DUST Search - [Suggestion/Request] Option to delegate main gun of HAVs

Nova Knife wrote:

So sneaky, Mobius!

We've talked about this on IRC.

Under no circumstances should the driver of an HAV be separated from the gun. It would be a MASSIVE buff to tanks, and almost completely negate the ability to flank them.

Currently, if a driver is going along a path, he generally needs to keep his main turret in front of him within a certain arc, so he can see where he's going. This means attacking it from the sides or rear is relatively 'safe' from reprisal from the main turret.

If the driver is no longer controlling this gun, these blind spots will no longer exist. a driver can flee attack or position themselves freely, or just merrily drive along the perimeter of the map while his new gunner buddy blasts everyone.

I Strongly oppose this.

The Black Jackal wrote:

1) Limit the Driver's perspective to the Front Gun View.

2) Move Front Gun and place above the current position and controlled by another player.

3) Detach Primary gun from Control of the Driver permanently.

Every other vehicle requires a team to operate it to full capacity. Fair enough, the HAV needs 2 more to be at it's peak, it is still extremely effective with just the 'Tank Commander' in it. Driver should drive, gunners should gun.

This isn't about nerfing Tanks... far from it, as Nova pointed out, it would actually increase their combat effectiveness. However it's about removing the ability to solo in a Tank and completely anhilate opposing infantry, tanks, and even dropships if they fly too low (granted they're silly if the come down near a tank).

If the focus of the game is on working as a team... then a Team should be required to operate the largest, most deadly thing on the ground in DUST 514.

ALSO!!!!! and I CANNOT stress this enough...

Give the LAV another Passenger seat! With current 4 man Squads, the Dropship is the ONLY vehicle capable of carrying a full Squad. Even then, they're designed to have 3 'Crew' and 4 Passengers (ie another Squad). Tanks are 3 man... (if the above is implemented they'll be 4, but give LAVs another Passenger seat. Centre position, right behind the 2 front seats.

Sincerely. The Black Jackal.

PS: I don't drive tanks, yet I posted this suggestion! I prefer LAVs.

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Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.11.11 07:13:00 - [1] - Quote As everyone likes to say, this game is about giving options to the player, and not forcing certain types of gameplay. With that in mind, I propose that the driver be able to press the Square button to switch turrets with the front gunner, thereby allowing them to focus on driving and killing infantry to the front while leaving the main turret free to engage all around the vehicle. That way people that want to operate the tank by themselves can do so, while those that wish to cooperate with a secondary gunner can do so as well. Both sides get what they want and no one gets stuck with something they don't like.
Kharga Lum Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 33	Posted - 2012.11.11 08:15:00 - [2] - Quote Having the drivers perspective limited to the the front gun, while challenging to drive, would add an element of realism.
Nova Knife Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 789	Posted - 2012.11.11 10:56:00 - [3] - Quote So sneaky, Mobius! We've talked about this on IRC. Under no circumstances should the driver of an HAV be separated from the gun. It would be a MASSIVE buff to tanks, and almost completely negate the ability to flank them. Currently, if a driver is going along a path, he generally needs to keep his main turret in front of him within a certain arc, so he can see where he's going. This means attacking it from the sides or rear is relatively 'safe' from reprisal from the main turret. If the driver is no longer controlling this gun, these blind spots will no longer exist. a driver can flee attack or position themselves freely, or just merrily drive along the perimeter of the map while his new gunner buddy blasts everyone. I Strongly oppose this.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 302	Posted - 2012.11.11 11:37:00 - [4] - Quote 1) Limit the Driver's perspective to the Front Gun View. 2) Move Front Gun and place above the current position and controlled by another player. 3) Detach Primary gun from Control of the Driver permanently. Every other vehicle requires a team to operate it to full capacity. Fair enough, the HAV needs 2 more to be at it's peak, it is still extremely effective with just the 'Tank Commander' in it. Driver should drive, gunners should gun. This isn't about nerfing Tanks... far from it, as Nova pointed out, it would actually increase their combat effectiveness. However it's about removing the ability to solo in a Tank and completely anhilate opposing infantry, tanks, and even dropships if they fly too low (granted they're silly if the come down near a tank). If the focus of the game is on working as a team... then a Team should be required to operate the largest, most deadly thing on the ground in DUST 514. ALSO!!!!! and I CANNOT stress this enough... Give the LAV another Passenger seat! With current 4 man Squads, the Dropship is the ONLY vehicle capable of carrying a full Squad. Even then, they're designed to have 3 'Crew' and 4 Passengers (ie another Squad). Tanks are 3 man... (if the above is implemented they'll be 4, but give LAVs another Passenger seat. Centre position, right behind the 2 front seats. Sincerely. The Black Jackal. PS: I don't drive tanks, yet I posted this suggestion! I prefer LAVs.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.11.11 14:23:00 - [5] - Quote Nova Knife wrote: So sneaky, Mobius! We've talked about this on IRC. Under no circumstances should the driver of an HAV be separated from the gun. It would be a MASSIVE buff to tanks, and almost completely negate the ability to flank them. Currently, if a driver is going along a path, he generally needs to keep his main turret in front of him within a certain arc, so he can see where he's going. This means attacking it from the sides or rear is relatively 'safe' from reprisal from the main turret. If the driver is no longer controlling this gun, these blind spots will no longer exist. a driver can flee attack or position themselves freely, or just merrily drive along the perimeter of the map while his new gunner buddy blasts everyone. I Strongly oppose this. That's pretty much the definition of a tank, Nova. It shouldn't have silly blind spots thanks to the driver having to do all things at once. And don't forget that you yourself have been the one to mention vehicle capacitors many times now. If the driver of an HAV is forced to operate all those things at once with no recourse, you're going to see a rapid decline in the use of these vehicles, and may find yourself without one when you really need one because no one wants to risk that kind of investment. Like it or not, the pricing and capability of current HAVs is lackluster at best. The few people still whining about them being overpowered are mostly doing so because of missile launchers, which we all agree are in desperate need of a rebalance, and the fact that current map design offers a few positions on at least 2 of the maps that offer full dominance of the field, especially the southwest and southeast mountain positions of Manus Peak. As the HAVs stand right now, were missiles to be rebalanced, such an ability to delegate the gun would make them balanced against AV in their current state. The primary thing I'm looking for in this game is to try and have tanks that operate like tanks, and not like a giant dropsuit. If you want to operate a tank that way, fine. More power to you. But I want the option to be able to cooperate with another player, because cooperating with other players is pretty much the central aspect of this entire game. The Black Jackal wrote: 1) Limit the Driver's perspective to the Front Gun View. 2) Move Front Gun and place above the current position and controlled by another player. 3) Detach Primary gun from Control of the Driver permanently. Every other vehicle requires a team to operate it to full capacity. Fair enough, the HAV needs 2 more to be at it's peak, it is still extremely effective with just the 'Tank Commander' in it. Driver should drive, gunners should gun. This isn't about nerfing Tanks... far from it, as Nova pointed out, it would actually increase their combat effectiveness. However it's about removing the ability to solo in a Tank and completely anhilate opposing infantry, tanks, and even dropships if they fly too low (granted they're silly if the come down near a tank). If the focus of the game is on working as a team... then a Team should be required to operate the largest, most deadly thing on the ground in DUST 514. ALSO!!!!! and I CANNOT stress this enough... Give the LAV another Passenger seat! With current 4 man Squads, the Dropship is the ONLY vehicle capable of carrying a full Squad. Even then, they're designed to have 3 'Crew' and 4 Passengers (ie another Squad). Tanks are 3 man... (if the above is implemented they'll be 4, but give LAVs another Passenger seat. Centre position, right behind the 2 front seats. Sincerely. The Black Jackal. PS: I don't drive tanks, yet I posted this suggestion! I prefer LAVs. This solution comes back up against the fact that one-man tanks have been part of FPS gaming for far too long, and those who've used them are too woefully entrenched in that "tradition" to allow it to be ignored. What I'm trying to propose is an option that balances the field between both sides. I see far too many people on these forums laying out every suggestion as an ultimatum, "do it this way or the game dies", and I'm just tired of it.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.11 15:04:00 - [6] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: As everyone likes to say, this game is about giving options to the player, and not forcing certain types of gameplay. With that in mind, I propose that the driver be able to press the Square button to switch turrets with the front gunner, thereby allowing them to focus on driving and killing infantry to the front while leaving the main turret free to engage all around the vehicle. That way people that want to operate the tank by themselves can do so, while those that wish to cooperate with a secondary gunner can do so as well. Both sides get what they want and no one gets stuck with something they don't like. Nope are you trying to get me killed? Whacking me into the front turret means i cant watch all around me except the front which makes it even worse for reversing and identifying potential threats Id rarther be able to just drive if i could and leave the main gun for someone else because firing/activating mods/looking for AV guys/targets while driving is a ******* mess
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.11.11 15:17:00 - [7] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: As everyone likes to say, this game is about giving options to the player, and not forcing certain types of gameplay. With that in mind, I propose that the driver be able to press the Square button to switch turrets with the front gunner, thereby allowing them to focus on driving and killing infantry to the front while leaving the main turret free to engage all around the vehicle. That way people that want to operate the tank by themselves can do so, while those that wish to cooperate with a secondary gunner can do so as well. Both sides get what they want and no one gets stuck with something they don't like. Nope are you trying to get me killed? Whacking me into the front turret means i cant watch all around me except the front which makes it even worse for reversing and identifying potential threats Id rarther be able to just drive if i could and leave the main gun for someone else because firing/activating mods/looking for AV guys/targets while driving is a ******* mess But that's why its an option under the control of the driver that can be switched back and forth at any time.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.11 15:31:00 - [8] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: As everyone likes to say, this game is about giving options to the player, and not forcing certain types of gameplay. With that in mind, I propose that the driver be able to press the Square button to switch turrets with the front gunner, thereby allowing them to focus on driving and killing infantry to the front while leaving the main turret free to engage all around the vehicle. That way people that want to operate the tank by themselves can do so, while those that wish to cooperate with a secondary gunner can do so as well. Both sides get what they want and no one gets stuck with something they don't like. Nope are you trying to get me killed? Whacking me into the front turret means i cant watch all around me except the front which makes it even worse for reversing and identifying potential threats Id rarther be able to just drive if i could and leave the main gun for someone else because firing/activating mods/looking for AV guys/targets while driving is a ******* mess But that's why its an option under the control of the driver that can be switched back and forth at any time. Its a pointless option with more disadvantages than advantages
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.11.11 15:48:00 - [9] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: As everyone likes to say, this game is about giving options to the player, and not forcing certain types of gameplay. With that in mind, I propose that the driver be able to press the Square button to switch turrets with the front gunner, thereby allowing them to focus on driving and killing infantry to the front while leaving the main turret free to engage all around the vehicle. That way people that want to operate the tank by themselves can do so, while those that wish to cooperate with a secondary gunner can do so as well. Both sides get what they want and no one gets stuck with something they don't like. Nope are you trying to get me killed? Whacking me into the front turret means i cant watch all around me except the front which makes it even worse for reversing and identifying potential threats Id rarther be able to just drive if i could and leave the main gun for someone else because firing/activating mods/looking for AV guys/targets while driving is a ******* mess But that's why its an option under the control of the driver that can be switched back and forth at any time. Its a pointless option with more disadvantages than advantages See, that is what I don't understand. I know everyone hates reality being used as a basis for anything because it might be used against their precious "run & gun" mechanics, and I'm not interested in getting into a fight over that subject again. A tank in reality has a separate gunner because it leaves the vehicle free to maneuver as necessary without affecting the gunner's ability to prosecute targets. Also, the current third-person perspective could be adapted to support that turret being the one aimed rather than the main one, still allowing you to drive the HAV in third-person. Possibly limit the perspective to the turning range of that turret, giving the driver a blind spot to the rear even with that viewpoint to mitigate the issue that Nova brought up of eliminating such. That way the driver and gunner would need to cooperate to cover all points of vulnerability.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.11 15:56:00 - [10] - Quote I already have 2 gunners, 1 at the front 1 at the back who can turn it around and have a look so thats not a problem but i do it anyways TBH i would like a HAV which is a squad tank 4 seats 1 driver 3 guns This idea i wouldnt use tbh

Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.11.12 02:32:00 - [11] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: I already have 2 gunners, 1 at the front 1 at the back who can turn it around and have a look so thats not a problem but i do it anyways TBH i would like a HAV which is a squad tank 4 seats 1 driver 3 guns This idea i wouldnt use tbh I've suggested a 4-man tank myself more than once, but the argument is always that the cost of the vehicle means that the driver should be able to get kills with it.
Sytonis Auran Valor Coalition RISE of LEGION 52	Posted - 2012.11.12 02:59:00 - [12] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: 1) Limit the Driver's perspective to the Front Gun View. 2) Move Front Gun and place above the current position and controlled by another player. 3) Detach Primary gun from Control of the Driver permanently. With regards to 1) they would need to fix the bug where LAVs ramming into the front of HAV's kill the gunner. In your scenario it would kill the driver.
The Black Jackal The Southern Legion 302	Posted - 2012.11.12 08:03:00 - [13] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: I already have 2 gunners, 1 at the front 1 at the back who can turn it around and have a look so thats not a problem but i do it anyways TBH i would like a HAV which is a squad tank 4 seats 1 driver 3 guns This idea i wouldnt use tbh I've suggested a 4-man tank myself more than once, but the argument is always that the cost of the vehicle means that the driver should be able to get kills with it. I've seen those arguments... they tend to forget that Dropship pilots ALSO spend juist as much and cannot get kills with them without a team. LAV drivers, though expending lesss ISK, also cannot get kills without team. So why should there be (currently) 1 vehicle that, realistically, shouldn't have a gun operated by the driver.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.12 14:25:00 - [14] - Quote The Black Jackal wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: I already have 2 gunners, 1 at the front 1 at the back who can turn it around and have a look so thats not a problem but i do it anyways TBH i would like a HAV which is a squad tank 4 seats 1 driver 3 guns This idea i wouldnt use tbh I've suggested a 4-man tank myself more than once, but the argument is always that the cost of the vehicle means that the driver should be able to get kills with it. I've seen those arguments... they tend to forget that Dropship pilots ALSO spend juist as much and cannot get kills with them without a team. LAV drivers, though expending lesss ISK, also cannot get kills without team. So why should there be (currently) 1 vehicle that, realistically, shouldn't have a gun operated by the driver. Ive made a few threads about a 4man tank Overall it would be a squad tank Sure the driver is still stumping up for the tank/mods and turrets but overall the tank is stronger, gunners can watch everything and you can just drive and keep the tank alive


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