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Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
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Posted - 2012.10.02 22:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
While I agree that this would minimize the farming it would also kill Logi (or a large portion of the Logi role).
It's already a clumsy system to play Logi legit as it stands;
people running off when you're trying to rep them because they don't know they're being repped
reppers not giving WP until the end of cycle so smaller amounts not give gains
and a whole host of "just play with the milita gear it'll earn you more WP" issues.
Adding an ISK cost on top of that? 
I suppose if the ISK cost was taken from the suit/vehicle owner rather than the logi that'd be better but even then you'd run into the problem of people not wanting to let themselves be repped sometimes because of the associated cost (i.e. "if it's going to cost me ISK anyway I might as well just keep gunning until I die").
Making the LAV no longer free would help I believe, or at minimum limiting how many any given player (or squad?) could call down per match.
Also frankly once we have friendly fire enabled matches some of us would be more than happy to slag farmers in our games  but I guess that's kind of it's own thing.
I'll give this some more thought and see if anything shakes loose. Your proposed ideas are interesting ones and deserving of more consideration.
0.02 ISK
Cross |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.02 23:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
Fivetimes Infinity wrote:This is a good thread full of handsome men.
Also, I think I'm with you. Limiting repairs in this sense is a sensible idea, if only because it would also make the BF3-style tactic of having a tank with 3 guys repairing it, like remorahs around a shark, less viable. On the other hand, the way things are priced right now assumes that repairs are free, so a change like this would have broader implications. Maybe there's a solution that works roughly the same way, but without the hassle? Like... maybe if repair tools had limited use and couldn't be refilled via a supply depot/nano hive? Then essentially it's the same thing.
You've just given me an idea, suits are capable of having type specific bonuses, much like the "role bonus" on some ships in EVE. So what if the repair tool had a substantial increase in PG/CPU requirements but the Logi suits gave a 'role bonus' discount to equipping them?
Granted this wouldn't be a full solve in and of itself as the farmers could start running Logi suits but when combined with a limitation like vehicles cannot be deployed in the red zone (hence to farm you'd have to do it in areas where you are at risk from the other team) I think it could come close.
Also WP only being granted from enemy damage (in areas where friendly fire is turned off) would be a good method, shouldn't be too hard to track since the FF system is already in place tracking damage sources. Might require a tweak to crash damage levels but that's all to the good anyway. Make the LAVs etc take lower amounts of crash damage and they become more useful for real play and less useful for SP/WP farming.
So gents, what am I overlooking with the above, is that a fix that sounds workable? |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 00:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote:Cortez The Killer wrote:Expendable repair tools has a nice ring to it. It really does, friendly fire won't work either as it will always be off in hisec and they will always be able to farm.
This might work if the current rather broken system for repping were fixed first. As it currently stands Merc playing Logi (as opposed to using some Logi tools to farm like little kittens) are already disadvantaged in several ways but using the repper tool. The WP are awarded at the end of cycle not in real time, the repping isn't flagged so someone knows they're being repped (unless they happen to look at you/their armor at the right moment) and the rep values of WP given are actually lessor for use of higher end tools (so if you skill to the quality gear to really support your squad you earn fewer WP).
By contrast none of the above hurts the farmers and while an expendable rep tool might hinder farming it would (under the current system) render investing points in repping effectively a worthless sink. One in which the skill set (character skill) and higher Meta gear may as well not exist because 9 times out of 10 (or better) it won't be worth anyones time to actually use/train the upper levels.
If one were to give higher "use values" to the better repper tools and a bonus to "use value" via the required skills so that someone running proto tools would have unlimited use that would address some of this in that there would still be incentive to train/fit better skills and gear. It would also require a higher entry threshold for someone to go farming. However on it's own it still wouldn't be a fix.
Not allowing vehicles to be deployed in the red zone I think is key, because if they're spending their time farming in the live fire part of the map their at more or less as much risk as anyone else (you could still hang out in a quite corner to farm but at least you'd be exposed to some risk and if you're earning OBs for your team that gives the opposing team incentive to kill you rather than just let you farm). |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 00:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cerebral Wolf Jr wrote:You get less WP for using better gear? :CCP:
yeah it's epic 
Currently WP gains for reppers are tied to the repper cycle thus the higher rep value upper meta gear gives fewer WP for the same amount of damage repped. It also ticks at the end of the repper cycle so repping small amounts can often result in little to no WP gain. To make matters even more epic using high end injectors heals more (reducing the amount left to be repped when reviving someone) and grants no more WP than the milita version.
Long story short the present system of awarding WP for Logi actions creates a zero sum choice between doing what's best for the squad (i.e. effective healing/repping/reviing) and doing what's most effective for your WP gains.
Sadly this hinders only legit LogiBros while allowing the farmers to continue unabated. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.03 11:45:00 -
[5] - Quote
Here's a related thread I just read: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=39069&find=unread
had some good ideas about attaching a criminal flag (in game EVE term) to farming activities how that might be implemented. Give it a look, see what you think. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 00:21:00 -
[6] - Quote
I have no idea of the tech load a change like this would take, but assuming that's reasonable the idea has a lot of merit.
It would help (slightly) folks who'd been redlined (a concern raised by some posters here) and it would prevent the current form of SP/WP farming without imposing more burdens on Logi.
I would hazard that it shouldn't be present in Null, but then again I don't think the redzone should be present in Null either and besides all that Null rolls out later so there's time to figure it out. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 02:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
OB/PS spam fix
https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=38962&find=unread
With the suggestions in the thread above I think (even for farmers) the War Point side of things will be ironed out once we hit live.
In live the OB/PS will be coming from actual player assets not an intangible game mechanic. It'll be much harder to spam them when they require a real player on the other end coordinating with you, likely demanding ISK and beyond that constantly at risk of being shot down (remember the guns fit to a ship which can shoot the ground are useless in ship to ship combat putting any OB pilot at a disadvantage if engaged).
As to the general farming spam the best option does seem to be turning off collision damage within the redzone. I agree that it breaks the continuity at some level but IMO better that than the continuity break (plus other ill effects) of "mercs" crashing their own ships/LAV et al over and over again to gain War Points and skills.
Another option might be lowing the collision damage across the board because of the possible WP/SP earned is mitigated far enough the farming becomes a worthless activity (i.e. no longer provides any advantage in gains as compared with actual play). Yes farming would still be safer but if people running starter fits are earning more SP/WP/ISK then the farmers will likely give it up. |
Cross Atu
Conspiratus Immortalis
775
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 23:45:00 -
[8] - Quote
General question, has anyone seen farming going on in Ambush games or is it limited to Skirmish?
If one wishes to hunt a creature one must establish the habitat in which it thrives 
The better we establish when and where the problem occurs the better we can focus our thoughts on a solution.  |
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