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Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.11.11 19:38:00 - [1] - Quote So I have been sniping since the 2nd Build and every now and then I make one of these threads. Here are my thoughts: Red Zone Snipers: There seems to be a lot of complaints on snipers who stand in their spawn trying to get kills without taking any real risk by using militia gear. Changing sniper mechanics or nerfing snipers across the board will not fix this. The issue is the red zone itself. Fix that and you solve the first half of this problem. The second half (militia gear) is an easy fix: Nerf the militia and maybe the standard snipers. Also you can increase the cost of snipers. Snipers do not die a lot, so make their deaths hurt financially. Honestly the problem of people using militia snipers is not as much as an issue imo as the game moves forward. As people get better suits and fittings the militia and standard snipers will do inadequate damage to be effective in most matches. EDIT: THis thread suggests a good way to fix red line sniping imo. https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=389672#post389672 The Role of Snipers: This is huge. At the moment, there seems to be a great deal of frustration among players over snipers who stay far away from the objective and one shot people off without really putting themselves in harms way (ie within range of an assault rifle). As I stated above, nerfing snipers will not fix this. This is a much bigger issue and to address it you must ask GÇ£What is the role of a sniper?GÇ¥ In my opinion there are only a couple viable roles for snipers. The first of which is the traditional role, staying far away, hitting people from a distance. The other option is the GÇÿaggressiveGÇÖ sniper. This style of gameplay is much more skill intensive typically and involves getting close to objectives sniping people from mid or even close range. At the moment almost every sniper mechanic in the game caters to the traditional role. Having to crouch to eliminate scope sway, the random reticle location upon initially aiming down scope, the damage of snipers, and the low HP on scout suits all discourage snipers from getting within range of enemies. The result is having a majority of players opting for this style of gameplay. I believe it is a legitimate gameplay style with adequate counters, but if players want to change this then you have to change the mechanics to encourage an aggressive role. Yes you can play aggressively atm by equipping a type II assault suit fitting a SMG as backup and go to town, but this fit has serious drawbacks and is far from a true aggressive sniper role and most people will not go this route. If snipers are nerfed by adding more scope sway (while crouched or in between shots), adding bullet drop and travel time for all snipers will not discourage people from sniping on hills, instead it will further encourage it. As a rule of thumb, the weaker sniper rifles are made, the more cautious snipers will be. CCP needs to look at what they want the role of snipers is in DUST to be and change the mechanics accordingly. As I said I am satisfied with the current mechanics that cater to the traditional role. Aggressive sniping is doable atm but I donGÇÖt think it is as effective given the current mechanics. Suggested Fixes: Blue shield flashes need to stop NAO. Fix hit detection, particularly on snipers on mountains. Anyone familiar with sniping in this build knows what I am talking about. Change sniper recoil so that it doesnGÇÖt reset to the exact same position after every shot, requiring snipers to get the reticle on target again before shooting. Do this instead of re-implementing scope sway between shots, which was annoying and would over-nerf snipers. Increase headshot damage and decrease body shot damage. These two fixes will emphasize the importance of snipers hitting headshots rather than just spamming and getting body shots until someone dies. In other words it rewards skilled snipers and hurts the bad ones. The Experimental Sniper: Give us a sniper like the experimental rifle, which has bullet drop and travel time, but do not make all snipers have it. Obviously it is bugged, with shots occasionally landing WAY off target, but the experimental rifle is fun and a rifle like that should be in the game. It takes more skill to use so I would imagine it doing slightly more damage. A minmatar projectile rifle would be perfect. It would add a nice choice for snipers who would be able to choose between 2 different styles of snipers. HOWEVER.... I do not think this style of sniper should replace the current snipers entirely. This is important. Any time you have bullet drop and travel time with a sniper rifle, you are putting a lot of guesswork into sniping. If someone is moving, jumping or doing anything other than running in a straight line or standing still, you are relying on luck, to a certain extent, to hit your target. This will drastically reduce the effectiveness of any sniper by eliminating their ability to consistently hit targets. As a result, the sniper role on organized teams will be nerfed to the point of it being almost ineffective. Teams would rather have another infantry player rather than a sniper who cannot be relied upon to consistently hit targets. This would be a crime to some corps' best snipers. Snipers should take skill. It should be a role that takes time to skill into before it is truly effective, much like tanks and heavies. Good snipers with good SP should have the tools they need to be an asset to their teams, while bad snipers should pose no real threat to the enemy, apart from a kill here and there. At the moment I think snipers are balanced for the most part. They donGÇÖt need a nerf, they need a couple tweaks such as the ones I suggested. CCP has a habit of over nerfing things when the implement a nerf. I would hate to see this happen to snipers when the nerf is not necessary in the first place.
Cortez The Killer Immobile Infantry 190	Posted - 2012.11.11 21:32:00 - [2] - Quote +1 Likey likey. It will be interesting to see these mysterious changes to bullet mechanics. Something tells me that these changes will fix most of the actual problems with sniping. The only head scratcher of the post was on the red zones. There are many ways to rout snipers out of a red zone. First and foremost, there is no place a sniper can take a shot without the risk of being shot back. This could be in the form of countersnipers, dropships, LAVs, HAVs, and so on. Maybe if it were made so that damage cannot be dealt in or out of a redzone, everyone would be happy.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.11 21:37:00 - [3] - Quote From what I've heard, the experimental sniper is there so CCP can test the new mechanics. It's basically the blueprint from which the new sniper mechanics are supposed to be designed.
Vincam Velmoriar Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 103	Posted - 2012.11.11 21:46:00 - [4] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: From what I've heard, the experimental sniper is there so CCP can test the new mechanics. It's basically the blueprint from which the new sniper mechanics are supposed to be designed. Yup. It's coming. I'm fine with it. It's pretty fun to use. I do think, however, that the damage could be buffed a little, but that's minor. I also think we need the ability to switch out scopes for different ranges. That would be fun. And the redzone issues will hopefully be somewhat resolved if/when the maps are expanded, and the redzone is a staging area too far away from the hotzones to sit back and shoot from (kinda like planetside 2).
Death On Contact Doomheim 56	Posted - 2012.11.12 00:11:00 - [5] - Quote The primary mission of a Scout Sniper is to support combat operations by delivering precise long-range fire on selected targets from concealed positions. By this, the sniper creates casualties among enemy troops, slows enemy movement, frightens enemy soldiers, lowers morale, and adds confusion to their operations. The secondary mission of the sniper is collecting and reporting battlefield information. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Sniper Death On Contact.
Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.11.12 01:08:00 - [6] - Quote Edited for proposed fix for red line snipers
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.11.13 13:19:00 - [7] - Quote more feedback on this! CCP hope u readin the good posts
Bhor Derri Legion of Eden 95	Posted - 2012.11.13 15:27:00 - [8] - Quote Well umm... Though there are good bits in this thread it is mostly a joke 'snipers staying away from ARs range' rofl yeah let's go mlg pro no scope shotgun with snipers right mate?
Free Beers Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 1041	Posted - 2012.11.13 18:40:00 - [9] - Quote I agree redline is an issue and needs to be fixed. I snipe on my alt and its way to easy. There is almost no skill invovled what-so-ever for 90% of shots made in dust. This is where the problem is. I do agree that isk is to easy for a decent sniper to build is so they can always use top tier stuff. I see lots of proto snipers these days in matches compared to other class of weapons. I disagree with your idea of nerfing snipers won't fix this and I call bias on it. CCP intends to make sniping more player skill intensive and needs to be. -changing the settle point for a second shot is needed. Having it settle makes it super easy to double tap someone -longer distance shots need less damage or a trade off or distance/damage i.e. optimal/falloff -bullet drop should be added for all snipers -windage should be added too. So you are bascially adding 2 varibles for the sniper to have to deal with when shooting and thats fair. If your scope gives you distance, wind speed, and direction then you should be able hit your target if you skill to. Most important is that snipers wont be useful on all maps because of envoirnmental effects which is good to. CCP doesn't intend for every map to be good for every type of vehicle/weapon/suit.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.11.13 19:20:00 - [10] - Quote Travel time plus no auto return would be enough. Drop isn't neccesary and would look cheesy to me.

Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.13 20:44:00 - [11] - Quote Death On Contact wrote: The primary mission of a Scout Sn You keep posting this stuff. Nobody cares about the American army. We're not playing a wikipedia page. It's a video game. Give it a rest.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.13 20:55:00 - [12] - Quote Death On Contact wrote: The primary mission of a Scout Sniper is to support combat operations by delivering precise long-range fire on selected targets from concealed positions. By this, the sniper creates casualties among enemy troops, slows enemy movement, frightens enemy soldiers, lowers morale, and adds confusion to their operations. The secondary mission of the sniper is collecting and reporting battlefield information. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Sniper Death On Contact. In DUST, this is what a good sniper does anyway. Not sure of the relevance of this post. Y U NO EXPLAIN?
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.13 20:56:00 - [13] - Quote Eternal Technique wrote: Red Zone Snipers: I actually think that bullet travel time would solve this issue in a big way. One of the nice side-effects of travel time for rounds is that, the further away you are, the harder it is to hit. By making bullet travel time a significant thing that needs to be accounted for, CCP will be encouraging snipers to get closer to the fighting in order to mitigate the effect travel time will have on their accuracy. Quote: The Role of Snipers: HP of scout suits isn't an issue as most snipers are sensible enough not to use scout suits. But yeah, otherwise there's no reason for snipers to get in closer to the fighting. Personally, though, I don't agree with your assessment of the impact travel time will add. Bullet travel time will encourage people to get closer. More scope sway will also encourage people to get closer, as the sway is less a factor when the target is closer and, thus, larger. Something I've always been quite fond of is adding tracers to sniper rifle rounds, the idea being that when you fire, you broadcast your location. The whole point is to make sniping more dangerous by making it impossible to do while staying unobserved. A nice benefit of adding tracers is that lone sniping, where it's just you up a hill someplace, becomes much more dangerous. But, if you're sniping near allies and staying with your team for protection, then you aren't really affected much at all. Tracers would therefore become a good way of encouraging snipers to not snipe solo off in the boonies someplace, but rather to stay near allies for protection. Quote: Blue shield flashes need to stop NAO. Fix hit detection, particularly on snipers on mountains. Anyone familiar with sniping in this build knows what I am talking about. I'm done with Dust until they fix this. I can't accept a FPS game where you can't reliably do damage to the people you're shooting. So yeah, it needs to be fixed. Top ***** priority. Quote: Change sniper recoil so that it doesnGÇÖt reset to the exact same position after every shot, requiring snipers to get the reticle on target again before shooting. Do this instead of re-implementing scope sway between shots Your idea here could work. I kind of like the sound of it. Quote:** The Experimental Sniper: Nah, every rifle should work like it does. Sniping currently takes essentially no skill. It's the most simplistic weapon in the game. Either every sniper rifle needs to work with bullet drop and round travel time, or none do. There should be no sniper rifles where you can just sit at the red line and plink people from 600+ m away without a worry, because your rounds hit instantly and there's no drop. Sniper rifles, and weapons in general, should require skill to use well. I also disagree that it adds too much guesswork. As it happens, you get a range readout on targets you aim at. Experienced snipers will no doubt gain a feel for how they need to compensate to hit their targets. It adds a degree of uncertainty to the whole operation, sure, but that's the price you pay for using a gun you can hit people across the map with (in theory).
R'ahz Lupo Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 25	Posted - 2012.11.15 16:23:00 - [14] - Quote Okay. So, I have been seeing a lot of threads on sniping. A lot of negative posts, a lot of whining - some with merit, some not. I figured I'd through in my two cents, and this seems to be an appropriate thread because it covers everything to do with sniping. First off, my experience. I'll give you guys a run down of my experiences so you can at least judge my opinions knowing my background. I am strictly a console gamer. I play CoD and Battlefield, and I'm very good. At my high point in CoD, I managed to break into the best 1000 of the leaderboards of 5 mill. When I used a sniper class in CoD, I was close to mid range. I was a semi proficient quick scoper, and radar reader( using the mini map to ADS a corner and tap someone is they stroll around it.). I abhor camping and would counter snipe campers. In Battlefield, I was a mid range sniper that preformed precision shots to cover my squad. Squad rushes objective, I drop off on route and cover windows or vantage points. Long distance shots were only used to counter campers or occasionally cover an objectiv. Battlefield incorporates bullet drop. So. Dust. A lot of people complain about getting killed in a single shot. They say sniping is cheap and easy. The only times I have ever dealt out a single shot kill is on a perfect headshot. That's obvious. The only time I get reliable head shots is when somebody is standing completely still, i.e., enemy sniper. The only time I ever get one shoted is when I'm trying to snipe a target or I'm aiming a swarm. Any other time, it takes 2+ shots. I very rarely get killed by a sniper. When I notice my shield drop and half my armour gone from a single mysterious shot, I (get ready!) MOVE. M.OOOO.VE. The reason I stress this, is because I am constantly surprised by the number of people who let me take my second shot. It boggles my mind. Easy? I am told that mouse/kb is the way to go. Point and click death. I don't begrudge anyone for using a system they are used to, but if it is that much easier we should have a little more balance. Personally, I find the ADS sensitivity so high, that precision shooting takes way longer than I could ever possibly appreciate. I could line up a shot AND account for bullet drop with range finder, AND take my shot in Battlefield long before I could get that jerky Dust reticle on target. No one sensible would ask m/kb players to switch and vice versa, but we should be on equal ground. What's the deal with that blue shimmer too? My reticle is red - I take the shot. No hit, just a blue shimmer. WTF!? The mile away issue. People complain a lot about the selfish lone wolves who camp out a mile from the battlefield and just snipe. First off, staying stationary for such long periods will leave you vulnerable to counter sniping. Second, you can't actually do anything else with a sniper rifle because of the mechanics. The ADS auto sway negates any attempt at close range quick scoping. The fact you have to crouch to steady, destroys your mobility and prevents from using cover. Why can't you lean on a railing or crate to steady a shot? Also, the mid range game is dominated by the AR. Trust me. If you are at mid range and see a target, what do you do? Stop moving, crouch, steady sway, take your shot? The only way you'll drop your mark is with a headshot. Chances are, you'll miss due to him having mobility. A safe shot would be center mass, but you need 2 of those to kill. If you get one, chances are, you'll be dead before you take the next shot. Due to the ion of the sniper, you're going to suffer greatly from the sway caused by getting shot at. Throw in the long range proto ARs and the only way to snipe safely is from a mile away. Bullet drop? Yes. I am in favor of it, but only if it is implemented on all weapons. I find the versatility of snipers in this game severely lacking, but adding bullet drop to snipers only, will just pigeon hole them even more. Thoughts, people? Also, try not to flame me too bad. This forum lags like nothing I have ever seen in my life and it was an extreme test of patience to type this much :P Seriously, wtf
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.15 18:57:00 - [15] - Quote R'ahz Lupo wrote: The only times I have ever dealt out a single shot kill is on a perfect headshot. That's obvious. The only time I get reliable head shots is when somebody is standing completely still, i.e., enemy sniper. The only time I ever get one shoted is when I'm trying to snipe a target or I'm aiming a swarm. Any other time, it takes 2+ shots. I very rarely get killed by a sniper. When I notice my shield drop and half my armour gone from a single mysterious shot, I (get ready!) MOVE. M.OOOO.VE. The reason I stress this, is because I am constantly surprised by the number of people who let me take my second shot. It boggles my mind. A Scout suit can, without any mods or skills to buff shields or armour, die to a single Sniper Rifle bodyshot. Even against a Militia Sniper Rifle if it has a few skills or a damage mod behind it. The Sniper Starter Fit has a Damage Mod on it. With a few skills on the Scout suit, it becomes a two-shot again, but early on, Scouts are a VERY risky option. Quote: The mile away issue. People complain a lot about the selfish lone wolves who camp out a mile from the battlefield and just snipe. First off, staying stationary for such long periods will leave you vulnerable to counter sniping. Second, you can't actually do anything else with a sniper rifle because of the mechanics. The ADS auto sway negates any attempt at close range quick scoping. The fact you have to crouch to steady, destroys your mobility and prevents from using cover. Why can't you lean on a railing or crate to steady a shot? Also, the mid range game is dominated by the AR. Trust me. If you are at mid range and see a target, what do you do? Stop moving, crouch, steady sway, take your shot? The only way you'll drop your mark is with a headshot. Chances are, you'll miss due to him having mobility. A safe shot would be center mass, but you need 2 of those to kill. If you get one, chances are, you'll be dead before you take the next shot. Due to the ion of the sniper, you're going to suffer greatly from the sway caused by getting shot at. Throw in the long range proto ARs and the only way to snipe safely is from a mile away. Close-range SMG or Scrambler Pistol. Long range use sniper for counter-sniping duty. Or at mid-range, ONE Sniper shot, then cover, then pull your sidearm and finish the job. Quote: Bullet drop? Yes. I am in favor of it, but only if it is implemented on all weapons. I find the versatility of snipers in this game severely lacking, but adding bullet drop to snipers only, will just pigeon hole them even more. Thoughts, people? Pigeon-holing Sniper Rifles is a GOOD idea though. They shouldn't be a weapon that everyone just picks up and uses for long-distance point-and-click kills. The majority of drawbacks are due to BUGS rather than mechanics limiting the weapon.
Khal V'Rani Nephilim Initiative 90	Posted - 2012.11.16 09:20:00 - [16] - Quote There are some really good ideas in here, good discussion going on. I'll try not to ruin it. I do agree that if bullet drop is added to sniper rifles than it needs to be added to all. Or increase the size of the maps to make the 2500m/s (iirc) description have a reason for bullet drop. The size of the maps now are nothing as far as that speed is concerned. Draw distance changed perhaps as has been mentioned/blamed elsewhere? Adding elevation and a bit 'o Kentucky windage adjustments would limit the number of snipers commonly found I think. To be effective one wouldn't be able to just pick up a long rifle and get kills with impunity as most seem to say. You would actually need to spec the applicable skills to make it worthwhile and have a decent "feel" for the weapon. Hit detection needs to be fixed. I haven't read any questions or doubts about that. The shimmering thing is bad for morale... The only real argument/question I have is the tracer thing. I've read it in other posts and I am wondering where everyone is at with this. Yes this a video game, but one of the things about being a sniper is the concealed location or at distance ability that comes with it. In an ideal world it would be both. To mandate that snipers MUST fire tracers takes the suprise element away from a sniper and degrades their effectiveness on the field. Why have snipers at all at that point? So I guess the question I have is, if tracers become mandatory would it be every round, every other, the last round of every mag? I personally think tracers are a bad idea unless implemented across the board somehow. Here's an idea, what if the sniper rifles at level 1 didn't have the distance that a level 5 did? It would force the burgeoning sniper to act closer to the team on the field and slowly earn their way to shooting across the maps of current size. Earning their keep or right so to speak? Militia gear wouldn't be able to reach across the map. If you want to do that then you need to invest in better gear. To use THAT gear you need to spend isk. To get the required isk blah blah blah.... Thoughts? @ Death on Contact - I read you. Kilo Victor out.
BMSTUBBYx Doomheim 83	Posted - 2012.11.16 15:46:00 - [17] - Quote More love needs to be thrown towards the Scout side of things IMO. Is this a sniper scout roll or scout sniper roll? The name says scout but where are my scout tools? Binos for laser targeting targets for starters. Let them work hand in hand with turrets and swarm launchers. Scouts should also have some kind of air or ground support option tree to skill into. Nerf, Buff, bullet drop, scope sway, blah blah blah! Do you want the scout class to not be so easy, worthless and hated? Would you like to see scouts being more useful and part of the team? Then give us something better to do than just one shot one kill from the hill.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.11.16 16:04:00 - [18] - Quote Scouting doesn't have anything to do with sniping. Maybe in real life they're related, but in Dust they're not at all intertwined. It doesn't really have anything to do with the balance of sniping, at any rate. R'ahz Lupo wrote: When I notice my shield drop and half my armour gone from a single mysterious shot, I (get ready!) MOVE. M.OOOO.VE. The reason I stress this, is because I am constantly surprised by the number of people who let me take my second shot. It boggles my mind. With tactical sniper rifles you can land your second shot fast enough that there's less than a second delay between the hits landing. With some of the sniper rifles, if you aren't already moving you're probably going to get hit twice. There being fairly minimal feedback to indicate you've been severely damaged by a shot only adds to the problem. Quote: What's the deal with that blue shimmer too? My reticle is red - I take the shot. No hit, just a blue shimmer. WTF!? It's a flaw in the game. Hit detection has been broken for a long time. Quote: The ADS auto sway negates any attempt at close range quick scoping. I don't agree. You're going to be in trouble if you try to solo a guy using an AR or something, but you can snipe pretty easily from standing and at closer ranges if you just make sure that you have allies in front of you to distract your targets. Quote: Bullet drop? Yes. I am in favor of it, but only if it is implemented on all weapons. I find the versatility of snipers in this game severely lacking, but adding bullet drop to snipers only, will just pigeon hole them even more. Thoughts, people? I don't think "pigeonhole" is the word you're looking for. It doesn't really make sense to say it'd pigeonhole them more. How would it do that? I mean, you stated that there's only one way to play as a sniper. You can't get much more pigeonholed than that.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.16 16:04:00 - [19] - Quote BMSTUBBYx wrote: More love needs to be thrown towards the Scout side of things IMO. Is this a sniper scout roll or scout sniper roll? The name says scout but where are my scout tools? Binos for laser targeting targets for starters. Let them work hand in hand with turrets and swarm launchers. Scouts should also have some kind of air or ground support option tree to skill into. Nerf, Buff, bullet drop, scope sway, blah blah blah! Do you want the scout class to not be so easy, worthless and hated? Would you like to see scouts being more useful and part of the team? Then give us something better to do than just one shot one kill from the hill. You might enjoy this thread. It's been going since the E3 build, so a lot of the earlier posts will be out of date by now, but there's a few Codex build fittings there. Spoiler: Most of them aren't for Snipers.


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