DUST Search - Feedback on Balance

EnglishSnake wrote:

Garrett Blacknova wrote:

EnglishSnake wrote:

Complains about swarm missiles but yet doesnt say that

1. You can lock on behind cover
2. Missiles will bend around cover to hit a tank, sometimes taking mulitple turns to reach target
3. Fire from otherside of map in safety

1. Not true. Unless you have LoS to at least part of the target vehicle, you can't acquire a lock. And when you have the lock, you only have about a second to fire the shot if you lose LoS after locking on.

2. You have to DELIBERATELY aim around cover for this to happen, it doesn't just spontaneously WORK without any effort. That requires a lock to be acquired while at least partially exposed, then you duck back into cover, at which point you have a time limit before the lock is lost, and have to quickly aim around the cover before releasing the shot.

2. b) Even when you do everything right... or worse, even when you just fire straight at a target, sometimes the missiles decide to rush off more than 90-Ü away from both your aiming point AND the target, and ram a nearby structure for no apparent reason, usually wasting at least half the Swarm, and sometimes the whole volley of missiles. This happens FAR more often than a successful curved shot around cover.

3. Nope. Missile Turrets and Railgun Turrets both outrange Swarm Launchers, even with maxed-out Sharpshooter skill vs. a totally un-leveled enemy vehicle.

You don't use Swarms very often, do you?

1. Its true i have done it and seen it done to me because ther is no whay they can lock on in less than a second

2. Aiming lol no its isnt, im ther on my hill see a SL just being launched and back around cover but the missiles hit your cover dont they? no they dont they avoid the cover perfectly and hit my HAV, what you said is pure BS you dont aim or make it happen all you do is lock and fire and it happen 99% of the time

b) lolno it doesnt

3. As a HAV driver do i see SL users fire from ther spawn point? yes i do and it happens alot in every game tbh

Hm i think you use swarms less than me and im in a tank 99% of the time

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Tyerani Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3	Posted - 2012.11.06 17:37:00 - [1] - Quote At present. I can't find any game balance to leave feedback on. Every single match I've played in the last two days has devolved into either spawn trapping with the invincible gunlogi tanks, and 'broadside' HMG's with heavy suits. Sometimes it's only one, or the other. But it's always at least one of those two. And during the 2x skillpoint weekend, it was dropship dropship dropship. Oh, and the assault rifle. Where's the balance there? Shotgun, SMG, pistol, mass driver, etc etc etc etc etc. They're all outclassed IMMENSELY by even the militia assault rifle. What's the point of having these other weapons when a militia assault rifle can put more damage on target in less time, more accurately? And snipers. Aren't they supposed to, you know, take out ground targets? So far, I've only ever really taken down other snipers. Because to get out of the effective range of the laser-accurate assault rifles requires me to reduce everything in my scope to the size of an ant. That makes it kinda hard to hit things. And SWARM missiles. What a joke. I can jog faster than those things. The guy in the tank sees them coming and has time to literally reverse 50 metres and hide behind something before the missiles hit. Maybe if the missiles flew twice as fast. At present, it's pointless to have these other weapons. 90% of people use assault rifles or the broadside. Because they're the only things that actually make you even with other people who have the same. That is, unless you have a tank with a gunlogi system. Then feel free to ignore everything on the field.
The Peregrine Algintal Core Gallente Federation 0	Posted - 2012.11.06 20:22:00 - [2] - Quote Amen... mostly. I agree, the balance is seriously screwed up. But I think the biggest problem is player balance, more than equipment balance. There needs to be a system in place that determines what each player has in terms of assets and distributes the advanced players with advanced equipment evenly between the teams. Case in point: I was just in a match where we got pounded by two gunlogi tanks and a dropship. The problem wasn't the power of the tanks, but that they were both deployed on the same team. I know they were most likely sqadded together before hand, but I've been in other matches where one team deploys an HAV and a dropship while the other has no assets to counter it. Again, the problem is not in the equipment itself, but in the balance of the players who have the equipment. If at all possible they need to be divided between the two teams. As for weapon balance, I haven't had much of an issue between the weapon types. They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Yeah, the AR is a fairly powerful all-round weapon, and has good range, but at close range it's outclassed by SGs (more power, instant kill within a couple meters), SMGs and HMGs (higher RoF, more ammo capacity). The broadside HMG is basically just early access to the proto HMG. Sniper rifles are, in my experience, very good against ground troops. My only complaint is about ammo capacity and RoF. The militia rifle holds 3 rounds per clip. Nowhere near enough. Honestly, if any weapon is overpowered, its the scrambler pistol. I've seen people rack up kills using nothing but an assault pistol, and personally, they're the most annoying ones on the battlefield. You're 100% right about swarm missiles though. They need to be quicker. And for some reason, they always fall in behind dropships, regardless of what angle you fire them at in relation to the vehicle. This means the pilot has more than enough time to get up to speed and outrun them. If you are facing the bow and fire at the bow, the missiles should fly towards and impact against the bow. The only time they should fall in behind is if they overshoot. At the very least, they need to be faster than the dropships, requiring the pilot to get something in between him and the missiles. In fact, they should be quite a lot faster than vehicles, so the drivers actually have to use some skill to avoid them.
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 3064	Posted - 2012.11.06 22:04:00 - [3] - Quote A free militia swarm launcher should not be capable of destroying a 150k + dropship. Only standard and up swarm launchers should get a speed boost, and the speed should depend on the tier. Maybe special variants with extra speed and less damage can be added for standard, advanced, and prototype. Militia swarm launchers should suck.
Tyerani Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3	Posted - 2012.11.07 00:59:00 - [4] - Quote KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: A free militia swarm launcher should not be capable of destroying a 150k + dropship. Only standard and up swarm launchers should get a speed boost, and the speed should depend on the tier. Maybe special variants with extra speed and less damage can be added for standard, advanced, and prototype. Militia swarm launchers should suck. Ohsure. The militia swarm launcher shoulder suck. But the others should not. I've taken on tanks equipped with gunnlogi turrets, using guerrilla tactics. And let me tell you, it's a goddamn waste of time. I'm at the point where I don't bother even wasting my credits losing my good fittings to the tanks now, and it becomes a case of BOHICA. Even the best SWARM launcher I have access to basically just takes off the tanks shield. And then they're aware of me and can just hide behind **** whenever I fire. Even using a heavy suit (the 700 health one)with a SWARM launcher, I can barely get them down past their shields. And you might say 'hey, you're a single soldier, use teamwork', I was using teamwork. For you to have ANY effect with a SWARM launcher, you need to be within a hundred metres. Otherwise the flight time is like, ten seconds. And don't any of you even pretend otherwise. Everyone else at 150+ metres was having no effect because their missiles were just impacting structures/geography. And if we can't use the SWARM launcher against tanks, what do we use it against? The cars? I'm pretty sure the cars can outstrip the missiles and not even get out of third gear.
ugg reset ZionTCD Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.11.07 03:51:00 - [5] - Quote Tyerani wrote: KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: A free militia swarm launcher should not be capable of destroying a 150k + dropship. Only standard and up swarm launchers should get a speed boost, and the speed should depend on the tier. Maybe special variants with extra speed and less damage can be added for standard, advanced, and prototype. Militia swarm launchers should suck. Ohsure. The militia swarm launcher shoulder suck. But the others should not. I've taken on tanks equipped with gunnlogi turrets, using guerrilla tactics. And let me tell you, it's a goddamn waste of time. I'm at the point where I don't bother even wasting my credits losing my good fittings to the tanks now, and it becomes a case of BOHICA. Even the best SWARM launcher I have access to basically just takes off the tanks shield. And then they're aware of me and can just hide behind **** whenever I fire. Even using a heavy suit (the 700 health one)with a SWARM launcher, I can barely get them down past their shields. And you might say 'hey, you're a single soldier, use teamwork', I was using teamwork. For you to have ANY effect with a SWARM launcher, you need to be within a hundred metres. Otherwise the flight time is like, ten seconds. And don't any of you even pretend otherwise. Everyone else at 150+ metres was having no effect because their missiles were just impacting structures/geography. And if we can't use the SWARM launcher against tanks, what do we use it against? The cars? I'm pretty sure the cars can outstrip the missiles and not even get out of third gear. Unless your running a shield LAV with a fuel injector you're aren't out running anything. Shame really since thats the only thing they can rely on to stay in a fight.
Vermaak Doe SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 385	Posted - 2012.11.07 03:53:00 - [6] - Quote Damn QQing snipers always b*tching
Tyerani Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3	Posted - 2012.11.07 05:55:00 - [7] - Quote Vermaak Doe wrote: Damn QQing snipers always b*tching Actually, I don't snipe often. Mainly because the sniper rifles are next to useless. You know, what with the assault rifles that double as sniper rifles.
STB Vermaak Doe 558	Posted - 2012.11.07 06:33:00 - [8] - Quote You do realize you have to skill to get more range and even then the sniper has 6 times the range of the ar, and the fact that they have similar recoil means the sniper gets an overall higher dps
Bobshurunkle Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1	Posted - 2012.11.12 12:00:00 - [9] - Quote Definitely needs to be a way of balancing teams in random battles. I've been in similar situations to the above where the other team has tanks, dropships and HMG's while we've had diddly to hit back with. I'm a complete noob so I'm still a bit overwhelmed by the game but I too think that the AR's range is probably a bit on the long side. When sniping you do seriously have to be so far away you're targeting stick men to prevent getting taken out by AR's easily. I also feel the minigun is overpowered. I've spent so much time being taken out by them I might as well be dancing around in the buff waving a feather at them for all the good I'm doing.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.12 13:24:00 - [10] - Quote Complains about swarm missiles but yet doesnt say that 1. You can lock on behind cover 2. Missiles will bend around cover to hit a tank, sometimes taking mulitple turns to reach target 3. Fire from otherside of map in safety

Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.12 14:53:00 - [11] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Complains about swarm missiles but yet doesnt say that 1. You can lock on behind cover 2. Missiles will bend around cover to hit a tank, sometimes taking mulitple turns to reach target 3. Fire from otherside of map in safety 1. Not true. Unless you have LoS to at least part of the target vehicle, you can't acquire a lock. And when you have the lock, you only have about a second to fire the shot if you lose LoS after locking on. 2. You have to DELIBERATELY aim around cover for this to happen, it doesn't just spontaneously WORK without any effort. That requires a lock to be acquired while at least partially exposed, then you duck back into cover, at which point you have a time limit before the lock is lost, and have to quickly aim around the cover before releasing the shot. 2. b) Even when you do everything right... or worse, even when you just fire straight at a target, sometimes the missiles decide to rush off more than 90-Ü away from both your aiming point AND the target, and ram a nearby structure for no apparent reason, usually wasting at least half the Swarm, and sometimes the whole volley of missiles. This happens FAR more often than a successful curved shot around cover. 3. Nope. Missile Turrets and Railgun Turrets both outrange Swarm Launchers, even with maxed-out Sharpshooter skill vs. a totally un-leveled enemy vehicle. You don't use Swarms very often, do you?
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.12 15:25:00 - [12] - Quote Garrett Blacknova wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Complains about swarm missiles but yet doesnt say that 1. You can lock on behind cover 2. Missiles will bend around cover to hit a tank, sometimes taking mulitple turns to reach target 3. Fire from otherside of map in safety 1. Not true. Unless you have LoS to at least part of the target vehicle, you can't acquire a lock. And when you have the lock, you only have about a second to fire the shot if you lose LoS after locking on. 2. You have to DELIBERATELY aim around cover for this to happen, it doesn't just spontaneously WORK without any effort. That requires a lock to be acquired while at least partially exposed, then you duck back into cover, at which point you have a time limit before the lock is lost, and have to quickly aim around the cover before releasing the shot. 2. b) Even when you do everything right... or worse, even when you just fire straight at a target, sometimes the missiles decide to rush off more than 90-Ü away from both your aiming point AND the target, and ram a nearby structure for no apparent reason, usually wasting at least half the Swarm, and sometimes the whole volley of missiles. This happens FAR more often than a successful curved shot around cover. 3. Nope. Missile Turrets and Railgun Turrets both outrange Swarm Launchers, even with maxed-out Sharpshooter skill vs. a totally un-leveled enemy vehicle. You don't use Swarms very often, do you? 1. Its true i have done it and seen it done to me because ther is no whay they can lock on in less than a second 2. Aiming lol no its isnt, im ther on my hill see a SL just being launched and back around cover but the missiles hit your cover dont they? no they dont they avoid the cover perfectly and hit my HAV, what you said is pure BS you dont aim or make it happen all you do is lock and fire and it happen 99% of the time b) lolno it doesnt 3. As a HAV driver do i see SL users fire from ther spawn point? yes i do and it happens alot in every game tbh Hm i think you use swarms less than me and im in a tank 99% of the time
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.12 15:58:00 - [13] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Garrett Blacknova wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Complains about swarm missiles but yet doesnt say that 1. You can lock on behind cover 2. Missiles will bend around cover to hit a tank, sometimes taking mulitple turns to reach target 3. Fire from otherside of map in safety 1. Not true. Unless you have LoS to at least part of the target vehicle, you can't acquire a lock. And when you have the lock, you only have about a second to fire the shot if you lose LoS after locking on. 2. You have to DELIBERATELY aim around cover for this to happen, it doesn't just spontaneously WORK without any effort. That requires a lock to be acquired while at least partially exposed, then you duck back into cover, at which point you have a time limit before the lock is lost, and have to quickly aim around the cover before releasing the shot. 2. b) Even when you do everything right... or worse, even when you just fire straight at a target, sometimes the missiles decide to rush off more than 90-Ü away from both your aiming point AND the target, and ram a nearby structure for no apparent reason, usually wasting at least half the Swarm, and sometimes the whole volley of missiles. This happens FAR more often than a successful curved shot around cover. 3. Nope. Missile Turrets and Railgun Turrets both outrange Swarm Launchers, even with maxed-out Sharpshooter skill vs. a totally un-leveled enemy vehicle. You don't use Swarms very often, do you? 1. Its true i have done it and seen it done to me because ther is no whay they can lock on in less than a second 2. Aiming lol no its isnt, im ther on my hill see a SL just being launched and back around cover but the missiles hit your cover dont they? no they dont they avoid the cover perfectly and hit my HAV, what you said is pure BS you dont aim or make it happen all you do is lock and fire and it happen 99% of the time b) lolno it doesnt 3. As a HAV driver do i see SL users fire from ther spawn point? yes i do and it happens alot in every game tbh Hm i think you use swarms less than me and im in a tank 99% of the time 1. This only works when the game's LoS calculations break, or when the person has LoS on PART of your tank, but not all of it. You NEED LoS to get a lock. Or the game needs to THINK you have LoS when you don't in a best-case scenario. 2. In my experience, more often than not, this DOESN'T happen. There are OCCASIONAL RARE MOMENTS when the missile will glitch around the very edge of cover if you're not fast enough getting behind cover and the Swarm guy is REALLY lucky. There are also times where the Swarm keeps heading for where you WERE for a few seconds after you move, and ends up making it around the corner instead of hitting the obstacle like it logically should have. b) Then explain what just happened to me in the match I was playing about 5 minutes ago. An enemy called in their LAV, then got sniped as it was landing. There were several other enemies nearby, so moving in to hack it wasn't a sensible option, and I had brought my AV fit. I had 8 ammo for my Militia Swarm Launcher. Locked on. First shot, 2 missiles flew into a building that was about 100m to my right. The other 2 damaged the shields, but didn't break them. Next shot all 4 missiles went past the LAV and rammed a building behind it instead. Reloaded, repositioned, and the next round of missiles all went for a building BEHIND ME and to the left. Next shot I got lucky and 2 missiles hit the target, taking its shields down again. An enemy hopped into the LAV, and drove off. It came back around the corner (and while it was behind cover, EVEN THOUGH I HAD THE TARGET VISIBLE THANKS TO A SNIPER, I COULDN'T LOCK ON BECAUSE I DIDN'T HAVE LINE OF SIGHT), I locked on, dodged the attempt at running me over and fired almost straight up, my missiles went up, then curved around AWAY from the LAV and slammed into one of the indestructible flatbed trucks that was in the area. I followed the LAV and kept it in sight while reloading, then got another lock. My missiles, for once, all hit the target. But it had regenned fully (again) and while it took major damage, it still didn't die. I eventually ran out of ammo and switched to my SMG to fight the enemy Assault guys who came after me before I got to kill the thing. When someone finally actually killed it, I got the Assist. But that didn't happen until 2 infantry kills (with my AV fitting) and a death later. 3. From their spawn point? Yes. But not to anywhere particularly FAR from the spawn point. Certainly not at the kind of range a missile turret can fire.
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.11.12 16:11:00 - [14] - Quote 1. Its true i have done it and seen it done to me because ther is no whay they can lock on in less than a second 2. Aiming lol no its isnt, im ther on my hill see a SL just being launched and back around cover but the missiles hit your cover dont they? no they dont they avoid the cover perfectly and hit my HAV, what you said is pure BS you dont aim or make it happen all you do is lock and fire and it happen 99% of the time my HAV should know its gets hit by them b) lolno it doesnt, i havnt seen it when they launch from the hillside 3. As a HAV driver do i see SL users fire from ther spawn point? yes i do and it happens alot in every game tbh, redline to redline
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.11.12 16:30:00 - [15] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: 1. Its true i have done it and seen it done to me because ther is no whay they can lock on in less than a second 2. Aiming lol no its isnt, im ther on my hill see a SL just being launched and back around cover but the missiles hit your cover dont they? no they dont they avoid the cover perfectly and hit my HAV, what you said is pure BS you dont aim or make it happen all you do is lock and fire and it happen 99% of the time my HAV should know its gets hit by them b) lolno it doesnt, i havnt seen it when they launch from the hillside 3. As a HAV driver do i see SL users fire from ther spawn point? yes i do and it happens alot in every game tbh, redline to redline 1. Already explained. No this DOESN'T work in the majority of cases. You more often than not CAN'T lock on through an obstacle. You NEED LoS on at least PART of the target. They don't necessarily have to be able to see you, but you need to have an angle on them. Occasional rare exceptions where there are line of sight glitches.If you have a vehicle moving in front of you, and it drives around the corner before you get the lock - EVEN if you have a teammate spotting for you so it stays visible - YOU LOSE YOUR PARTIAL LOCK and have to move or wait until it comes back around. 2. And this, more often than not, DOESN'T pan out the way you're describing in my experience. Maybe you're seeing different issues from the ones I'm seeing. Maybe you're getting screwed by lag and the server thinks the missiles are already closer than you're seeing them. The majority of the time, missiles which have an obstacle in the way hit the obstacle and explode. b) I've just provided an example from my last match. It happens REGULARLY. 3. I've never seen anyone do this with Swarm Missiles. I've never been able to do it myself with Swarm Missiles. I've seen it with Missile Turrets on a regular basis though. Both as a gunner and as the target, as well as when I've been somewhere else close enough to either the shooter or the target to see what's going on. On this point, I'll admit the best I've used this build are Advanced, not Prototype Swarm Launchers, so if that makes a difference, there MAY be a way to get Swarms that do this. But I've seen other people with Prototype Swarm Launchers who couldn't do it, and there's nothing in their statline that suggests any practical differences that would affect their flight time (which is the key limitation on Swarm range)
I-Shayz-I ZionTCD Legacy Rising 172	Posted - 2012.11.12 22:37:00 - [16] - Quote The assault rifle just needs dispersion over time. The damage on the assault rifle is fine, but not when it's super accurate from long distances even when firing the entire clip. The SMG disperses, so why not the assault rifle?


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