Good points. I think CCP has more experience on the MMO side of skill requirements than the FPS side. The thing is new players will judge the ge first on the FPS side, and that's what we will experience on a daily basis.

Think about a game as simple as bowling. -áYou can remove most of the skill requirements for kids by dropping bumpers in the gutters. -áThe kids can roll balls down the lane and watch the pins drop. -áHeck, we could go on step further and build a ramp to guide the ball right to the pocket for a strike each time. -áYou just aim the ramp and a light comes on when it is positioned correctly. -áThen you place the ball on the ramp and let go. -áStrike! -áThat's the current hit-scan vs. bullet drop/travel time debate.

Here is the thing that I find frustrating. The game reacts more slowly to what I input using the controller than I can react to all of the different sensory information I am taking in while playing. And I am pretty slow.

This is the only part of your discourse that I have an issue with. I would agree if everyone in the game was locked in a stationary position such at the bowling example stipulates. We all know the pins don't move. But as players are free willed moving targets capable of taking cover, there's actually a bit of skill in lining up, and taking, the shot even if we're using hit scan.

I've been reading the various threads and thinking about what makes a game fun to play. -áSometimes I just want to blow stuff up and not work hard, but that kind of play pales pretty quickly due to lack of challenge. -áIt's just pushing buttons and watching pretty lights. -áPrecursor tanks provided just such fun. -áStrap on a tank and rampage. The thing is some folks got bored with that in the short time it lasted and voluntarily limited use to killing other tanks. -á

What brings me back to a game is a decent challenge. -áSome way to differentiate myself from others in the same role. -áThat's what I see in a lot of the heated debates here. -áThe pro-strafe crowd hated the idea of having their skill requirement tossed aside and the Precursor dropship pilots loved the flight physics because they required real player skill to operate. -áYou had people skilling into non-SP paying roles because those roles paid out in personal challenge. -áWhat's the ultimate low paying challenge? -áHow about bringing a knife to a gunfight? -áMaken Tosch has a blog post chronicling his quest to become DUST's first Ninja Nova Knifer. -áHe has to develop a myriad of skills and methods to make it work. -áIt is so interesting that a Dev commented that he wanted to highlight the story once the NDA was lifted. -áWhy? He recognizes that people are attracted to challenge.

Think about a game as simple as bowling. -áYou can remove most of the skill requirements for kids by dropping bumpers in the gutters. -áThe kids can roll balls down the lane and watch the pins drop. -áHeck, we could go on step further and build a ramp to guide the ball right to the pocket for a strike each time. -áYou just aim the ramp and a light comes on when it is positioned correctly. -áThen you place the ball on the ramp and let go. -áStrike! -áThat's the current hit-scan vs. bullet drop/travel time debate.

Kids might enjoy that, but how long would you play such a game? -áWould you brag to your friends about your perfect game? -áWould you join a league? Not likely. -áYou would want your player skill back first. -áSo what if I said, "OK, then I'll fill in all the holes on your ball so it's harder to throw a strike"?

That wouldn't do it, would it? -áDoing that would actually remove player skill at the same time it made it harder. -áThat's because you would have less control over the ball. -áEveryone would have a harder time, just the opposite of the bumper or ramp but still no fun. -áThat's the issue I see with the poor controller mechanics or the crappy LAV stick layout. -áIt makes it hard to apply the skill you do have which has the effect of leveling everything out on the poor side. -áNobody can do very well, though some can eventually adjust for the poor controls better than others.

What you would want is full control over the ball and the requirement to judge the slipperiness of the lane, the need to put the right spin on the ball, and the knowledge of where to aim to pick up a spare. -áAnyone can enjoy knocking down some pins with very little knowledge or skill, but those who are experienced can do much better.

The biggest complaint is being killed with no way to prevent it, such as poor spawns. -áNext up is being killed by an "Easy button". -áThat included tanks and snipers. -áWhile folks are still annoyed at being killed, they don't mind so much if it took some skill to do so. -áI would personally give props to the Ninja Knifer if he got me (that's not an invitation, mind you). -áThe bullet drop/travel time suggestion is an attempt to create a skill requirement for shooting. -áAs it is a broken run is an ineffective way to prevent a long range death. -áIn reality the sniper would have to guess your path, but with hit-scan all he has to do is wait for you to step into his reticle and pull the trigger. -áAbsent gun sway the only skill required is to predict the general direction of travel and notice when the light turns red.-á

For this to work all roles need a skill requirement or those that don't will become heavily populated. -áI don't think that reducing the SP payouts of low skill classes is a great way to balance it either, as that just breads a different frustration such as with sniping today.

CCP says that DUST will be a hard-core game, but it won't be if most of the difficulties are due to poor control mechanism or bugs rather than player skill requirements. -á

I believe every single battlefield role should have a player skill requirement.-áThat way we can all brag about our performance and not get worked up when someone manages to kill us. -áThink of skill requirements as a gift that will keep you comming back over the long run.

So, do you agree or disagree? -áIf you agree, where do you see that CCP got it right, and what additional opportunities do you see? -áIf you don't, why?

It's called latency. It's always there in continuously varying amounts in any internet game. It's inherent to the nature of the system. It takes time for the signal from your fire button to get to the PS3, then it takes time for the signal to travel to the server from the PS3, the server then takes time to process the shot, then it takes time for that result to come back to your PS3, then it takes time for the PS3 to process that information and show you the result. In all of these time issues, the biggest amount of time is in the to and from travel time between the servers and the PS3s. Many things can affect the latency such as line noise, how many people are putting load on the branch your line is connected to, etc. Things that are beyond your, and CCP's, control.

If you want nearly instant response, you'll need to stick to serial LAN connection (no internet) or single player PS3 native games.

It's called latency. It's always there in continuously varying amounts in any internet game. It's inherent to the nature of the system. It takes time for the signal from your fire button to get to the PS3, then it takes time for the signal to travel to the server from the PS3, the server then takes time to process the shot, then it takes time for that result to come back to your PS3, then it takes time for the PS3 to process that information and show you the result. In all of these time issues, the biggest amount of time is in the to and from travel time between the servers and the PS3s. Many things can affect the latency such as line noise, how many people are putting load on the branch your line is connected to, etc. Things that are beyond your, and CCP's, control.

If you want nearly instant response, you'll need to stick to serial LAN connection (no internet) or single player PS3 native games.

Not what I am talking about at all. Didn't mention shooting, or firing in my examples. I am well versed in the vagaries of latency.

Yes, the latency is frustrating and is most apparent in this beta when I am running toward an enemy or group of enemies to get in range and when I transition to firing my weapon the game sort of freezes for a second before picking back up again.

But the time it takes to switch out weapons is very slow, no matter the latency. It is a constant. As are turn speed and lateral movement speed. All of these aspects of character movement have built in ceilings or take a set amount of time (no matter what) that interrupts game flow and makes it feel slow and clunky. By the time I see clear and present danger, realize I need to reload or switch out my weapon for a back up, hit R2, duck for cover, flank the enemy, line up a shot, get back behind cover, turn and face 2 more players moving in on my position, line up a shot, revive a fallen team mate, nope, still waiting for the switch out weapon animation to complete...

Take Dark Souls, for example. The time it takes your character to switch out weapons is not instantaneous, but also not agonizingly slow. It does not change even when the lag is terrible while fighting another player online. When I press a button to switch out my weapon to a back up weapon the system responds in a consistent and rapid manner. And latency doesn't affect how quickly this takes place after I press a button and then move an analog stick, say, if I need to dodge an attack, or escape stunlock. It does affect how my input and animation and hit box interact with the other player's attacks, animations and hit box, and yes, with latency that interaction can get funky. But that is only to be expected.

Oddly enough, in DUST 514 there are some areas of gameplay where there are near immediate responses between controller and action in game. Mainly jumping in and out of an LAV, switching positions in a vehicle, moving from the driver seat to the gunner's seat in a dropship, Solo flying and gunning from a dropship is one thing a player can do that utilizes the gaming skills I would like to see more room for in DUST 514, and there is not really any sort of limit that a player can't pass beyond, or bumper in the bowling lane, so to speak, if you want to solo fly and gun from a dropship. How well you do is purely based on how well you can do.

The PS 3 is a very supple and responsive system, compared to say, Xbox, and Dust just doesn't make use of that.

+1 good read

I see what you're saying. I also get frustrated with the frame rate and packet drops. However, the weapon transition speed you're describing say from stowing an AR and switching to sidearm, or reversed, seem pretty good to me. The only time I've seen complete weapon switching as fast as what you're talking about, outside of a game, is when the wielder drops the weapon they're holding, rather than stowing it, and pulls the backup. I like the switch time. It forces one to evaluate whether the situation is conducive to the switch which is an entirely different skill in itself.

That the slow option makes you evaluate your choices could be a good thing. I could live with if. But we have a lot of slow options and not many quick options as infantry in gun battles.

Also, the game is not self consistent in the details. Why I brought up switching seats in vehicle. It makes no sense at all that players in "fast paced" gun battles should have to stop and think and evaluated if they should draw a side arm, re-load, or run away, if the game does not force that same kind of decision making on players getting in and out of LAVs, or switching seats in vehicles. But maybe each seat and the door to enter and exit a vehicle is really a wormhole, like a drop uplink. Who knows. There are always explanations that can be invented to explain game mechanics.

Bio engineered super soldiers are probably ambidextrous. So they would have the option of pulling a side arm with the hand not holding the main weapon and hip firing very quickly. There could also be a quick clasp mechanism where a merc could clip and stow their main gun with one hand while pulling a side arm with the other and still aim down sights almost instantaneously.

But my point is that there's a lot of stuff put in place to slow the pace of the game down. And if the game is meant to be one of painstaking and thoroughly considered decision making in moment to moment gun battles, should be consistent across the board. Should take more time to climb out of a tank.

And if things continue in that direction, this will also be aGǪ anGǪ interesting sort of game to play. Myst 514?

I believe every single battlefield role should have a player skill requirement.-áThat way we can all brag about our performance and not get worked up when someone manages to kill us. -áThink of skill requirements as a gift that will keep you comming back over the long run.