DUST Search - My Two Cents On Dust

Aighun wrote:

Xavier Hastings wrote:

What I'm saying is that if a Protoman and a Militiaman fight, and they both use the same moduals, there should be a fair fight.

I don't want fair fights. When I beat someone using a proto suit while I am in militia gear I want to feel like I totally bested an OP opponent. I want to fight people in proto suits that think they are getting some kind of advantage. I want to win those fights and at least in my own mind rub it in their faces. "Ha, take that proto suit person!"
Sadly, this will most likely will not happen. Unless you are Proto yourself, or maybe a tier below it. They will be too strong for anyone in Militia.

No, I do not want fair fights. But I want to win vs. proto suits and feel like I am overcoming great odds. Prevailing in the face of extreme danger. Not just because my opponent was completely incompetent at fitting modules, or just forgot modules entirely.
Above.

Also, your hypothetical is far fetched to the point of being irrelevant. Why should a prototype suit be exactly the same as a militia suit, other than the number of module slots PG and CPU? Why shouldn't I be able to fit a prototype module on my level one suit if I really work at min maxing just to be able to do just that? What about prototype modules that increase CPU or PG, should I not be able to fit those on a militia suit?
If you can fit Proto Moduals on a Militia Suit, by all means, be my guest.

Might as well say, "If a grilled cheese sandwich fought a fried peanut butter and jelly sandwich and they were both cooked in canola oil instead of butter, it should be a fair fight."
?

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Xavier Hastings ZionTCD Legacy Rising 243	Posted - 2012.10.25 22:08:00 - [1] - Quote Now, don't get me wrong, Dust is a great game, and hopefully will be so in the future. But, sadly, there are some complications: 1). Instant Hit Mechanics Now, as some of you may know, Dust 514 uses Hit Scan. If you do not know what that is, Hit Scan uses ~~ultra complex, universe bending~~ simple calculations to essentially make an invisible line that instantly hits whatever is in front of it. Of course, some game couple this with projectile tracking, where the attack itself is hitscan, but there is an animation of the bullet. More information at the always correct Wikipedia and the humorous TV Tropes. The Problem* Well, the problem is, it is unrealistic. Scrubs wrote: Balance. Moar Balance! Well, yes I know that, but it would not be that unbalanced if we used a more pure projectile model. A mix of balance and realism is a good sign for a healthy game. The Solution Let's say, for example, If a sniper had his scope on a target, but the target was running in a perpendicular line across his scope, and the sniper did not track him, chances realistically he would not hit him. But in Dust, he could. Now, acceptable breaks from reality are fine at times, but not blatantly ridiculous as this. Also, it would help the minority of people who actually track their targets, which you cannot do, in an Instant Hit Game. 2). The Great Divide Between Proto and Militia I'm sure you've seen it. People going 25/0 and are on the top of the leaderboards. How do they do it? Naive Gamer wrote: Skill. Well, partially, that is true. At least for other games... But no, this game gives you Proto Suits! In other words, hunks of metal blessed by Zeus, that make you immortal. Compare it to Militia Suits, which are compressed dirt. Now, exaggerations are present, I know. But the truth still remains. If you have Proto you are essentially God, and are always on top. The Solution Well, I'm no expert, but here is a suggestion: Make the Moduals matter more. Make it so more advanced suits only give PG and CPU upgrades. That will make it much more balanced, for a Militia Suit with the same moduals and equal chance, gear wise, against a Protoman. 3). ISK Transfer Let's go take your EVE Character, and dump his billions of ISK to your wallet. Sounds like a ~~great,~~ ~~terrible,~~ ~~and insane~~ not so wise idea. Now we get people with billions of ISK Protoing out/Advancing out/being snooty rich kids. The Solution I'll let the must intelligent minds rack their brains together to figure this one out. It'll take a long time, I know. So, comments and opinions below. Also tell me if I have my facts wrong, I try to be as accurate as possible.
Xavier Hastings ZionTCD Legacy Rising 243	Posted - 2012.10.25 22:31:00 - [2] - Quote No comments?
steadyhand amarr Imperfects Negative-Feedback 338	Posted - 2012.10.25 22:36:00 - [3] - Quote its an intelligent post....so boring to read so people moved on. add more street to it. or OMG CCP SUCKS and you will probably get more of a response :P
Cloudy Zan 107	Posted - 2012.10.25 22:38:00 - [4] - Quote Yeah, unfortunately you made this thread during alot of QQ so it probably washed away in the tears.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.25 22:41:00 - [5] - Quote Well, seems you are 3 builds late on your passage on proto suit. Even though the idea that you should just make everything the same (yes, sure, make the modules matter) is one I completely disagree with. Also there are any number of threads already about any of these topics. But good effort on the layout and creative use of quotes.
MItt R0mney Doomheim 58	Posted - 2012.10.25 22:41:00 - [6] - Quote Turning the weapons from hit scan to projectile currently isn't feasible.
Free Healing L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.25 22:52:00 - [7] - Quote I agree with some of the stuff you posted but i'm not inclined to agree that Militia and Proto-suits should be closer together. If they're closer together then what is the point of using a suit that's going to cost you an arm and a leg to be SLIGHTLY better than someone using a free suit? If i save up and shell out money to afford a Prototype suit i want to feel like it's doing a better job of protecting me AND earning it's worth. I'm not a fan of the whole reduced flat HP for armor and shield that most suits have at the moment. (or at least the Logistics suit i'm sure of) and making modules better wouldn't solve the problem imo because for one most poeple are going to just Buff their shields and armor to not die as quick anyway. Right now it's beta and the community ain't so large and i understand that a new or poor militia player going up against these big corporation squads like the Imperfects, GIC, STB, ZionTCD, and others is gonna feel like the game is cheating them. But the way i see it is that it should work more like an incentive. If i see one (or in this example) MANY people running around with GEK-38's and killing me with them i'm not going to say "Nerf the GEK,, it's too good..." because the GEK is a pretty expensive rifle and is doing for it's owners exactly what it should. When i saw everyone dropping me like a burning bag of poo using a GEK-38 Assault rifle on the Kill Feed I decided to go out and get one for myself and proceeded to say "HOLY CRAP!? 17,800 ISK?" I still bought 10 anyway and proceeded to basically lose them within a period of 3-4 matches where i didn't even cover a quarter of the cost. Did i get angry? nope. I decided i just wasn't ready to use a powerful weapon till i got more poweful defensive abilities and modules. Basically what i'm getting at is i don't want this to be a game where i get dropped just as quick using something that i paid an arm and leg for rather than something i could use for free. Also as i understand it balancing shouldn't be an issue unless the game is unplayable/untestable because the game at this stage of Beta still has many many functions that are still SOON TM.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 362	Posted - 2012.10.25 23:35:00 - [8] - Quote I'm going to respond to this after dinner, but I got one question...what is QQ? How did I miss this? I can't believe there's an acronym online that I don't know. This makes me feel old and sad...
Free Healing L.O.T.I.S. Legacy Rising 234	Posted - 2012.10.25 23:38:00 - [9] - Quote Altina McAlterson wrote: I'm going to respond to this after dinner, but I got one question...what is QQ? How did I miss this? I can't believe there's an acronym online that I don't know. This makes me feel old and sad... I could be wrong but as i under stood it the QQ thing is supposed to be an emoticon of sorts that represents tears, crying and/or whining.
Ima Leet Imperfects Negative-Feedback 321	Posted - 2012.10.25 23:57:00 - [10] - Quote Free Healing wrote: Altina McAlterson wrote: I'm going to respond to this after dinner, but I got one question...what is QQ? How did I miss this? I can't believe there's an acronym online that I don't know. This makes me feel old and sad... I could be wrong but as i under stood it the QQ thing is supposed to be an emoticon of sorts that represents tears, crying and/or whining. QQ is crying, just look at it, looks like eyes with tears coming out... you dont see it?

Ghost-33 ShootBreakStab 108	Posted - 2012.10.26 02:00:00 - [11] - Quote I though QQ came from playing early computer games where in order to quit the game you had to type quit or sometimes just q to exit the game. So QQ would be the old school form of rage quitting, as in mashing the q button. QQ Similar to getting all happy in the pants and trying to type "you just got owned" but realized in your super happy keyboard skills you misspelled owned and it came out pwned. Just think it could have been iwned.
D'Finn Rhedlyne Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 266	Posted - 2012.10.26 02:15:00 - [12] - Quote I'm sick of it now.... can't take anymore, I have had my fill of all the stupid posts. Get on with it... I know what's coming, as do the more mature (35+) gamers here. Nuff Sed!
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.10.26 03:54:00 - [13] - Quote I agree with Free Healing. Protogear SHOULD be scary. They SHOULD make a huge difference vs militia. Militia-standard-type2-advanced-type2advanced-Proto-type2proto. Each step shouldn't be too drastic. But militia vs type2proto? Gtfo militia scrub :P I also dislike the flattened HP, as most of an upgraded suits modules get spent giving me more HP... I know lots of people use damage mods, but I currently view them as an exploit, due to lag. You'll be dead by the time your Hp starts going down on your screen. Ghost33 is correct about QQ. I think it was one of the Warcraft series where QQ was auto quit. It's commonly used now as crying/whining/raging.
Altina McAlterson TRUE TEA BAGGERS 362	Posted - 2012.10.26 04:18:00 - [14] - Quote Ghost-33 wrote: I though QQ came from playing early computer games where in order to quit the game you had to type quit or sometimes just q to exit the game. So QQ would be the old school form of rage quitting, as in mashing the q button. QQ Similar to getting all happy in the pants and trying to type "you just got owned" but realized in your super happy keyboard skills you misspelled owned and it came out pwned. Just think it could have been iwned. Does roll off the tongue better than alt-f4ing. I remember when q was quit, those were the days when I played doom with a 4 button joystick and made fun of the kids that only had the 3 button stick.
Mister Hunt Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic 230	Posted - 2012.10.26 06:19:00 - [15] - Quote I think what the OP was saying about proto suits is that if you give them enough PG/CPU they can be very beastly, as they would be able to run Proto modules. Someone in a militia suit couldn't run those modules. Well, maybe one but then they would have to hit you with a stick as their weapon. Make the modules matter. I have seen people in Eve (an example, not pushing Eve on anyone) where if you look at their HP, it is low. But taking them down is entirely different matter. You see, they run mods on their ships that reduce incoming damage, make damage heal really fast, those types of things. That is what the protosuits should do here. You can hit me all you want, but my guy is going to absorb in his shields or armor, that sort of thing. And on a final note: Real men hull tank
Xavier Hastings ZionTCD Legacy Rising 243	Posted - 2012.10.26 20:57:00 - [16] - Quote MItt R0mney wrote: Turning the weapons from hit scan to projectile currently isn't feasible. I know. It probably won't happen, but it would be nice if it did. Mister Hunt wrote: I think what the OP was saying about proto suits is that if you give them enough PG/CPU they can be very beastly, as they would be able to run Proto modules. Someone in a militia suit couldn't run those modules. Well, maybe one but then they would have to hit you with a stick as their weapon. Make the modules matter. Exactly my point. You see, in a Militia, you won't be able to use Proto Moduals. You won't have enough CPU/PG. But in a Proto Suit, you will. But only if you have the money. What I'm saying is that if a Protoman and a Militiaman fight, and they both use the same moduals, there should be a fair fight.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.26 21:55:00 - [17] - Quote Mister Hunt wrote: I think what the OP was saying about proto suits is that if you give them enough PG/CPU they can be very beastly, as they would be able to run Proto modules. Someone in a militia suit couldn't run those modules. Well, maybe one but then they would have to hit you with a stick as their weapon. Make the modules matter. I have seen people in Eve (an example, not pushing Eve on anyone) where if you look at their HP, it is low. But taking them down is entirely different matter. You see, they run mods on their ships that reduce incoming damage, make damage heal really fast, those types of things. That is what the protosuits should do here. You can hit me all you want, but my guy is going to absorb in his shields or armor, that sort of thing. And on a final note: Real men hull tank It's already like this in DUST 514. Except there aren't currently shield hardener modules etc. for infantry. I'll double check suit stats in a few and eat crow if not. But that entire passage is moot because the OP is suggesting that CCP change the game so that it is already like it is now. Which is boring, to me. Unless they add more of these modules in from EVE that you mentioned. In Replication you really knew when you had run into a proto suit wearing player, and those fights were more edge of your seat. And the payout was also a lot more gratifying (not just because of the accelerated ISK gains. Which I will not miss) at the end of the match. Now it is like, why bother skilling into dropsuits? The thing to do in this build is see how much gear you can possibly cram onto a level 1 suit. The benefit you get from being able to fit a scant few more modules isn't that much of an incentive to fight in a really expensive suit. Unless you are fighting in a Corp battle. And because you don't get a payout based on value of gear destroyed for those fights it also removes that risk and reward dynamic from the entire game economy as well. Over the long haul, yes, people, in a year or so at least, will eventually and inevitably be skilling into high level suits if they keep playing. But having more hp per suit level doesn't really detract from the game in any way that I can see. Even if the added hit points prove to have a merely psychological appeal (more hit points! I am totally upgrading!) and with new and better modules the benefit of a high level suit is in how much stuff you can fit.
lordjanuz Norwegian Dust514 Corporation 88	Posted - 2012.10.26 22:00:00 - [18] - Quote 3). ISK Transfer Let's go take your EVE Character, and dump his billions of ISK to your wallet. Sounds like a ~~great,~~ ~~terrible,~~ ~~and insane~~ not so wise idea. Now we get people with billions of ISK Protoing out/Advancing out/being snooty rich kids. This will come soon or later, ISK will flow. And one good thing about that is that it can bring surprises to the game. We could get a alliance suddenly rise and bring chaos. Its a sandbox game all could/should happend. Isk don make you better, big alliances with endless isk in wallet have vanished in EVE , when all is open anything could happend. I dont see the problem at all.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.26 22:10:00 - [19] - Quote Xavier Hastings wrote: What I'm saying is that if a Protoman and a Militiaman fight, and they both use the same moduals, there should be a fair fight. I don't want fair fights. When I beat someone using a proto suit while I am in militia gear I want to feel like I totally bested an OP opponent. I want to fight people in proto suits that think they are getting some kind of advantage. I want to win those fights and at least in my own mind rub it in their faces. "Ha, take that proto suit person!" No, I do not want fair fights. But I want to win vs. proto suits and feel like I am overcoming great odds. Prevailing in the face of extreme danger. Not just because my opponent was completely incompetent at fitting modules, or just forgot modules entirely. Also, your hypothetical is far fetched to the point of being irrelevant. Why should a prototype suit be exactly the same as a militia suit, other than the number of module slots PG and CPU? WHy shouldn't I be able to fit a prototype module on my level one suit if I really work at min maxing just to be able to do just that? What about prototype modules that increase CPU or PG, should I not be able to fit those on a militia suit? Might as well say, "If a grilled cheese sandwich fought a fried peanut butter and jelly sandwich and they were both cooked in canola oil instead of butter, it should be a fair fight."
Xavier Hastings ZionTCD Legacy Rising 243	Posted - 2012.10.26 22:59:00 - [20] - Quote Aighun wrote: Xavier Hastings wrote: What I'm saying is that if a Protoman and a Militiaman fight, and they both use the same moduals, there should be a fair fight. I don't want fair fights. When I beat someone using a proto suit while I am in militia gear I want to feel like I totally bested an OP opponent. I want to fight people in proto suits that think they are getting some kind of advantage. I want to win those fights and at least in my own mind rub it in their faces. "Ha, take that proto suit person!" Sadly, this will most likely will not happen. Unless you are Proto yourself, or maybe a tier below it. They will be too strong for anyone in Militia. No, I do not want fair fights. But I want to win vs. proto suits and feel like I am overcoming great odds. Prevailing in the face of extreme danger. Not just because my opponent was completely incompetent at fitting modules, or just forgot modules entirely. Above. Also, your hypothetical is far fetched to the point of being irrelevant. Why should a prototype suit be exactly the same as a militia suit, other than the number of module slots PG and CPU? Why shouldn't I be able to fit a prototype module on my level one suit if I really work at min maxing just to be able to do just that? What about prototype modules that increase CPU or PG, should I not be able to fit those on a militia suit? If you can fit Proto Moduals on a Militia Suit, by all means, be my guest. Might as well say, "If a grilled cheese sandwich fought a fried peanut butter and jelly sandwich and they were both cooked in canola oil instead of butter, it should be a fair fight." ? Also: Once this game progresses, more and more people that have been playing for a while will most likely be more advanced then New People, Skill Cap or not. So, why should I keep playing if I keep being mowed down every twenty seconds by someone in a better suit then I? I might even be better at FPS then he, but he has the better suit, so he wins. So I leave, minimizing the amount of players playing this game and not buying the precious AUR that CCP most certainly wants me to do.

Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.26 23:47:00 - [21] - Quote Xavier Hastings wrote: Also: Once this game progresses, more and more people that have been playing for a while will most likely be more advanced then New People, Skill Cap or not. So, why should I keep playing if I keep being mowed down every twenty seconds by someone in a better suit then I? I might even be better at FPS then he, but he has the better suit, so he wins. So I leave, minimizing the amount of players playing this game and not buying the precious AUR that CCP most certainly wants me to do. As to this, it is a long standing fallacy that I have argued against since I got into the beta. 1. Getting killed by OP vets does not necessarily discourage new players. 2. The way things look now, OP vets and new players will never meet each other on the field of battle. But even if they did I would not have a problem with that, and I do not think it would result in another hypothetical: getting mowed down every twenty seconds. The amount of work you would have to put into making a dedicated low level noob stomper character that only spent time in High Sec griefing new players would just not lead to satisfaction for any but the most dedicated of ganking trolls. And that is without the algorithm that will perform matchmaking. There really just wouldn't enough of an incentive to do that sort of thing if the risk vs. reward was properly structured. Also, as this is a multiplayer game, you are never alone. Even as a new player that doesn't know anyone in game. So now you are assuming that this guy in a better suit is actually a team of guys that does nothing but hang out in high sec noob stomping. You are advocating for some kind of apocalypse inoculation that flattens the game and makes it less interesting to some players in order to cater to this imaginary "New People" player (that, by the way, sounds like the most fickle, please hold my hand cry baby in gaming) based entirely on a made up scenario that the evidence doesn't even suggest will be possible. Finally: Assault Type-1: shield 125 HP, armor 175 HP Assault vk.0: shield 125 HP, armor 175 HP It has already happened. I do not have to eat crow. As I pointed out earlier, that entire portion of your post is moot and not even relevant to the current build. The folks that got all weak in the knees at the though of, gasp! more HP on a higher level dropsuit already won out over folks like me that wanted steeper differences between levels of gear. Or the devs were one step ahead of your post a few months ago and already wanted to make higher tier dropsuits useful mainly because you could use them to fit more stuff. I really do believe that games suck today because they cater to the lowest common denominator and try to make up for lack of any sort of challenge with huge advertising budgets. More base HP for higher level suits was one challenge I was looking forward to working to overcome with this game but it doesn't look like I will get mowed down more than every 40 seconds or so. Ah well. Can't win em all.
Xavier Hastings ZionTCD Legacy Rising 243	Posted - 2012.10.27 00:31:00 - [22] - Quote They already did that? Well, I suppose I was wrong then.
Aighun Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 666	Posted - 2012.10.27 00:35:00 - [23] - Quote Xavier Hastings wrote: They already did that? Well, I suppose I was wrong then. Well, apologies if I overstated my case. I take my forum battles very seriously. But yes, you and CCP are on the same page. Look through all the drop suit stats in the market and you'll see they have already by and large implemented your idea.
Xavier Hastings ZionTCD Legacy Rising 243	Posted - 2012.10.27 00:56:00 - [24] - Quote Aighun wrote: Xavier Hastings wrote: They already did that? Well, I suppose I was wrong then. Well, apologies if I overstated my case. I take my forum battles very seriously. But yes, you and CCP are on the same page. Look through all the drop suit stats in the market and you'll see they have already by and large implemented your idea. Oh, sorry about that, then. I should research more next time.


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