it Also include support skills so it doesnt die in one hit, Mechanics lvl5, Engineering lvl5, Electronics lvl5, Shield management lvl5, Shield upgrades lvl5, Shield adaptation lvl1-3 also skills for large turrets so large turrets lvl 3 for example but proto requires lvl5 prof lvl1 at least Ive prob missed out a few skills that i am also invested in for my HAV but SP wise its 4.7mil at least and its still going up and that is just for the driver so the HAV can be strong enough to take a few hits and also put on decent guns for his gunners So while you think that the gunner has it so easy your wrong because the one with the points is the driver and he has alot more invested than you in SP and ISK
DJINN Riot 63	Posted - 2012.11.16 23:45:00 - [20] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: DJINN Riot wrote: I have kinda sat back, and played a Pro-CCP role in the AV vs Vehicle debate until now. Playing the roll of a fit better, or the team up guy, but there are some flaws in the AV vs V design that i would like to address having invested the time, and skill points to better myself. 2) Strength difference A fully loaded Sagaris should beat a fully loaded, and maxed heavy, every day of the week. But there has to be something that can be done. I have max armor, and max shields at this point, running the complex extenders and everything, and can still be 1 hit by a tank, even by a tank gunner(with the light turret). The SP difference between those two is astronomical, as a forge gunner you need to have, Weaponry V, Forge Gun V, Forge gun PROF II, Mechanics V, Shield management V, Electronics, engineering at least to II, Grenadier at least to I, Shield operation to IV, shield upgrades III, armor upgrades III. Where as a tank gunner, running the light weapon needs exclusively, Light turret V, Light turret Proficiency V. As it stands, I have started creating a new character, and wont be running forge gun next reset. I will be speccing rail tank, because at least they can take 1 hit, and keep shooting, as it stands, the heavy dropsuit does not cut it, and i have seen no response by CCP that something is not working as intended or will be fixed. Point 2 - Yes a gunner doesnt need any skills at all to use the small turret seats But the driver needs Vehicle LVL5, Caldari HAV lvl3, Small missiles lvl5, Small missiles prof lvl1 that is so he can have the 1st set of proto small missiles on it Also include support skills so it doesnt die in one hit, Mechanics lvl5, Engineering lvl5, Electronics lvl5, Shield management lvl5, Shield upgrades lvl5, Shield adaptation lvl1-3 also skills for large turrets so large turrets lvl 3 for example but proto requires lvl5 prof lvl1 at least Ive prob missed out a few skills that i am also invested in for my HAV but SP wise its 4.7mil at least and its still going up and that is just for the driver so the HAV can be strong enough to take a few hits and also put on decent guns for his gunners So while you think that the gunner has it so easy your wrong because the one with the points is the driver and he has alot more invested than you in SP and ISK But the 10 skill point gunner( missile opperation V, missile prof V) can still 1 shot my 5m sp invested forge gunner. And there are two of them on a tank, not to even dig into the large missile turret....

The Polish Hammer Doomheim 373	Posted - 2012.11.17 01:09:00 - [21] - Quote So would you favor more hitpoints all together on the heavy suits or reduced slash damage?
R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.17 14:44:00 - [22] - Quote I'm not sure if buffing the heavy is a good fix. It migh trade one source of abuse for another potential source. All in all, AV is an incredibly tough path. I have been messing around with remote explosives to see if I can stick them to a tank, but I can't get close. Maybe tanks should be a little slower? The AV grenade is pretty handy. I destroyed a couple LVs already, as opposed to the multiple swarms it usually takes. My big beef is, dropships. I have wasted almost 40 load outs configured with swarms, trying to shoot down a dropship. My highlight? Two of my team members already damaged one and I "finished" it off. All the crew safely bailed and the ship fell to the ground and burned out. I got nothing. No kills, no assists, no vehicle destroyed. Nothing. I ate 7 Myron missles that match for nothing, and two guys were sitting pretty with a 26/0 and 29/1. Not cool. I make 100k ISK a match. I could buy a top tier dropship every 5 matches. They should be easier to shoot down. I do believe swarms should be secondary. Every other shooter has launchers as secondary weapons. This is a good convention for a reason.


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