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Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2012.10.16 21:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
If you want critical damage effects, add a hull health. Otherwise remove this pointless mechanic. The only thing it achieves is letting players who are not good enough to do enough damage still get a kill. It also deletes an entire fitting option of armor buffer. It just doesn't work as is except to award cheap kills. |
Theos Bell
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
5
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Posted - 2012.10.16 22:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Noc - How does it delete (by which I assume you mean "make suboptimal") an armor buff fitting? |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
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Posted - 2012.10.16 22:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
I see it this way: It punishes someone for barely surviving an encounter.
I do not support such a mechanic.
If they refuse to take it out, it needs to be present on installations, the MCC and infantry as well so everyone is equally punished. |
Governor Odius
Doomheim
177
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Posted - 2012.10.16 22:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Because if you armor tank you MUST have a rep or else you'll end up burning to death once you take any non-trivial amount of damage.
Which one could argue isn't entirely true. The nature of armor rep makes some sort of repair necessary, regardless of the burning armor mechanic. Thus the mechanic merely adds a level of urgency to what was already true. |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.10.16 22:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
I agree with Noc. It's one of the many stupid advantages shields have over armor with no real equivalent drawback.
Shield has boosters, Armor has reppers Shield has resist modules, Armor has active plates Shield has extenders(no weaknesses), Armor has plating(which slows you)...
but...
Shield has active resistance modules, armor has nothing. Shield doesn't have any weaknesses when it begins to fail(like the leak-through damage in EVE), Armor begins to burn and take damage. Shield resists all current forms of AV weaponry naturally, Armor doesn't. Running out of shield is no big, hide behind a mountain for a few moments, maybe wait for the boosters to cool down. Run low on armor? BAIL!
We need a damn structure level for vehicles, at the very least... and more armor mods and shield weaknesses, at the very most. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
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Posted - 2012.10.16 22:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
there is an easy fix. fit an armor rep module.
Shield>armor but if you don't carry something that can rep armor you will burn if you let your shield drop. |
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
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Posted - 2012.10.16 23:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
This has actually costs me a few kills, asI've had vehicles burn up before I can get that last shot in, and then it just shows that the occupants "Died" and no points or isk is awarded. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.10.16 23:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:I see it this way: It punishes someone for barely surviving an encounter.
I do not support such a mechanic.
If they refuse to take it out, it needs to be present on installations, the MCC and infantry as well so everyone is equally punished.
Agreed, stupid mechanic, and punishes unevenly. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
Necrodermis wrote:there is an easy fix. fit an armor rep module.
Shield>armor but if you don't carry something that can rep armor you will burn if you let your shield drop.
When there are two options for defense Armor or Shield. Having one regenerate naturally on it's own and the other burn down on its own unless you add an extra module to counter the burn effect then functionally there's only one effective option. And pity the poor new player who doesn't know any better an invests his limited skill points and ISK in the wrong one.
The two types of tanking should provide equal levels of protective value (albeit in differing specialized situations).
I agree with the OP, something needs to be changed. |
angelarch
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
93
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Posted - 2012.10.17 05:59:00 -
[10] - Quote
Cross Atu wrote:Necrodermis wrote:there is an easy fix. fit an armor rep module.
Shield>armor but if you don't carry something that can rep armor you will burn if you let your shield drop. When there are two options for defense Armor or Shield. Having one regenerate naturally on it's own and the other burn down on its own unless you add an extra module to counter the burn effect then functionally there's only one effective option. And pity the poor new player who doesn't know any better an invests his limited skill points and ISK in the wrong one. The two types of tanking should provide equal levels of protective value (albeit in differing specialized situations). I agree with the OP, something needs to be changed.
just suggesting-- if you had a suit type with many more low slots to fit armor reps and armor resist, and very few high slots, then armor tanks could be better on that suit regardless, combining the passive shield regen with active armor regen.
The number and type of slots [and natural resists] usually helped dictate whether a shield or armor tank was better for something from an eve standpoint-- but then it was also much more complicated than just that of course lol.
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Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
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Posted - 2012.10.17 06:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Agreed, stupid mechanic, and punishes unevenly.
you don't have to be inside when it burns.
the only thing it punishes is ignorance. vehicles are death machines and after they been hit hundreds of times by rockets and other things it heats up and starts burning. of course this is after it loses a huge chunk of the armor and by that point it might as well be dead.
or you could run away like all the other pilots and rep before that time comes |
Zero Harpuia
Maverick Conflict Solutions
422
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Posted - 2012.10.17 06:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Necrodermis wrote:KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf wrote: Agreed, stupid mechanic, and punishes unevenly.
you don't have to be inside when it burns. the only thing it punishes is ignorance. vehicles are death machines and after they been hit hundreds of times by rockets and other things it heats up and starts burning. of course this is after it loses a huge chunk of the armor and by that point it might as well be dead. or you could run away like all the other pilots and rep before that time comes
The problem is that you aren't punished at all for letting you shields dip below fifty percent, while you are put into fight-or-flight when your armor still has a good amount left to it.
Also, 'you don't have to be inside it when it burns'?
Put your money where your mouth is, literally. Let me see you ditch that 2mil Mudrugar or Surya because it started to burn. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
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Posted - 2012.10.17 06:58:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote: The problem is that you aren't punished at all for letting you shields dip below fifty percent, while you are put into fight-or-flight when your armor still has a good amount left to it.
Also, 'you don't have to be inside it when it burns'?
Put your money where your mouth is, literally. Let me see you ditch that 2mil Mudrugar or Surya because it started to burn.
i don't have to put my money where my mouth is because i know the risk of losing vehicles is no where near worth the rewards.
the only thing that it causes pain for is the shield tankers, because once they lose their shield and portion of their armor they start to burn. even after their shield returns they are still on fire.
that is the price they get for being shield tankers. they don't have to suffer the negative movement and better bonuses. shield tanking with huge amount of shield is safer but if the shield is down and they manage to burn. because they took the easier route they will eventually lose the ship/tank/whatever.
armor tanks don't get that luxury because once they lose their armor they are done. it also takes longer time for them to burn and thus giving them a chance to hit their armor rep and recover. |
Laurent Cazaderon
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
1155
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Posted - 2012.10.17 07:49:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'm no HAV expert but it just confirms that overall, Shield is way superior to Armor in Dust 514 no matter if you're infantry or vehicle. The idioticly high shield regen compared to the armor one is enough in comparing both.
Also, skill speaking, you find the same skill for both types that allows you to get +25% from base shield\armor HP. But, shield has a +25% skill for natural regen ! When armor has a +5% skill for armor reps only this skill is barely usefull on 2,3 and 5HP regen per second.
Some will argue there's an armor rep gun for logistics. But who will choose a dependant defense against an independant one ? |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
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Posted - 2012.10.17 08:08:00 -
[15] - Quote
Laurent Cazaderon wrote:I'm no HAV expert but it just confirms that overall, Shield is way superior to Armor in Dust 514 no matter if you're infantry or vehicle. The idioticly high shield regen compared to the armor one is enough in comparing both.
Also, skill speaking, you find the same skill for both types that allows you to get +25% from base shield\armor HP. But, shield has a +25% skill for natural regen ! When armor has a +5% skill for armor reps only this skill is barely usefull on 2,3 and 5HP regen per second.
Some will argue there's an armor rep gun for logistics. But who will choose a dependant defense against an independant one ?
that is something i feel that the burning is just a type of balance. if a shield repper were to start taking armor damage and manage to get away and he replenished his shield it doesn't matter how much armor is left. with burning he takes armor damage and has a percent to catch fire or when his armor reaches a certain point and he manages to get away by the skin of his teeth it's already too late. the enemies already pumped tons of damage just to take down his shield and one more barrage would finish the job. but because he is on fire and he didn't put on an armor rep it's already too late for him.
his vehicle is faster and more durable than an armor tank and has another layer to get out of dodge. if he takes too much damage he is going to burn. |
Mobius Kaethis
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
306
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Posted - 2012.10.17 12:34:00 -
[16] - Quote
I can see why many of you are frustrated with this mechanic but with the absence of structure currently in the game (and CCP's unending quest for an explainable sort of realism) I think it would be really tough for CCP to justify the vehicles not lighting on fire at some point and burning themselves to the ground. This is how they are choosing to simulate the vehicles fuel and other consumables being lit on fire. You can't just take huge amounts of damage with zero consequence to the vehicle after all.
I'd actually like them to add in a way to damage modules and turrets so that they will stop functioning prior to the whole sale destruction of the vehicle (if targeted specifically that is). Pending that CCP seems to be using the burning vehicle as an way to demonstrate this kind of massive subsystem damage. Its like a fire suppression subsystem has been damaged allowing additional shots to damage fuel and ammo systems.
All of you vehicle lovers out there had just better hope that CCP doesn't ever decide to go with a much more detailed damage model for vehicles. Imagine your main turret being destroyed (thus neutering your tank) or your ammo exploding. If this is the alternative to burning armor then I am sure you would rather have the simple to fix (by equipping a repair gun) burning armor stand in.
Please excuse my rambling, it is very early and hard for me to put together a well organized argument. I'll check back in and edit this in the afternoon when I hopefully will be more aware of my phrasing, sentence fluency, argument structure. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 16:16:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:[FEEDBACK] Burning armor and damage Update: The threshold when armor begins to burn and take damage has been lowered. Expect future updates of this mechanic to include the use of damage control module to reduce the burn damage.
Are you freaking kidding me? This mechanic just needs to go, not be lessened and require sacrificing a module slot to combat (and not even prevent, it's still apparently going to happen even with the module since it's just reducing the effect?). It doesn't matter how much damage the fire does, the fact that the fire damage is there is what creates problems.
There is no reason for the armor to be burning like that. Why is my armor flammable? Why isn't infantry armor flammable as well? Why should I be punished for barely surviving? Why don't you just give me less base HP if you think my effective HP should be lower?
Seriously, just remove it. Just because other games have that mechanic doesn't mean we need to as well. Don't copy bad ideas for the sake of being like other games, especially when we have actual costs to our vehicles and those other games don't. |
Brush Master
HavoK Core
163
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Posted - 2012.10.23 17:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Having flown both types of ships, I think Armor buffs should offer some natural resistance to burning. Right now it does hurt Gallente more but I think their desire was to add a benefit to going Gallente. Shield tanking is great but if you get broke and somehow survive with a little armor, chances are you will burn to death unless you have an armor rep.
Like others have said, I think it would be better to just remove the burning effect and deal more critical damage on Caldari vehicles once shields are down. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
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Posted - 2012.10.23 17:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote: Are you freaking kidding me? This mechanic just needs to go, not be lessened and require sacrificing a module slot to combat (and not even prevent, it's still apparently going to happen even with the module since it's just reducing the effect?). It doesn't matter how much damage the fire does, the fact that the fire damage is there is what creates problems.
There is no reason for the armor to be burning like that. Why is my armor flammable? Why isn't infantry armor flammable as well? Why should I be punished for barely surviving? Why don't you just give me less base HP if you think my effective HP should be lower?
Seriously, just remove it. Just because other games have that mechanic doesn't mean we need to as well. Don't copy bad ideas for the sake of being like other games, especially when we have actual costs to our vehicles and those other games don't.
you sound like a child.
you are being punished because you don't take the module to repair your armor. you are also being punished because you allowed yourself to drop below the threshold. run away like the coward you are sooner instead of the last second. |
Tiel Syysch
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
634
|
Posted - 2012.10.23 17:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Necrodermis wrote:Tiel Syysch wrote: Are you freaking kidding me? This mechanic just needs to go, not be lessened and require sacrificing a module slot to combat (and not even prevent, it's still apparently going to happen even with the module since it's just reducing the effect?). It doesn't matter how much damage the fire does, the fact that the fire damage is there is what creates problems.
There is no reason for the armor to be burning like that. Why is my armor flammable? Why isn't infantry armor flammable as well? Why should I be punished for barely surviving? Why don't you just give me less base HP if you think my effective HP should be lower?
Seriously, just remove it. Just because other games have that mechanic doesn't mean we need to as well. Don't copy bad ideas for the sake of being like other games, especially when we have actual costs to our vehicles and those other games don't.
you sound like a child. you are being punished because you don't take the module to repair your armor. you are also being punished because you allowed yourself to drop below the threshold. run away like the coward you are sooner instead of the last second.
Why does every vehicle need to fit an armor repair to survive? You've just weakened all but active armor fits by eating up that module slot and fitting space.
Why do people need to be punished for dropping below an arbitrary threshold? Why can't people be punished for not dealing enough damage to finish off the vehicle? It works that way with infantry. If 2 tanks go at it, and one kills the other and barely survives, it should also die? It makes no sense.
Not sure what's sounding like a child to you, but feel free to keep insulting people for no reason. It doesn't make your position any stronger. |
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Villanor Aquarius
Shattered Ascension
79
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Posted - 2012.10.23 18:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
The two tanks work like this in EVE and hopefully that is how it will work here; Armor can get you a lot of hitpoints very easily. Repairs are slow but hp is high and resists can get very high. Shield has very high recharge but lower resists and lower hp amounts.
On dropsuits this definitely works as most guns do more shield damage and the flux grenade just wipes out shields. If you are an armor tank with no rep or nobody to rep you that is just foolish.
For shields you don't need external reps but your tank is always weaker just more replenishable. I like that direction and I'm glad it seems dust is going for that too but they still need to balance and tweak things. But really who isn't using a repper or external rep?
I would like to see much lower amount per cycle passive armor reppers. Similar to reppers on dropsuits but on tanks. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization Covert Intervention
460
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Posted - 2012.10.23 18:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Tiel Syysch wrote:Why does every vehicle need to fit an armor repair to survive? You've just weakened all but active armor fits by eating up that module slot and fitting space.
Why do people need to be punished for dropping below an arbitrary threshold? Why can't people be punished for not dealing enough damage to finish off the vehicle? It works that way with infantry. If 2 tanks go at it, and one kills the other and barely survives, it should also die? It makes no sense.
Not sure what's sounding like a child to you, but feel free to keep insulting people for no reason. It doesn't make your position any stronger. your demenor is giving yourself away. you act like a victim. the fact that you think the enemy isn't doing enough damage is the reason is crap, they already punched through the shield which most shield tankers have plenty of and got into the armor and becuase the lack of armoring is causing over heating of sensitive equipment and wires are burning and fuel cells are punctured. if you don't have regenerating armor plates it's the end of the vehicle.
the enemies already had to punch through the easy to rep shield they little speck of health left is the vehicle's last breath.
why should armor tankers be punished for being heavy and slower? shield reppers get all the benifits of taking damage, faster rep times, faster ships/vehicles. they had plenty of oppertunities to turn tail and run while their sheilds were being eaten. |
Skihids
Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising
969
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Posted - 2012.10.23 19:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'd like to see less damage taken when an RDV drops off a dropship and it rolls over onto me. I respawned to find it on its side with half its armor. When I used a jeep to right it the total damage (starting with full shields) was high enough that it caught fire.
Maybe that was just shoddy workmanship from the factory, but a simple rollover after dropoff should not eat into the armor of a decent Myron.
I suppose I should skill up a rep tool or fit a repper in one of my two low slots, though the latter is a big sacrifice to combat effectiveness. |
ugg reset
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
234
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Posted - 2012.10.23 20:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
i've never died in a burning vehicle. I always jumped out before that point. if you feel you must go down with the ship then your only hurting your self.
there are two solutions to your problem: -skill in to the armor rep tool. the first one rep vehicles for 100hp/sec. - add a active armor rep Module to your ride.
Both of there will save your Ride.I prefer the rep tool because it's cheep than the mod and it lets me add more armor to my Methana. |
Ten-Sidhe
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
414
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Posted - 2012.10.23 20:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
EvE had burning and it didn't unbalance shield vs armour.
Maybe have it start burning when 90% of ehp are gone, then a shield tank with barely any armour might have its hp start dropping from fire before shield is completely gone.
Damage control in EvE gave a small resit to shield and a larger resit to armour, and 50% to structure. If it gave more resit to armour and cut the point the fires started in half, for example from 90% to 95% gone, it would help even out the shield/armour imbalance.
Shield extenders need add to signature and reduce swarm lock on time to balance the movement loss from plates. The other defence modules from eve need added also, active amour hardners, shield relays, ect...
Capacitor would also help balance armour vs shield, it was easier to balance a armour tank to be cap stable(run continually) then a shield tank.
Amarr anti-tank weapons and em warhead missiles would also help even out the balance. |
Free Beers
Internal Error. Negative-Feedback
1041
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Posted - 2012.10.23 21:31:00 -
[26] - Quote
its just stupid I really have no idea why ccp would put this in here.
CCP said when asking for weapons idea that it has to be fun for user but not unfun for the other person. This falls into the unfun category. Just like flipping a drop ship with 1 volley from milita swarm launcher.
stop trying to fix or balance **** that doesn't need to be in game in the first place.
let fits/skills/planning/tatics/logistics be complicated but keep combat simple. Please remember the fps part of the fpsmmo that is dust. When it comes match time keep it simple.
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Scheneighnay McBob
Bojo's School of the Trades
1062
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Posted - 2012.10.23 21:46:00 -
[27] - Quote
Zero Harpuia wrote:I agree with Noc. It's one of the many stupid advantages shields have over armor with no real equivalent drawback.
Shield has boosters, Armor has reppers Shield has resist modules, Armor has active plates Shield has extenders(no weaknesses), Armor has plating(which slows you)...
but...
Shield has active resistance modules, armor has nothing. Shield doesn't have any weaknesses when it begins to fail(like the leak-through damage in EVE), Armor begins to burn and take damage. Shield resists all current forms of AV weaponry naturally, Armor doesn't. Running out of shield is no big, hide behind a mountain for a few moments, maybe wait for the boosters to cool down. Run low on armor? BAIL!
We need a damn structure level for vehicles, at the very least... and more armor mods and shield weaknesses, at the very most. There is a tiny advantage armor has over shields- lasers and flux grenades completely ruin shields.
Still, it's not a big enough advantage to make anything this thread is saying wrong. |
The Polish Hammer
Doomheim
373
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Posted - 2012.10.23 22:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
What the holy hell is going on in this thread?
Infantry starting on fire like tanks? What are we talking about here? Are they adding in a flamethrower??? You could maybe justify this if you came up with a plausible explanation.
All vehicles inherently should start on fire if they take enough damage if they want any semblance of realism out of them. That's all i'll say about it. I'm not knowledgeable enough about tanks to know talk about shield vs. armor tanks. |
GaGe AsSeBrKr
Osmon Surveillance Caldari State
54
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Posted - 2012.10.23 23:05:00 -
[29] - Quote
We should just remove logistics from the game, too. Because this game should totally be balanced around 1v1. Nerf everything. Nerf hard, nerf fast. |
Harm Harmless
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.10.23 23:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
imho there should be a skill that reduces burn duration, so at lvl 5 you only burn like 20% of when you didn't train the skill.
I don't think it should be removed entirely, as it's a nice punishment for people driving away from a lost fight. You did good, but not good enough.... BOOM |
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