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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 03:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2cFOx5NCWk&feature=related ^^^^^^ This is how you make the swarm launcher a skill weapon.
New standard variant 4 missiles, heat seeking (fire and forget) 150 damage each at prototype level Flight speed: 100 m/s Flight time: 6s Min arming distance: 100m Splash radius: 0.5m Magazine size: 4
New breach variant 1 missile, guided by wire (not lock) 1.8k damage at prototype level Flight speed: 50 m/s Flight time: 9s Min arming distance: 50m Splash radius: 1.5m Magazine size: 1
New specialist variant 5 missiles, guided by laser (hold lock) 200 damage each at prototype level Flight speed: 150 m/s Flight time: 1.5s Min arming distance: 25m Splash radius: 1.5m Magazine size: 3
New assault variant 3 missiles, unguided 300 damage each at prototype level Flight speed: 100 m/s Flight time: 3s Min arming distance: 15m Splash radius: 3m Magazine size: 2
Operation Skill: 5% speed/level Proficiency Skill: 5% flight time/level
Edit: Oh, knock needs to be toned down to just enough to feel like you were hit, not the current insanity of thrown 100's of meters from militia. |
Eternal Technique
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
281
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 03:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Yes. +1
These launchers were amazing. They took skill (especially against air vehicles, that dude just made it look easy), and once mastered were incredibly effective. This is exactly what needs to be in the game: a launcher that takes skill and is effective against vehicles. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 03:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Swarm launcher variant that fires weak but very very fast swarms. Also have a smaller magazine.
Swarm launcher variant that fires swarms that detonate in the air after a 20 seconds, and do splash damage to any vehicle within the large splash radius. Lower direct damage, and smaller magazine. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 03:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Swarm launcher variant that fires swarms that detonate in the air after a 20 seconds, and do splash damage to any vehicle within the large splash radius. Lower direct damage, and smaller magazine.
You sir, just described autocannons. Those should get their own category. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 03:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Swarm launcher variant that fires swarms that detonate in the air after a 20 seconds, and do splash damage to any vehicle within the large splash radius. Lower direct damage, and smaller magazine.
You sir, just described autocannons. Those should get their own category.
I am not familiar with those, can you tell me more about them? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 03:32:00 -
[6] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Swarm launcher variant that fires swarms that detonate in the air after a 20 seconds, and do splash damage to any vehicle within the large splash radius. Lower direct damage, and smaller magazine.
You sir, just described autocannons. Those should get their own category. I am not familiar with those, can you tell me more about them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocannon
Commonly, people refer to the autocannons loaded with AA shells as "flak cannons" |
Sleepy Zan
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
2048
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 03:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
damn I actually like this idea +1 |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 04:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
The idea isn't bad.
I'd personally be much more open to seeing swarms be a weapon that requires skill to use. Tracking bugs aside, they do offer way too much damage currently for such a small effort investment. Fire + forget weapons = bad.
If swarm mechanics stay as they are, I'd say their damage needs to go way down. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
328
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 06:31:00 -
[9] - Quote
Swarms will always suck until they are skill based.
Impossible to balance faceroll easy swarms against the skills of dropship pilots as they stand. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
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Posted - 2012.11.11 15:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
I like the look of those variants, as long as fire-and-forget swarms are kept as well.
That's coming from someone who uses HAVs frequently, by the way, and as someone looking forward to more aerial vehicles in the future. The only other issue I can see is that I believe we've had confirmation that countermeasures will be coming at this point, which would of course all be useless against remote-guided weapons. You also can't discount the fact that we'll drown in a sea of whiners if fire-and-forget swarms are removed an everyone has to lead their targets. As a veteran of the MechWarrior series, that's no issue for me, but I think we all know that many of our community would be woefully unprepared to handle such a change. |
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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 16:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:I like the look of those variants, as long as fire-and-forget swarms are kept as well.
That's coming from someone who uses HAVs frequently, by the way, and as someone looking forward to more aerial vehicles in the future. The only other issue I can see is that I believe we've had confirmation that countermeasures will be coming at this point, which would of course all be useless against remote-guided weapons. You also can't discount the fact that we'll drown in a sea of whiners if fire-and-forget swarms are removed an everyone has to lead their targets. As a veteran of the MechWarrior series, that's no issue for me, but I think we all know that many of our community would be woefully unprepared to handle such a change.
Fire and forget are removed for laser guided. This adds the smallest amount of skill to the weapon. Note that those variants are very fast, but have the shortest range. A true fire and forget variant would probably look like this:
New Standard Swarm Launcher 4 missiles, heat seeking (fire and forget) 150 damage each at prototype level Flight speed: 100 m/s Flight time: 6s Min arming distance: 100m Splash radius: 1.5m Magazine size: 4
I edited it into the stats in the OP. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 17:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Breach damage needs to go down. All AV damage needs to go down in my opinion as a balance for vehicle hp, I think the 600-1000 damage range for the other variants is a lot better than what we have now. Breach damage isn't a concern by itself, but things should be balanced around assuming team play (so things aren't useless in organized games), so having that wildly strong hit would turn out to be an insta kill if others are attacking the target. |
Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
320
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 17:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
a varient that uses a boresight would be rad. Long flight time. Medium speed, low damage. Maybe 2 per round and a clip of 2-4. You could fire multiple rounds into the sky and apply the boresight to your target. All active missiles would home in on the target while the boresight is on the target.
If there are counter measures and alert sounds, the Alert would sound when the boresight is on its target and countermeasures could be used to mess with this missiles. It probably wouldn't be very effective but could provide some interesting tactics and would be a blast to use. |
Mobius Wyvern
BetaMax.
1216
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 18:51:00 -
[14] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:I like the look of those variants, as long as fire-and-forget swarms are kept as well.
That's coming from someone who uses HAVs frequently, by the way, and as someone looking forward to more aerial vehicles in the future. The only other issue I can see is that I believe we've had confirmation that countermeasures will be coming at this point, which would of course all be useless against remote-guided weapons. You also can't discount the fact that we'll drown in a sea of whiners if fire-and-forget swarms are removed an everyone has to lead their targets. As a veteran of the MechWarrior series, that's no issue for me, but I think we all know that many of our community would be woefully unprepared to handle such a change. Fire and forget are removed for laser guided. This adds the smallest amount of skill to the weapon. Note that those variants are very fast, but have the shortest range. A true fire and forget variant would probably look like this: New Standard Swarm Launcher 4 missiles, heat seeking (fire and forget) 150 damage each at prototype level Flight speed: 100 m/s Flight time: 6s Min arming distance: 100m Splash radius: 1.5m Magazine size: 4 I edited it into the stats in the OP. Cool. I agree that fire-and-forget ability should come at the cost of payload. |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 23:12:00 -
[15] - Quote
Reimus Klinsman wrote:a varient that uses a boresight would be rad. Long flight time. Medium speed, low damage. Maybe 2 per round and a clip of 2-4. You could fire multiple rounds into the sky and apply the boresight to your target. All active missiles would home in on the target while the boresight is on the target.
If there are counter measures and alert sounds, the Alert would sound when the boresight is on its target and countermeasures could be used to mess with this missiles. It probably wouldn't be very effective but could provide some interesting tactics and would be a blast to use.
During my time in the army I was a field tech, which also meant operator for the TOW missile system. This is a wire guided system where the electronics attempt to keep the missile in the center of the cross hairs so the operator is manually tracking the target with the scope. There's no target lock. There's no target painting. The only thing to warn the target that the missile is on it's way is if they see the puff of smoke from it's launcher and short acceleration thrust. The missile does fly at just over MACH, but still, there's no indication of the incoming ordinance until it hits or misses.
This leads up to my question of... Why do people think that a manual aim zero lock on weapon, such as the "boresight" described above would be, should give the target an alert tone? Just asking. |
Conraire
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
52
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 00:47:00 -
[16] - Quote
The only inherent problem would be, they would then need to nerf the DS hitpoints down, otherwise they'd be more overpowered than they are now. |
WHz DS9899
Doomheim
136
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 01:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
odd how I described these exact ideas about two weeks ago.... |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 06:25:00 -
[18] - Quote
Conraire wrote:The only inherent problem would be, they would then need to nerf the DS hitpoints down, otherwise they'd be more overpowered than they are now.
Dropship HP is fine. The damage of swarms needs to go down regardless, they do way too much damage to vehicles (When they actually hit) Not to mention that the health of a dropship has nothing to do with them being 'OP' currently. The imbalance related to vehicles can solely be blamed on the crazy awesomesauce of the missiles. Pretty much every missile system in the game needs to be massively reduced in damage. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 07:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Breach damage needs to go down. All AV damage needs to go down in my opinion as a balance for vehicle hp, I think the 600-1000 damage range for the other variants is a lot better than what we have now. Breach damage isn't a concern by itself, but things should be balanced around assuming team play (so things aren't useless in organized games), so having that wildly strong hit would turn out to be an insta kill if others are attacking the target.
Agreed. 1800 damage seems reasonable for a slow, high risk variant. |
Minmatar Slave 74136
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
291
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 08:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Reimus Klinsman wrote:a varient that uses a boresight would be rad. Long flight time. Medium speed, low damage. Maybe 2 per round and a clip of 2-4. You could fire multiple rounds into the sky and apply the boresight to your target. All active missiles would home in on the target while the boresight is on the target.
If there are counter measures and alert sounds, the Alert would sound when the boresight is on its target and countermeasures could be used to mess with this missiles. It probably wouldn't be very effective but could provide some interesting tactics and would be a blast to use. During my time in the army I was a field tech, which also meant operator for the TOW missile system. This is a wire guided system where the electronics attempt to keep the missile in the center of the cross hairs so the operator is manually tracking the target with the scope. There's no target lock. There's no target painting. The only thing to warn the target that the missile is on it's way is if they see the puff of smoke from it's launcher and short acceleration thrust. The missile does fly at just over MACH, but still, there's no indication of the incoming ordinance until it hits or misses. This leads up to my question of... Why do people think that a manual aim zero lock on weapon, such as the "boresight" described above would be, should give the target an alert tone? Just asking.
A TOW like system would be cool to use, just make sure you're in a safe spot when you launch if you have to fly the missile into the target.
The skill comes into play because you do have to fly it into the target, a brutal weapon against hAVs, and ever more of a challenge to intercept a fast moving LAV or a Dropship.
Comedy gold uses would be to splat hapless infantry, kinda like using a sledgehammer to kill flies, but hitting an individual infantryman would be far more challenging.
I like it. |
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Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
320
|
Posted - 2012.11.12 17:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Reimus Klinsman wrote:a varient that uses a boresight would be rad. Long flight time. Medium speed, low damage. Maybe 2 per round and a clip of 2-4. You could fire multiple rounds into the sky and apply the boresight to your target. All active missiles would home in on the target while the boresight is on the target.
If there are counter measures and alert sounds, the Alert would sound when the boresight is on its target and countermeasures could be used to mess with this missiles. It probably wouldn't be very effective but could provide some interesting tactics and would be a blast to use. During my time in the army I was a field tech, which also meant operator for the TOW missile system. This is a wire guided system where the electronics attempt to keep the missile in the center of the cross hairs so the operator is manually tracking the target with the scope. There's no target lock. There's no target painting. The only thing to warn the target that the missile is on it's way is if they see the puff of smoke from it's launcher and short acceleration thrust. The missile does fly at just over MACH, but still, there's no indication of the incoming ordinance until it hits or misses. This leads up to my question of... Why do people think that a manual aim zero lock on weapon, such as the "boresight" described above would be, should give the target an alert tone? Just asking.
Im under the impression that the boresight sends out a mass of radio waves that bounce off the target and the missiles guidence intercepts that rushes to the target. It was in some flight combat simulator I played back in the day so I may just of had the mechanics wrong. (The missile had a range of some 60-100km so I don't think it was wire guided) |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 13:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
more ppl need to see this feedback especially CCP |
Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 14:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
I like it- I also have something similar here https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=43677&find=unread |
Herpn Derpidus
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 14:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
why not have an AA version of the HMG? it would simply just have like 500% more effectiveness vs dropships and dramatically more range, but do overall alot less damage per shot and less effectiveness vs infantry |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 16:06:00 -
[25] - Quote
Herpn Derpidus wrote:why not have an AA version of the HMG? it would simply just have like 500% more effectiveness vs dropships and dramatically more range, but do overall alot less damage per shot and less effectiveness vs infantry
So a handheld autocannon. That only heavies can use. I don't see how this helps balance the swarms. An infantry autocannon isn't an idea I'm opposed to, mind you. It just doesn't remove the problem with swarms, and there are serious problems. |
DarkShadowFox
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
238
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 21:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
With a game like dust you cant have a weapon thats like that, it would just make vehicles unusable... there would be no point to this game and it would get VERY boring :V |
Shijima Kuraimaru
WarRavens
168
|
Posted - 2012.11.13 22:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
Reimus Klinsman wrote:Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Reimus Klinsman wrote:a varient that uses a boresight would be rad. Long flight time. Medium speed, low damage. Maybe 2 per round and a clip of 2-4. You could fire multiple rounds into the sky and apply the boresight to your target. All active missiles would home in on the target while the boresight is on the target.
If there are counter measures and alert sounds, the Alert would sound when the boresight is on its target and countermeasures could be used to mess with this missiles. It probably wouldn't be very effective but could provide some interesting tactics and would be a blast to use. During my time in the army I was a field tech, which also meant operator for the TOW missile system. This is a wire guided system where the electronics attempt to keep the missile in the center of the cross hairs so the operator is manually tracking the target with the scope. There's no target lock. There's no target painting. The only thing to warn the target that the missile is on it's way is if they see the puff of smoke from it's launcher and short acceleration thrust. The missile does fly at just over MACH, but still, there's no indication of the incoming ordinance until it hits or misses. This leads up to my question of... Why do people think that a manual aim zero lock on weapon, such as the "boresight" described above would be, should give the target an alert tone? Just asking. Im under the impression that the boresight sends out a mass of radio waves that bounce off the target and the missiles guidence intercepts that rushes to the target. It was in some flight combat simulator I played back in the day so I may just of had the mechanics wrong. (The missile had a range of some 60-100km so I don't think it was wire guided)
There's nothing to say that there couldn't be tight beam, perhaps even laser, wireless communication between the missile and the launcher, but that still wouldn't give any warning to the target. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 03:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
In case it wasn't clear, this should be accompanied by a massive reduction in forge and turret damage. |
Garrett Blacknova
Codex Troopers
1849
|
Posted - 2012.11.16 03:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:Reimus Klinsman wrote:Im under the impression that the boresight sends out a mass of radio waves that bounce off the target and the missiles guidence intercepts that rushes to the target. It was in some flight combat simulator I played back in the day so I may just of had the mechanics wrong. (The missile had a range of some 60-100km so I don't think it was wire guided) There's nothing to say that there couldn't be tight beam, perhaps even laser, wireless communication between the missile and the launcher, but that still wouldn't give any warning to the target. How would that explain the missile knowing range to the target? All your suggested tight-beam transmission would do is allow the missile to receive accurate directional data on where it is in relation to the launcher, and which direction the launcher is facing. Without a range from the launcher, this gives the missile no specific target to aim for.
To mark a target, you either make the target visible to the launcher, and the launcher tells the missile where to aim or you make the target "light up" in some manner which allows the missile to track the target for itself.
Either way, the launcher has to be putting some form of signal out towards the target, either for its own sensor systems or as a marker. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2013.01.07 16:42:00 -
[30] - Quote
Only radar guided missiles would release a "ping" to be detected, but most warning systems would light up as soon as any small fast mover was detected anyway. |
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