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Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
235
   |
Posted - 2012.10.12 02:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
There are a number of us that feel the current swarm mechanics just arenGÇÖt working, and that the entire weapon needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. As it stands right now, the idea is that the weapon requires minimal skill to use and simply performs too well for such little investment and player action. Also, one of the problems is the damage scales far too much across the tiers.
The proposition is this: The swarm launcher needs to have specializations within its weapon class. These specializations need to excel at combating one type of target while being disadvantaged against others. The base swarm launcher also needs to require skill to use, rather than lock, fire, and forget.
Base Swarm Launcher:
-Dumb fire only
-Missiles converge on a focal point at a distance
-Missiles require flight time before becoming explosive (20m) [applies to all variants]
-Max flight range: 125m
-Moderate speed missiles (50m/s)
-10 missiles at 120 damage per missile (11 missiles for advanced, 12 for prototype)
Heavy Missile variant:
-(+20) damage per missile
-Max flight range: 75m
-Slow speed (20m/s)
Light Missile variant:
-(-20) damage per missile
-Max flight range: 200m
-Fast speed (80m/s)
Lock-on variant:
-(-60) damage per missile
-Lock-on range: 100m for ground targets, 150m for aerial targets
-Can have standard, heavy, and light missile variants
Anti-Infantry variant:
-(-95) damage per missile
-1.0m blast radius per missile
-Missiles do not converge on a focal point
-Can have standard, heavy, and light missile variants
-Cannot have lock-on variant
For the examples given, the numbers donGÇÖt matter as much as the concepts. The flight speeds for the varying types have heavy at slightly faster than HAVs, base at slightly faster than LAVs, and light at faster than dropships. Heavy could hit anything standing still, but to catch a specific vehicle running at max speed, you would need an appropriate missile type.
The base version requires you to aim or lead a moving target, while being able to lock-on comes at the cost of a damage penalty. People skilled at dry firing will be able to outperform others with the weapon, being able to cause more damage than those that have to resort to lock-on mechanics. The harder hitting missiles are also restricted by range, so as not to have max damage coming from across the map and trailing forever.
IGÇÖve also included an anti-infantry variant, as IGÇÖve seen that asked for a few times, and it comes with a severe damage penalty, and is restricted by blast radius.
The number of missiles were chosen to lessen the damage gap when upgrading to a higher tier. The weapons I had looked at (which isn't very many, but included the forge gun), seemed to follow the pattern of +10% base damage per tier, and at 10 missiles as the base, it allows it to follow the same pattern. It may be too resource-intensive at those numbers, however. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 02:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
No lock on for missiles = no propulsion for dropships |
Raven Tesio
Liandri Hel-Jumpers
Liandri Covenant
35
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 02:27:00 -
[3] - Quote
I'm not a fan of the Swarm Launcher on the whole, simply because of how it works.
Effectively it's an All-or-Nothing weapon, which frankly is impossible to use near any sort of obsticle; be it a building, or even just a small knee-high hill as the missiles have a life of their own once they launch.
What I think would be better is if
1 GÇó It had a Scope... I mean seriously WHY DOES IT?!
2 GÇó 'Dumb' Fire just launched a Single Straight Missile, i.e. worked like an RPG
3 GÇó Secondry Fire was customisable or based on Weapon Manufacturer.
As such it could:
A GÇó Launched the Entire Clip in Quick Succession (Row of Missiles)
B GÇó Launched the Entire Clip at Once (Spreads out and Hits at the same time, as it works now)
C GÇó Locks and Fires a Single Missile
4 GÇó Different Ammo Types
A GÇó Rockets (Dumb Fire w/Light Damage but Higher Number per Clip) [vs Infantry]
B GÇó Guided Missile (Can be fired Dumb or Smart w/Medium Damage) [vs Aircraft]
C GÇó Cruise Missile (Can only be fired Smart w/High Damage, but Single Missile per Clip) [vs Heavy Vehicles]
5 GÇó Should be used in conjunction with a Target Painter (Sidearm or Utility Module), which reduced Lock Time on Vehicles
6 GÇó Should be able to lock-on to Area Designators (Sidearm or Utility Module), Paints an "Area" for Lock-On
7 GÇó Scope should show Areas "Capable" of being Locked on to. |
Governor Odius
Doomheim
177
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 02:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Skytt Syysch wrote:
Dry fire only
The phrase you're looking for is "dumb fire". "Dry fire" is when you fire a weapon that isn't loaded. |
Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 02:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
Governor Odius wrote:Skytt Syysch wrote:
Dry fire only
The phrase you're looking for is "dumb fire". "Dry fire" is when you fire a weapon that isn't loaded.
Same thing as far as I care, you know what I meant.  |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 05:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Why not just make them three missiles and have the damage go up like other weapons? Locking weapons need a significant damage nerf and there needs to be a working militia AA option. |
Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 07:43:00 -
[7] - Quote
Noc Tempre wrote:Why not just make them three missiles and have the damage go up like other weapons? Locking weapons need a significant damage nerf and there needs to be a working militia AA option.
I guess that could work, just felt easier for bonus/penalty purposes to have the missiles the same damage across the board, and to split up the damage across more points for the anti-infantry one, so the damage wasn't as condensed. I remember an early image or video of them being a group of spiraling missiles, so maybe they could use that. I don't consider any of the numbers set in stone, though, so I wouldn't care how they made it happen as long as the underlying idea was still intact. |
Necrodermis
GunFall Mobilization
Covert Intervention
460
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 09:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
i think they haven't finished fixing the swarms.
they purposefully broke them to keep the dropships from being obliterated out of the air as soon as they come into sight. if the pilot keeps moving at a certain speed kitten missiles wont hit them.
this is good for some pilots but not good for others. any kind of armor mod they put on the vehicle will slow them to where they will be hit by kittens all day because they are just too slow.
until they give flares or something kittens will remain the way they are (seeing the front of the dropship as an obstacle rather than a target and will travel around the dropship so it can chase it). |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 12:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
tbh i dont like the current swarm tracking system
as a tanker its annoying to see u get behind cover to put a solid object between the LoS of the swarms and ur vehicle only to see it SWERVE around the cover to still track u
and with the slower speed on tanks this makes swarms extremely easy to use atm
hell militia swarms do 1200 dmg that is somewhat a problem for armor tankers because everyone and their mother starts with a free non consumable anti-armor starter fit so if anyone brings out a tank theoretically the entire team can all swap to 1200 dmg per shot militia free swarms
i dont mind forge guns as much as those take some skillin up and u actually have to aim but the tracking on swarms needs fixing for both ground and air vehicles |
Supercakers
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
45
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 20:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:tbh i dont like the current swarm tracking system
as a tanker its annoying to see u get behind cover to put a solid object between the LoS of the swarms and ur vehicle only to see it SWERVE around the cover to still track u
The missiles don't swerve around obstacles to avoid them, they are on a flight path to you. You are moving and they adjust to follow you and depending on the angle they come from and any turns you make, that changes their flight path. So when you make a direction change to get behind cover but do it too late, that's what you are seeing when the missiles swerve. |
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Supercakers
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
45
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 20:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:tbh i dont like the current swarm tracking system
as a tanker its annoying to see u get behind cover to put a solid object between the LoS of the swarms and ur vehicle only to see it SWERVE around the cover to still track u
The missiles don't swerve around obstacles to avoid them, they are on a flight path to you. You are moving and they adjust to follow you and depending on the angle they come from and any turns you make, that changes their flight path. So when you make a sharp direction change to get behind cover but do it too late, that's what you are seeing when the missiles swerve.
Also - having to specialize in half a dozen types of launchers is kind of ridiculous. Same should go for AR's then, if someone wants to use something besides Assault Rifle, they have to specialize in Assault Rifle first, then continue specializing into Burst, or Tactical, or GEK etc... |
Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
235
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 21:31:00 -
[12] - Quote
Supercakers wrote:
Also - having to specialize in half a dozen types of launchers is kind of ridiculous. Same should go for AR's then, if someone wants to use something besides Assault Rifle, they have to specialize in Assault Rifle first, then continue specializing into Burst, or Tactical, or GEK etc...
Well they're not meant to be separate skill paths, just specialized weapon variants, like we have the burst, tactical, etc rifles. I would just like for weapons to move away from the well-rounded area and focus more on specialization so that there are actually counters available and you have to be smart about what you're bringing into the battle. |
Wintars Boar
ZionTCD
Legacy Rising
64
|
Posted - 2012.10.12 21:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
I have no issue increasing the number of skills to include sub sets of weapon types. Makes it much more customized and specific |
Piercing Serenity
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
181
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 00:39:00 -
[14] - Quote
Wintars Boar wrote:I have no issue increasing the number of skills to include sub sets of weapon types. Makes it much more customized and specific
And ISK/SP consuming. I'm wary of adding any more "customization" until I see some more evidence for money making systems. With WP boosting and the low average meta level in game now, more customization just turns into a harder skill and learning curve for new players.
PSN: PiercingSerenity
Country: US
Class: Assault
Corp: Shattered Ascension (Pending) |
Supercakers
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
45
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 00:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oh, I thought you meant there had to be different skill specializations that you had to train for. You just mean you don't want someone bringing in say, a tank buster to the match because the enemy have a couple tanks to also be just as good at taking down a dropship? I can see that I guess. Although this is very hard to do now with swarms atm. You use a forge gun, since dropships can just fly in circles, while pounding all objectives. Or hope they are awful dropship pilots like me! haha |
Raven Tesio
Liandri Hel-Jumpers
Liandri Covenant
35
|
Posted - 2012.10.13 13:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Well I was talking purely different variations, think along the lines of RPG, Stinger, Javlin. They are good because they are focused against more specific targets, but also work best when working as a team.
To me the Heavy shouldn't be the "Solo Artist" they are right now but rather something that is to be feared when working with a Sniper for example for target painting. That was just my concept.
Besides if any of you are "worried" over new skills be added... well tough really. CCP will be expanding the skills available as new things become available, kitten look at the second-from-last release. They overhauled so much skills wise. |
Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
789
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 17:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
What if they were semi-wire guided. You'd just need to stick with the target somewhat, not as precise as in other games, because games like BF3 the wire guided missiles for AA were nearly impossible to use. Just keep the locking box on target and swarms will track, and Allow them to reacquire if you lose the tracking for a sec and then put your box back on target Until their flight time runs out.
This means swarms are no longer Fire & forget weapons and require some manner of player effort + skill to use, and can be avoiding with skill + disrupting line of sight instead of flying in circles. More player skill requirement on both ends of AV is good. |
Alshadow
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
71
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 17:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
i think swarm launchers need to start with 3 missiles fire and increase to 4 at avd and 5 at proto,
then increase the missile speed by alot and reduce the missile damage but then increase the ammo cap and leave the clip size where its at |
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