DUST Search - [Request: corporate training mechanic = corporate battles]

VADOL II wrote:

Longshot Ravenwood wrote:

Set up a sister corporation. When you're looking to train both corps join the match & everyone knows what to expect.

Sanchez already spoke to this, but I want to add my two cents. the purpose is to train in your toon, with the skills and gear you already have, in order to really know what you can do and what your set-up is made of. Not to mention also getting basic things down such as squad formations, tactics and basic skill building. If you are playing with a sister corp then you are not playing with your main, and therefore not with what you are taking in to real corp battles, not your real load-out and skills. This leads to a very high likely-hood that Leaderboard and SP boosting will occur (even with the best of intentions, the sister corp, by it's very nature, wont have the same skilled toons the main corp will have)

I feel that Sanchez's theory and proposal are quite sound and will have a huge impact on the overall skill level of the player base. And while it will hurt the wallet (especially with current ISK gains) I also agree with the real cost of doing battle. There are options to mitigate this, from using cheap fits (I know thats the exact opposite of what I said about training in your real suits), to attempting to have members not make the 'Final Shot' whenever possible, and letting the 'Dead' Merc return to main spawn, rep and return to training.

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howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.10.09 14:05:00 - [1] - Quote New corporations in DUST have a lot to do in order to be competitive amongst thier peers. DUST, with all of its complex moving parts, can be quite a challenge for new players just dropping in for a new experience off the PSN. How can CCP and player corporations partner to provide a more manageable and efficient play experience? How do we turn the "learning cliff" into a "learning hill"? We need a place to train, practice and organize our corporations, teams and squads. This is not a new topic. Training and practice options have been discussed on these forums for a while. But, with Corporate Battles, CCP has presented a mechanic that is almost ready made to fill this vital gap in making DUST more accessible for new players while enhancing the game's ability to grow and flourish in the newly constructed sandbox! If a corporation could accept and play corporate battles against itself ( with a few restrictions and limits) they would have a ready made training ground and we would all accelerate the potential for really good FPSMMO interaction The key is to make the mechanic fair and prevent it from giving corps anything besides a place to practice new ideas and tactics on the battlefield. We don't want intra-corp training to replace or detract from instant battles, corp battles or other game modes. No skill point gain. No isk gain. ( note: based on current functionality these two criteria are already met). No war point gain ( you could just turn the WP gain completely of but this detracts from some function (installation and off map support) or you could prevent the system from retaining any WP gained after the match Obviously the system would have to be able to monitor and differentiate stats generated from intra-corp training vs inter-corp battles to avoid stat padding and effects but this presumably wouldn't be too difficult. CCP, please consider the game expanding benefits we could all achieve by allowing Corporate Battles to be accepted and played by a single corporation as an introduction to any planned corp training system Thank you for your consideration.
Gcember Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 123	Posted - 2012.10.09 14:41:00 - [2] - Quote Good points. There sould be some sort of "briefing" room for corporations to plan how they are going to do. Also we need some sort of training options as you said. +1
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.10.09 15:31:00 - [3] - Quote An excellent idea. Show the stats at battle end, just don't add them to the players permanent record. We definately need to be able to run blue team/ red team training exercises to build strategy and tactics. I just wonder how expensive it would be ISK wise. Normal war games don't actually kill people or destroy equipment.
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.10.09 15:45:00 - [4] - Quote Skihids, You have raised the issue that most derailed this idea during previous discussions: Cost I would like to make the case for Corporate Training via Corporate Battles while supporting CCP's traditional and widely accepted stance that 'there is no free lunch' and Reward must be balanced with Risk To that end I recommend that clones and gear lost during training are lost just like in battle. We train like we fight The cost of training is gear. There has to be a cost for every benefit we gain. But, remember, we can control and mitigate that cost! If BetaMax wants to test 4 proto-geared mercs vs 16 militia - they can do that If ZionTCD wants to train 2 mid tier dropships vs proto swarms - we can do that If a brand new corp with all of 16 members wants to train in half fit militia gear to save isk - they can do that We need to retain some cost in order to have the benefit. This seems a fair approach to me. You?
Magpie Raven ZionTCD Legacy Rising 161	Posted - 2012.10.09 17:41:00 - [5] - Quote A great idea +1
Skihids Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 969	Posted - 2012.10.09 19:01:00 - [6] - Quote You could train with live fire and pay full cost. I suppose some corporations might be able to afford it. I certainly don't think it should be free, but there is a lower cost alternative that mirrors today's wargames. You simply delclare assets "killed" and disable them. Tanks would just lock up, dropships would float down and park, or perhaps both would drive off field and be picked up. Suits lock up with the wearer inside. Or perhaps the hardware would really get destroyed but they would be (relatively) inexpensive "paper" models programmed to behave as the real thing and the weapons much less powerful simulations of the real thing as well. Everything then acts the same, but at a fraction of the cost. Thus there would be a cost for the simulation hardware, but it would be much lower than replacing all the equipment. A real advanced tech wouldn't find this difficult to do, though it might require significant programming on CCP's part to implement.
Odiain Suliis ZionTCD Legacy Rising 112	Posted - 2012.10.09 19:37:00 - [7] - Quote I like this idea. And definately the gear and clones needs to cost as much as it costs in 'real' battles.
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.10.09 20:26:00 - [8] - Quote I really do understand and appreciate the concern that some players have with the idea of losing expensive gear during training. But let's temper this concern by remembering what our alternatives are We currently don't have an option for intra-corp training. So, if we come up with a way to ' train ' anytime soon it will involve queuing into real matches vs other corps and players. This would not be the ideal method most would choose but that is the reality we face currently. We would like to slightly modify a currently built system ( corporate battles) for training. In order to be realistic regarding development time we would like to modify or adjust the current system as little as possible so that we could use it sooner than "Soon". You always have the option of training in militia or lower cost gear. So, if our goal is to get a fair and beneficial training option out to beta testers that doesn't negatively impact other game modes, I suggest keeping full cost and loss of gear while allowing corporations to compete in corporate battles against themselves. In future iterations additional options could be developed. But, as a first roll out, let's change the system as little as possible in the interest of fast deployment. A lot of people agree that corporate training would significantly enhance gameplay across the whole player base. This is a feature that boosts multiplayer interaction, corporate organization, and product exclusivity ( how many other games offer this?). If you like this idea let ccp know. Thanks
Magpie Raven ZionTCD Legacy Rising 161	Posted - 2012.10.09 20:47:00 - [9] - Quote +1 corp buddy.
Virex Staz Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 53	Posted - 2012.10.09 22:33:00 - [10] - Quote +1 This game is (right now, and yes, I know its just a beta) monstrously hard for inexperienced FPSers to started with. Anything which would allow the devs to quickly introduce some help in that area is a good thing in my view.

howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.10.09 23:14:00 - [11] - Quote This post hasn't been up on the forums for very long but the limited feedback it has received has been generally positive. Before it drifts down to the cold dark wet place beneath the North Atlantic that DUST posts go to when they sink,would someone from CCP care to comment on any really big game stopping issues? That is, are there any glaring program issues that would prevent an idea like this from taking the next step or two towards fruition?
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.09 23:49:00 - [12] - Quote Set up a sister corporation. When you're looking to train both corps join the match & everyone knows what to expect.
Vrain Matari ZionTCD Legacy Rising 404	Posted - 2012.10.10 02:43:00 - [13] - Quote We need this - every corp needs this. We have to get to know each other, work with each other, learn each other's strengths and weaknesses. I for one know that I have huge holes in my fps education, and I'm sure that in a couple of training matches the more experienced members could spot my weaknesses and steer me in the right direction. With the ability to hold intra-corp training matches AND(not OR, CCP) a spectator mode it won't be long before the best fpsers in the world are coming from DUST - exactly the way it should be.
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.10.10 05:08:00 - [14] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: Set up a sister corporation. When you're looking to train both corps join the match & everyone knows what to expect. Long shot, thanks for the considered reply We've actually thought of this and, although it may serve as a fully player implemented band-aid, it also comes rife with potential meta-game complications. Not to mention the questions of boosting and padding and...on and on. Let's recognize this idea as a quick fix to some low hanging fruit. It could be a significant win-win if such development effort afforded a potential for harder focused test data across a modestly more controlled sample set.
Smoke2Bowls ZionTCD Legacy Rising 93	Posted - 2012.10.10 05:33:00 - [15] - Quote I fully support this idea! :D :D :D
VADOL II Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 49	Posted - 2012.10.10 05:34:00 - [16] - Quote Longshot Ravenwood wrote: Set up a sister corporation. When you're looking to train both corps join the match & everyone knows what to expect. Sanchez already spoke to this, but I want to add my two cents. the purpose is to train in your toon, with the skills and gear you already have, in order to really know what you can do and what your set-up is made of. Not to mention also getting basic things down such as squad formations, tactics and basic skill building. If you are playing with a sister corp then you are not playing with your main, and therefore not with what you are taking in to real corp battles, not your real load-out and skills. This leads to a very high likely-hood that Leaderboard and SP boosting will occur (even with the best of intentions, the sister corp, by it's very nature, wont have the same skilled toons the main corp will have) I feel that Sanchez's theory and proposal are quite sound and will have a huge impact on the overall skill level of the player base. And while it will hurt the wallet (especially with current ISK gains) I also agree with the real cost of doing battle. There are options to mitigate this, from using cheap fits (I know thats the exact opposite of what I said about training in your real suits), to attempting to have members not make the 'Final Shot' whenever possible, and letting the 'Dead' Merc return to main spawn, rep and return to training.
4447 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 649	Posted - 2012.10.10 08:37:00 - [17] - Quote +1
Lion Redstar ZionTCD Legacy Rising 66	Posted - 2012.10.10 08:48:00 - [18] - Quote This is a great idea. Corporations should have some way to train their troops. They should be able to setup training matches with specific clone/time limit. Those matches should not give any SP/ISK. Also any equipment lost should be returned at the end. My idea is to make them as some kind of simulated battles: - Corp rent a "simulator" slot and pay a rent fee - Corp enter the simulator and start training - At the end of simulation all gear are returned to players
Longshot Ravenwood Algintal Core Gallente Federation 680	Posted - 2012.10.10 22:07:00 - [19] - Quote VADOL II wrote: Longshot Ravenwood wrote: Set up a sister corporation. When you're looking to train both corps join the match & everyone knows what to expect. Sanchez already spoke to this, but I want to add my two cents. the purpose is to train in your toon, with the skills and gear you already have, in order to really know what you can do and what your set-up is made of. Not to mention also getting basic things down such as squad formations, tactics and basic skill building. If you are playing with a sister corp then you are not playing with your main, and therefore not with what you are taking in to real corp battles, not your real load-out and skills. This leads to a very high likely-hood that Leaderboard and SP boosting will occur (even with the best of intentions, the sister corp, by it's very nature, wont have the same skilled toons the main corp will have) I feel that Sanchez's theory and proposal are quite sound and will have a huge impact on the overall skill level of the player base. And while it will hurt the wallet (especially with current ISK gains) I also agree with the real cost of doing battle. There are options to mitigate this, from using cheap fits (I know thats the exact opposite of what I said about training in your real suits), to attempting to have members not make the 'Final Shot' whenever possible, and letting the 'Dead' Merc return to main spawn, rep and return to training. For players who are unfamiliar with EVE-Online there is a Highsec PVP Corporation named "Red vs Blue" which consists of the Red Federation and the Blue Republic. Both are full time corporations and both are at war full time with eachother. How would this relate to PVP training on our end? We can steal the concept of 2 Corproations geared toward mutual combat, and set up a second corporation (or reach out to an existing corporation, or reach out to a newly founded corporation) to engage in mutually agreed upon training engagements. The idea of a "sister" corporation wouldn't be to fill it with alts, but to split forces evenly between both corporations for training or have one of the corporations as the "training corporation" and rotate squad members as training is completed.
Phantom Eren Doomheim 33	Posted - 2012.10.11 02:00:00 - [20] - Quote just spit balling here but what if the cost was differed to the corps instead of the mercs (I realize that In Zion's case it is but thats not true in all corps) so instead of it being "you setup a live fire battle against yourselves" it would be more of a "your corp bought time in the training room" deal. I'm not sure if any of you have read ender's game but the training room would be like the battle room from the book.

Wintars Boar ZionTCD Legacy Rising 64	Posted - 2012.10.11 16:31:00 - [21] - Quote I'm not certain cost will be too big of an issue aside from vehicles. Since this is training, most of the time squad orders and movement are the focus. Couldn't militia gear work just as effectively or more effectively for training purposes? I don't know why I would need proto level gear when working tactics? Just a thought. I think this is a great idea. +1
howard sanchez Conspiratus Immortalis 448	Posted - 2012.10.12 16:02:00 - [22] - Quote Wintars Boar wrote: I'm not certain cost will be too big of an issue aside from vehicles. Since this is training, most of the time squad orders and movement are the focus. Couldn't militia gear work just as effectively or more effectively for training purposes? I don't know why I would need proto level gear when working tactics? Just a thought. I think this is a great idea. +1 WB is right on target. Yes, currently if DUST corps want to train at all we could create an alt or sister corp to battle against...but that is the system we already have. If we do this we need to have a third party voice channel to coordinate training and we have the issues of isk flowing and K:D W:L stats shifting between corps. We can and perhaps should start this now because CCP has chosen to remain silent regarding the feasibility of the Training idea. But, if CCP recognizes the value of a system the allows a single corporation to train in combat and manuever operations, I would ask them to give us a sign. Perhaps a blue unicorn appearing briefly as an omen of hope.... Anything. Yes we can shoe string a partial solution. But how much better a system that allows every corporation a game mode to grow, organize and improve itself? CCP- send us a sign to show you have heard our meager plea!
Rorian Gray HavoK Core 12	Posted - 2012.10.21 05:07:00 - [23] - Quote I logged into the forums today to request this same feature, pretty much exactly as Howard has presented it. Seems our outfit should be able to put down on some piece of rock and do some live fire exercises between paying jobs. And no sort of sissy simulator is going to cut it. Now that safety is no concern, there is no reason to compromise training quality like that. If some recruit wasn't paying attention to instructions and wrecks a good dropship, he needs to know he won't be able to just "reset". I suspect the devs have already considered this and it's probably in the works. I would imagine they wouldn't want us using the current maps for this. Something about exploring unhindered by a determined enemy would take something away. And supplying us with a special map for this probably isn't high on their to-do list just yet. I like the suggestion of using corp battles to train in agreement with another corp as a temporary solution. I wonder if adding a few options would make it more valuable with little (relative) development effort? Such as options to extend the match timer two to four times longer. Also, as I haven't been part of offering or accepting corp battles personally, I may be wrong here, but I believe that currently any corp can accept any posted contract. If it's not already possible, a limit on who is able to accept the contract would also help this work maybe. Would definitely love to hear what thoughts CCP might already have on the matter.


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