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Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 21:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Vehicle Feedback
Issues:
Armor vs Shields
Lets begin with the armor vs shield tank problem. Currently armor in DUST gets no love. In fact i'd go as far as saying armor is hated by CCP.
Why? Let me explain. 1st off in this recent build CCP added shield hardeners, now common sense would entail balance wise if you're gonna add an active 30% resist module you would give both sets the same options. This isnt the case in DUST, there are only shield hardeners atm which automatically gives shield tanks a head to head advantage. Now some of you might say GÇ£well 10 seconds active resists isnt muchGÇ¥ ohhhh but it is in a tank fight...means im doin 30% less damage and with the current trend being missile tanks (will get to the missile issue later) explosive damage is more effective vs armor.
So not only do u have a 30% resist advantage u also have a turret that does more damage vs armor. Armor tanks dont have that advantage.
Solution: Give us armor hardeners.
FREE Swarms
The starter fit free swarm launchers/militia swarms. These need to be looked at. Im sorry but they do. When you think about it in theory if I brought out my armor tank the entire enemy team can just swap to these FREE 0 ISK starter fits and do 1200+ damage since explosive damage is more vs armor. Is this fair? no. At least with forge guns people need to train some skills first. Now im not sayin remove militia swarms/anti armor starter fit in fact im sayin tone down the damage to 3 rockets so it does 900 damage instead of 1200. I know newbies need to have some sort of anti-armor capabilities but it should not be good enough to have just a couple people be able to drop a madrugar+ easy.
2md problem with swarms and tbh this is one of my main problem with these things. Its stupid how the tracking vs tanks are atm and yet these things tracking vs derpships are soo broken. Cover makes little sense when u are a tanker vs swarms as ive seen swarms make 90 degree turns and STILL hit me when ive already dipped behind cover. That is broken. Not ifs or buts its broken especially considering tank speed got nerfed again and armor is slow as **** since we need to have plates on which slow you down even more. Fix the swarm tracking. Swarms should take the fastest route to hit a target not follow the exact path a vehicle takes, its this very reason why derpships cant be hit and why they bend around corners vs tanks.
Missile Turrets
This is another problem. Missiles are too good still imho. They suit every purpose hence you find solo tankers with missiles. They are good at all ranges. Short or Long with little drawback and with missiles doing extra damage to armor tanks it creates a problem when a tank has both short and long range capabilities vs another tank all while still being effective vs infantry. It makes the other turrets useless. Missiles need a defined role.
I use blasters primarily because when I do get my surya it gets a bonus to blasters. Sargaris' get a bonus to missiles.....why even bother with a Surya when u can just get a shield tanked Sargaris that not only has a 30% active shield hardener mod but also has u beat at both close and long range?
Conclusion
Armor vs Shield is a serious problem that CCP needs to get right. The one thing armor had goin for it which was remote reps got nerfed to ****. When people cried how tanks were OP CCP should look at the data before applying nerfs to everything and realise that it was shield tanks back then that was OP not armor and once again you find most people using shield tanks and people crying for more nerfs when armor is and continues to be ****.
Do I think tanks currently are OP? No. I do however think there is a big imbalance between shield and armor tanks and has been for a long while now hence the majority of tankers are shield. Hell even look at derpships? Do u see gallente derpships as much as caldari? Nope. Once again...shields vs armor. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 21:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote: Solution: Give us armor hardeners.
We're supposed to be getting them. I think Wolfman said there was a bug with them and they weren't able to make it into this build. |
Vermaak Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
385
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 21:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
We need an anti shield tank light weapon with a militia version T least |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 21:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
One bonus for armor is that the dropships can fit the Afterburner propulsion module while the shield ships cannot.
The module comes with a PG cost of 1.64 X the base max PG of a Myron. With two 25% PG upgrade modules and an additional 15% from skills you are still short due to stacking penalties. |
Grezkev
The Red Guards
100
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Posted - 2012.10.23 21:28:00 -
[5] - Quote
I concur.
+1 Good sir. |
Eternal Technique
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
281
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 21:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
+1
Missiles are way too ridiculous atm. Like Mavado said they are good at all ranges and are equally effective vs vehicles and infantry. Not to mention the fact that when they hit infantry u get spun around by them. This is by far the most ******** mechanic in the game and needs to be removed imo. But that is another issue. Missiles have no downside, and considering caldari tanks get a bonus to their damage, caldari missile tanks are clearly the best tanks atm.
Not to mention the issue of slot layouts, where almost all the high slot modules are shield modules making it difficult for armor tanks to use all their slots effectively. On the other hand shield tanks can fill their low slots with nanofibers, damage mods, tracking enhancers, powergrid and cpu upgrades,power diagnostic systems (which boosts shields), and overdrives. All without sacrificing any ehp. The only useful high slot mods for armor tanks atm are damage controls (which are equally useful on shield tanks) and maybe an overdrive injector (tbh only sort of useful). This means there are a lot more options for good fittings on shield tanks. Armor tanks need some love here.
Also, lets take a look at grenades. While flux nades work against shield tanks and are a nice addition, lets compare them to AV nades. AV nades do explosive damage and thus hurt armor tanks more. Also, you can lay down an AV minefield that cannot be taken out by any means other than driving a vehicle over them. Finally it is impossible to kill a shield tank with flux nades alone, as you will do no armor damage. Also more people use AV nades. Again this gives another advantage to using shield tanks.
One idea to balance the two tank types would be taking another look at the remote reps for armor. Give them a boost that would allow two armor tanks working together be more effective than running around solo. This would make shield tanks better solo vehicles and armor tanks better for people who want to be a vehicle team, so to speak.
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Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 04:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
fully agree with eternal shield tanks just have alot more viable fitting options available to them which makes them all round better tanks to skill into.
Reason i skilled into armor tanks last build was to try the remote reps....now they nerfed the **** outta it which seems to be a running theme with CCP tbh....extreme unwarranted nerfs dont think anyone seriously complained about RRs anyway because from what i heard the range u had to be at to RR was way too close and the lock on mechanism wasnt workin too well |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.10.24 04:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote: dont think anyone seriously complained about RRs anyway because from what i heard the range u had to be at to RR was way too close and the lock on mechanism wasnt workin too well
Oh they were pretty broken. Yeah range sucked, but if you got them on someone, you had a god mode vehicle, because their cooldown was negligible, you could triple rep someone and have something like 1000 hp/s heals going practically 100% of the time with no end. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 13:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Mavado V Noriega wrote: dont think anyone seriously complained about RRs anyway because from what i heard the range u had to be at to RR was way too close and the lock on mechanism wasnt workin too well Oh they were pretty broken. Yeah range sucked, but if you got them on someone, you had a god mode vehicle, because their cooldown was negligible, you could triple rep someone and have something like 1000 hp/s heals going practically 100% of the time with no end.
yea cooldown time was a bit rediculous but now its useless 60 sec cooldown? thats 2x more than the large rep
if ccp intends to keep shield tanks as the OP wtf pwn everything solo tanks with lolmissiles then armor needs something just as good
id personally like to see RRs at a cooldown of 15secs. cant hurt to try, 60 is too much when RRs are happening ppl should know to primary the logistics vehicle thats common sense |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 13:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:Vehicle Feedback
Issues:
Armor vs Shields
Lets begin with the armor vs shield tank problem. Currently armor in DUST gets no love. In fact i'd go as far as saying armor is hated by CCP.
Why? Let me explain. 1st off in this recent build CCP added shield hardeners, now common sense would entail balance wise if you're gonna add an active 30% resist module you would give both sets the same options. This isnt the case in DUST, there are only shield hardeners atm which automatically gives shield tanks a head to head advantage. Now some of you might say GÇ£well 10 seconds active resists isnt muchGÇ¥ ohhhh but it is in a tank fight...means im doin 30% less damage and with the current trend being missile tanks (will get to the missile issue later) explosive damage is more effective vs armor.
So not only do u have a 30% resist advantage u also have a turret that does more damage vs armor. Armor tanks dont have that advantage.
Solution: Give us armor hardeners.
FREE Swarms
The starter fit free swarm launchers/militia swarms. These need to be looked at. Im sorry but they do. When you think about it in theory if I brought out my armor tank the entire enemy team can just swap to these FREE 0 ISK starter fits and do 1200+ damage since explosive damage is more vs armor. Is this fair? no. At least with forge guns people need to train some skills first. Now im not sayin remove militia swarms/anti armor starter fit in fact im sayin tone down the damage to 3 rockets so it does 900 damage instead of 1200. I know newbies need to have some sort of anti-armor capabilities but it should not be good enough to have just a couple people be able to drop a madrugar+ easy.
2md problem with swarms and tbh this is one of my main problem with these things. Its stupid how the tracking vs tanks are atm and yet these things tracking vs derpships are soo broken. Cover makes little sense when u are a tanker vs swarms as ive seen swarms make 90 degree turns and STILL hit me when ive already dipped behind cover. That is broken. Not ifs or buts its broken especially considering tank speed got nerfed again and armor is slow as **** since we need to have plates on which slow you down even more. Fix the swarm tracking. Swarms should take the fastest route to hit a target not follow the exact path a vehicle takes, its this very reason why derpships cant be hit and why they bend around corners vs tanks.
Missile Turrets
This is another problem. Missiles are too good still imho. They suit every purpose hence you find solo tankers with missiles. They are good at all ranges. Short or Long with little drawback and with missiles doing extra damage to armor tanks it creates a problem when a tank has both short and long range capabilities vs another tank all while still being effective vs infantry. It makes the other turrets useless. Missiles need a defined role.
I use blasters primarily because when I do get my surya it gets a bonus to blasters. Sargaris' get a bonus to missiles.....why even bother with a Surya when u can just get a shield tanked Sargaris that not only has a 30% active shield hardener mod but also has u beat at both close and long range?
Conclusion
Armor vs Shield is a serious problem that CCP needs to get right. The one thing armor had goin for it which was remote reps got nerfed to ****. When people cried how tanks were OP CCP should look at the data before applying nerfs to everything and realise that it was shield tanks back then that was OP not armor and once again you find most people using shield tanks and people crying for more nerfs when armor is and continues to be ****.
Do I think tanks currently are OP? No. I do however think there is a big imbalance between shield and armor tanks and has been for a long while now hence the majority of tankers are shield. Hell even look at derpships? Do u see gallente derpships as much as caldari? Nope. Once again...shields vs armor.
Infantry also has to kinda problem. Shield is way more interesting through skills and modules. And also available slots on most dropsuits. But I see the problem is way more important regarding vehicles.
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Sentient Archon
Red Star.
690
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Posted - 2012.11.02 13:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote: Solution: Give us armor hardeners.
+1 for this. Lack of armor hardners is why I moved from a Armor tank to a Shield Tank.
Mavado V Noriega wrote:
Missile Turrets
This is another problem. Missiles are too good still imho. They suit every purpose hence you find solo tankers with missiles. They are good at all ranges. Short or Long with little drawback and with missiles doing extra damage to armor tanks it creates a problem when a tank has both short and long range capabilities vs another tank all while still being effective vs infantry. It makes the other turrets useless. Missiles need a defined role.
I use blasters primarily because when I do get my surya it gets a bonus to blasters. Sargaris' get a bonus to missiles.....why even bother with a Surya when u can just get a shield tanked Sargaris that not only has a 30% active shield hardener mod but also has u beat at both close and long range?
Missile turrets are absolutely ridiculous in this build. In all my games where I pulled out my gunlogi I have got 15+ kills just sitting like a little ***** in my gunlogi sniping people across that map. Nothing could touch me. I shouldnt be able to do that and hence missile range needs to be brought down. It is being discussed here. |
Reimus Klinsman
BetaMax.
320
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 14:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Don't forget infantry that armor tank. I feel all alone down here... Cold.... help me.. heeeeeeellllp |
Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
169
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 15:12:00 -
[13] - Quote
Fun Fact: Large missiles can blow up installations in one burst.
Anyways, I went to shield tank mainly because it has far better maneuverability and speed. Fitting prices hurt but I had to go for shields because everyone had quick access to SL and melted my Madrugars. The few good things I can say about the Surya is that the armor reps can restore all your armor making enemy blasters useless and it's colossal armor HP can help you survive some encounters. Unfortunately, it's too slow and with so many players using swarms your armor will get torn apart. |
Kleanur Guy
SyNergy Gaming
154
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 15:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Reimus Klinsman wrote:Don't forget infantry that armor tank. I feel all alone down here... Cold.... help me.. heeeeeeellllp
Oh yeah, any attempt at armor tanking as infantry and you will move like a snail. |
Alldin Kan
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
169
|
Posted - 2012.11.02 15:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Kleanur Guy wrote:Reimus Klinsman wrote:Don't forget infantry that armor tank. I feel all alone down here... Cold.... help me.. heeeeeeellllp Oh yeah, any attempt at armor tanking as infantry and you will move like a snail.
Try adding 2 complex Armor plates on a Armor Heavy, you'll regret it unless you have a logi on your side. xD |
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