DUST Search - the reason why forge gun is not the answer

Overlord Zero wrote:

You are either new or have no idea of what you speak.

Gunlogi with a large missile turret and +20% damage mod on it's small and large missile turrets, plus bonuses from the ones on the guns for example. As soon as that missile turret sees you, you are toast. They can duck behind a mountain, pop out and fire off a volley of OHK missiles, and disappear in less time than it takes for you to even lock on, let alone for your swarms to reach them.

You cannot get close enough to counter the hiding behind mountains because the rest of their AR loaded team would have to be completely inept to not see you sneaking around the whole map looking for an optimal shot at a tank with nothing but a swarm launcher and a SMG or pistol, so that means you are constantly taken out by snipers, foot soldiers, the tank itself, and every runt in between who dares to try to use a different weapon because all you have is an SMG/pistol for defense.

So swarms are not the answer either.

And as for OHK a dropship with a forge gun, I myself have been able to make a Viper with over 3000 shields. Do you see very many forge guns that do 3500+ damage to take out it's armor and shields? I don't think so. And that's IF you can even hit the damn thing with it being able to flying out of range in less time than it takes for you to charge a shot.

Neither forge or swarms are the answer, they are merely fun toys that do well against weak (swarms) or incompetently driven/gunned (forge) vehicles.

The fact that orbital strikes don't hardly damage tanks and can't be locked onto dropships bugs me too, but that's another topic.


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Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.06 22:19:00 - [1] - Quote Forge Guns are the best answer to DROPSHIPS in the current build, because they can usually one-shot if you're on a similar level in terms of tech level and SP investment. But against ground vehicles, Swarms are better. You don't need as long to get a lock, you can duck into cover as you're firing, you can curve shots to misdirect your target's return fire, and Assaults or even Scouts can carry them, allowing much greater mobility than a Heavy suit. Even a Militia Swarm Launcher can deal visible damage to the toughest tanks. If you can keep your ammo supply up (Depot or Nanohive), a couple of decent Swarm Launchers can control a surprisingly wide area.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.07 16:32:00 - [2] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: Forge Guns are the best answer to DROPSHIPS in the current build, because they can usually one-shot if you're on a similar level in terms of tech level and SP investment. But against ground vehicles, Swarms are better. You don't need as long to get a lock, you can duck into cover as you're firing, you can curve shots to misdirect your target's return fire, and Assaults or even Scouts can carry them, allowing much greater mobility than a Heavy suit. Even a Militia Swarm Launcher can deal visible damage to the toughest tanks. If you can keep your ammo supply up (Depot or Nanohive), a couple of decent Swarm Launchers can control a surprisingly wide area. actually, railguns (besides militia and possibly standard small railguns) are the best way to take them down- IF you get them deployed without the dropship killing you first I was meaning the best INFANTRY answer. Sorry. Yeah, vehicles have some better options for anti-dropship, but a Forge is still a pretty good choice, and you spawn with it in your hands already, unlike the vehicles.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.08 20:54:00 - [3] - Quote Overlord Zero wrote: You are either new or have no idea of what you speak. Gunlogi with a large missile turret and +20% damage mod on it's small and large missile turrets, plus bonuses from the ones on the guns for example. As soon as that missile turret sees you, you are toast. They can duck behind a mountain, pop out and fire off a volley of OHK missiles, and disappear in less time than it takes for you to even lock on, let alone for your swarms to reach them. You cannot get close enough to counter the hiding behind mountains because the rest of their AR loaded team would have to be completely inept to not see you sneaking around the whole map looking for an optimal shot at a tank with nothing but a swarm launcher and a SMG or pistol, so that means you are constantly taken out by snipers, foot soldiers, the tank itself, and every runt in between who dares to try to use a different weapon because all you have is an SMG/pistol for defense. So swarms are not the answer either. And as for OHK a dropship with a forge gun, I myself have been able to make a Viper with over 3000 shields. Do you see very many forge guns that do 3500+ damage to take out it's armor and shields? I don't think so. And that's IF you can even hit the damn thing with it being able to flying out of range in less time than it takes for you to charge a shot. Neither forge or swarms are the answer, they are merely fun toys that do well against weak (swarms) or incompetently driven/gunned (forge) vehicles. The fact that orbital strikes don't hardly damage tanks and can't be locked onto dropships bugs me too, but that's another topic. 3 players with Militia Swarm Launchers on the AV Starter fits. 0 cost to set up, and 0 cost to replace after death. A handful of snipers/AR guys on your team to hold the enemy AR guys at bay while one or two of your Swarm guys move to better firing positions - possibly using a starter fit LAV or two for transport. Get lined up with 2 or 3 different angles on the target, and they can pop back into cover only to realise they'e just popped OUT of cover for another guy. Their missiles have travel time too, and if you're not where they expect you to be when they pop out to shoot, they'll miss their chance by the time they have to retreat. Reposition, not far, just a little, while the target's hiding. Your snipers and AR guys can prevent their infantry from getting a good bead on the Swarm users, which means they don't get to pre-emptively target you - they HAVE to come out of hiding to find their targets. And if you're using Profile Dampeners with your AV fitting, you're even harder to spot. I've seen a couple of FREE starter fits take out multiple Gunnlogis in a single match. I've personally killed a Sagaris with a BPO-modified AV Starter fit. Obviously, not alone, but I landed the finishing blow. Dropships get to cheat the system a little because of the dodgy pathing, but if you're good with Swarms, you can manipulate the pathing glitches to your advantage against ground targets.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.08 21:08:00 - [4] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Have u met a good shield tank. not mine. but a sagaris or well fit gunnlogi. Milita swarms. they laugh at those. Lol When you're not up against cheaply-fitted tanks, you bring something that costs more than NO ISK AT ALL to fight them. Obviously. Also, that Sagaris had lost its shields already when I landed my finishing blow. Something called a "Forge Gun" - maybe you've heard of them? One of the turrets landed a kill on the guy before he could finish the job, but fortunately, Mr Militia Fit (I was actually LAV hunting at the time) was in the right place to get a lucky shot before the shields came back.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.10 12:56:00 - [5] - Quote BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: BobThe843CakeMan wrote: Have u met a good shield tank. not mine. but a sagaris or well fit gunnlogi. Milita swarms. they laugh at those. Lol When you're not up against cheaply-fitted tanks, you bring something that costs more than NO ISK AT ALL to fight them. Obviously. Also, that Sagaris had lost its shields already when I landed my finishing blow. Something called a "Forge Gun" - maybe you've heard of them? One of the turrets landed a kill on the guy before he could finish the job, but fortunately, Mr Militia Fit (I was actually LAV hunting at the time) was in the right place to get a lucky shot before the shields came back. u nvr mentioned forge guns all u said 3 milita swarms can kill a tank and i was just proving u wrong. btw this thread is why forge guns need to be cheaper. But none the less nice finish on tht sagaris Lol. i remember when i got the finishing blows on a gunnlogi with a toxin. :D I said they can kill a tank. And they can. I never said they can kill ANY tank. A well-fitted shield tanked Gunnlogi would be possible for 3 Militia Swarms to take down, but you'd need luck on your side, and some good covering fire from the rest of your team while you're doing it. I said that I've seen a couple of players (that's 2) take down multiple Gunnlogis in a single match using only starter AV fits. That's also true. They weren't well-fitted Gunnlogis, and they hadn't been shield tanked particularly well. They were still Gunnlogis, and we skill killed 3 of them with 0 cost to ourselves. I died twice, the other guy died 3 times. One death each to the tanks themselves, and a couple of AR or Sniper deaths while we were busy. If they had been taking the Militia Swarms easily, I'd have been bringing a better Swarm Launcher. I don't use Forge Guns this build, I don't have a Forge fitting at the moment, the guy I was running AV with in that match did, but didn't think it was necessary at the time. Garrett Blacknova wrote: Even a Militia Swarm Launcher can deal visible damage to the toughest tanks. That's the core point of the post where you started arguing against me, and it's still true. Best shield-tanked Sagaris I've seen will still feel a Militia Swarm - not as a major threat, but at least a noticeable one.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.10 13:33:00 - [6] - Quote Needless Sacermendor wrote: Light damage mods are your friends ... if you get hit while you're HAV hunting you're dead ... I have a 40k advanced swarm fit with advanced rep and plate and dual advanced damage mods that shreads HAVs. I've only just started running it, used to tank the high slots for survivability, but the HAVs are getting good now and a cheap high damage fit is needed to take them out. But this is all off topic ... I agree payouts seem a bit off ... I'm not sure if payouts are somehow based on the value you are risking aswell. For the HAV killing HAV post earlier getting high payouts it would make sense. I also seem to notice when I run free fits I earn less than I do running 40-50k fits when getting similar results in vehicle kills and suit losses etc. Anyone else noticed this as a possible factor in the calculation ? I haven't tested it in this build, but I know my testing in the later stages of the E3 build looked like that was how things worked. I'd be more surprised if they changed than than kept it the same, since none of the patch notes since that time have mentioned a change in that regard.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.10 16:19:00 - [7] - Quote Overlord Zero wrote: You are missing the over all point. This may work in corp battles where everyone in your team works together to open a path to the tank for you (if they are able to), but in general battles that will never happen. 3 militia swarms. That means you only have 1 squad mate left to clear a path for all 3 of you through all of the snipers and AR's so you can get a clear shot at the tank (since the blueberries couldn't care less you wanna kill the tank). And depending on the map, the tank can outmaneuver your weak swarms easily. Ever tried this trick around the north buildings in Line Harvest? Crates, walls, ceilings, and stupid swarms that fly right into stuff instead of heading straight to the target kind of stop your strategy in it's tracks even IF your one squad mate can clear a path. Manus peak? Swarms have flown into cliffs and rocks directly to my right on that map so many times that I'm starting to think the map is bugged. In fact, there are maybe 10 small areas collectively over every map available that would allow you to pull off such a thing without something going wrong. IF the tank is in such a place, IF you have someone to clear you a path, IF you have the ammo, IF you have 3 people with swarms, IF you are able to dodge every volley, IF you can somehow not have your swarms detouring into the face of a mountain on the way to the target, then yeah, you might have a chance. ie, it's a broken system. Swarm pathing is horrifically buggy. Not going to argue against that. When they're behaving, though, they're brilliant. And when I've seen 3 Militia Swarms working together effectively, it's usually been a squad of 2 Swarms with 2 guys backing them up, and a third Swarm guy who's tagged along because his Squad Leader sucks (or because he just happens to be in the area. I've also seen times where 2 squads of total strangers have ended up coordinating you you get 3 Swarms and FIVE people backing them up, in spite of the fact that it's a pub match. Also, my Swarms seem to misbehave far less than yours. There are a handful of places I've encountered - but it's maybe, MAYBE a total of 10 points, spread across ALL the maps, where I have trouble. The rest of the time, I'm fine. Pretty sure it's less than 10, actually, but there are a few points on a couple of maps where I've only been exploring with my "Free Hugs" builds, not as an AV guy.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.15 17:09:00 - [8] - Quote Wakko03 wrote: So, nobody has a problem with getting no additional money (isk) for taking out a vehicle, while getting extra money for using one.....curious. Oh and if you are going to plagarize a post at least have the decency to admit it. Pretty sure nobody's arguing that you SHOULDN'T get rewarded for taking the vehicle out. We've spent the whole thread discussing ways to adjust the system so you DO get rewarded for taking them out. I'm rather partial to WPs for Kills and Assists using the same system as Syndicate (I'm sure other games do it too, that was the first to come to mind). Whatever the target is, there's a WP value attached. The percentage of damage you deal should be applied to that value to determine how much of the reward goes to each player. Using Syndicate's example, if a kill is worth 100 points on a specific enemy, and one player deals 70% of the damage, then another kills the target, the killer gets credit for the kill - which goes towards their K/D and kill count, but only gets 30 points, while the guy who did more damage gets 70 points, but doesn't count the kill. If they double the WP reward for a kill, then 2 Assists at +25 and a kill at +50 will turn into 100 points split between the players based on how much damage they actually dealt to the target. The problem with this system is that shields regenerate (in Syndicate, shields work very differently, and breaking them is rewarded independently of the kill) and armour can be repaired. If there was a time limit on Assist points, that might work - any damage you deal has to result in a kill within, for example, 10 seconds, or the points "reset" and you no longer get any credit for the kill.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.19 15:46:00 - [9] - Quote HowDidThatTaste wrote: Well now that tanks will be half price the forge gun is going to be more expensive to run than ever? I just hope the payouts are going to make up for it. Cause I love my forge gun, can't wait for some tasty tanks. Please don't tell me they're cutting vehicle prices... I just started skilling into vehicles on my alt, and I STILL think this is a terrible idea... EDIT: Never mind. It's an event, only lasting a week, not a permanent cut to prices.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.20 03:31:00 - [10] - Quote THE-BEAST wrote: So I just blew up two gun logis. Not sure how much help I got but I sure thought I would get a hug payday. But I only got 148,000 isk is this all we get for that kinda work and suit loss? Apparently that's part of the "payouts don't work right" glitch. CCP have officially claimed that you get reduced payouts for being in a match less time and that causes the appearance of lower payouts, but many people still insist they've tested and confirmed the game doesn't pay out for vehicle destruction. I haven't heard any definitive confirmation since the testing has supposedly happened, but I haven't seen the evidence people are claiming. While I haven't actively tested it, their conclusions SEEM to match my personal experience, but I don't consider my situation to have been monitored accurately enough to judge.