DUST Search - Challenge is what makes a game fun

Shijima Kuraimaru wrote:

Aighun wrote:

Here is the thing that I find frustrating. The game reacts more slowly to what I input using the controller than I can react to all of the different sensory information I am taking in while playing. And I am pretty slow.

It's called latency. It's always there in continuously varying amounts in any internet game. It's inherent to the nature of the system. It takes time for the signal from your fire button to get to the PS3, then it takes time for the signal to travel to the server from the PS3, the server then takes time to process the shot, then it takes time for that result to come back to your PS3, then it takes time for the PS3 to process that information and show you the result. In all of these time issues, the biggest amount of time is in the to and from travel time between the servers and the PS3s. Many things can affect the latency such as line noise, how many people are putting load on the branch your line is connected to, etc. Things that are beyond your, and CCP's, control.

If you want nearly instant response, you'll need to stick to serial LAN connection (no internet) or single player PS3 native games.


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Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.28 03:30:00 - [1] - Quote I agree. And feel that Dust is lacking in opportunities to exhibit "skill" with a controller. We'll call it skill as a sort of shorthand. Players should not feel like they have run up against the limits of what the game will allow them to do using their instinct, physical coordination, reaction time, and so on. All that stuff is fundamental to making a great console game. Something that has been a part of gaming since at least Pong. And I agree that Dust can and should give players a lot more to do and more challenges to overcome at this level of gaming. But there are other skills that a player can bring to this game. Character progression, planning stat investment, creating fittings, managing resources, propaganda, communication, macroscopic timing (i.e. being at the right star system at the right time) anticipating troop movement, all of that top down, RTS, RPG, "spread sheet" MMO type stuff also takes a great deal of skill to do well. These skills should not be forgotten, and players that like to get into this sort of thing should also have plenty of room to strut their stuff.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.28 04:17:00 - [2] - Quote Skihids wrote: Good points. I think CCP has more experience on the MMO side of skill requirements than the FPS side. The thing is new players will judge the ge first on the FPS side, and that's what we will experience on a daily basis. There is room for improvement. I would not even call it the FPS side. I would call it the video gaming side. From Pong to Donkey Kong to Tetris to Metroid to Tekken to Tony Hawk Pro Skater to Guitar Hero to Dark Souls. To name a few non FPS games that offer challenge in moment to moment gameplay, visceral, physical I am the controller game play. Here is the thing that I find frustrating. The game reacts more slowly to what I input using the controller than I can react to all of the different sensory information I am taking in while playing. And I am pretty slow. This happens with lateral movement. Turn speed. Switching out weapons. To name a few examples. The flow of the game feels impeded. To take your bowling example, almost as if there were bumpers right there in the lane and everyone has to bowl down a two foot path left open in the center. So even if I felt like trying to throw a sweet hook shot the minute I let go the ball gets funneled down the middle of the lane between the bumpers. We are all making the same shot. As has been repeated incessantly "She (or he) who bowls first wins." Or maybe, "The player with the most or the biggest balls (bowling balls) wins." But there doesn't seem to be a lot of, "The player with the best hook shot wins." I don't think we have seen enough of the "strategy" side of the game to really be able to say one way or the other. But in this I hope that it is potentially at least as deep as EVE for players that want to get into that stuff.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.28 19:35:00 - [3] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: Aighun wrote: Here is the thing that I find frustrating. The game reacts more slowly to what I input using the controller than I can react to all of the different sensory information I am taking in while playing. And I am pretty slow. It's called latency. It's always there in continuously varying amounts in any internet game. It's inherent to the nature of the system. It takes time for the signal from your fire button to get to the PS3, then it takes time for the signal to travel to the server from the PS3, the server then takes time to process the shot, then it takes time for that result to come back to your PS3, then it takes time for the PS3 to process that information and show you the result. In all of these time issues, the biggest amount of time is in the to and from travel time between the servers and the PS3s. Many things can affect the latency such as line noise, how many people are putting load on the branch your line is connected to, etc. Things that are beyond your, and CCP's, control. If you want nearly instant response, you'll need to stick to serial LAN connection (no internet) or single player PS3 native games. Not what I am talking about at all. Didn't mention shooting, or firing in my examples. I am well versed in the vagaries of latency. Yes, the latency is frustrating and is most apparent in this beta when I am running toward an enemy or group of enemies to get in range and when I transition to firing my weapon the game sort of freezes for a second before picking back up again. But the time it takes to switch out weapons is very slow, no matter the latency. It is a constant. As are turn speed and lateral movement speed. All of these aspects of character movement have built in ceilings or take a set amount of time (no matter what) that interrupts game flow and makes it feel slow and clunky. By the time I see clear and present danger, realize I need to reload or switch out my weapon for a back up, hit R2, duck for cover, flank the enemy, line up a shot, get back behind cover, turn and face 2 more players moving in on my position, line up a shot, revive a fallen team mate, nope, still waiting for the switch out weapon animation to complete... Take Dark Souls, for example. The time it takes your character to switch out weapons is not instantaneous, but also not agonizingly slow. It does not change even when the lag is terrible while fighting another player online. When I press a button to switch out my weapon to a back up weapon the system responds in a consistent and rapid manner. And latency doesn't affect how quickly this takes place after I press a button and then move an analog stick, say, if I need to dodge an attack, or escape stunlock. It does affect how my input and animation and hit box interact with the other player's attacks, animations and hit box, and yes, with latency that interaction can get funky. But that is only to be expected. Oddly enough, in DUST 514 there are some areas of gameplay where there are near immediate responses between controller and action in game. Mainly jumping in and out of an LAV, switching positions in a vehicle, moving from the driver seat to the gunner's seat in a dropship, Solo flying and gunning from a dropship is one thing a player can do that utilizes the gaming skills I would like to see more room for in DUST 514, and there is not really any sort of limit that a player can't pass beyond, or bumper in the bowling lane, so to speak, if you want to solo fly and gun from a dropship. How well you do is purely based on how well you can do. The PS 3 is a very supple and responsive system, compared to say, Xbox, and Dust just doesn't make use of that.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.29 02:16:00 - [4] - Quote Shijima Kuraimaru wrote: I see what you're saying. I also get frustrated with the frame rate and packet drops. However, the weapon transition speed you're describing say from stowing an AR and switching to sidearm, or reversed, seem pretty good to me. The only time I've seen complete weapon switching as fast as what you're talking about, outside of a game, is when the wielder drops the weapon they're holding, rather than stowing it, and pulls the backup. I like the switch time. It forces one to evaluate whether the situation is conducive to the switch which is an entirely different skill in itself. That the slow option makes you evaluate your choices could be a good thing. I could live with if. But we have a lot of slow options and not many quick options as infantry in gun battles. Also, the game is not self consistent in the details. Why I brought up switching seats in vehicle. It makes no sense at all that players in "fast paced" gun battles should have to stop and think and evaluated if they should draw a side arm, re-load, or run away, if the game does not force that same kind of decision making on players getting in and out of LAVs, or switching seats in vehicles. But maybe each seat and the door to enter and exit a vehicle is really a wormhole, like a drop uplink. Who knows. There are always explanations that can be invented to explain game mechanics. Bio engineered super soldiers are probably ambidextrous. So they would have the option of pulling a side arm with the hand not holding the main weapon and hip firing very quickly. There could also be a quick clasp mechanism where a merc could clip and stow their main gun with one hand while pulling a side arm with the other and still aim down sights almost instantaneously. But my point is that there's a lot of stuff put in place to slow the pace of the game down. And if the game is meant to be one of painstaking and thoroughly considered decision making in moment to moment gun battles, should be consistent across the board. Should take more time to climb out of a tank. And if things continue in that direction, this will also be aGÇª anGÇª interesting sort of game to play. Myst 514?