DUST Search - I have an idea to help fix the "noob vs vet" problem

Parson Atreides wrote:

mikegunnz wrote:

Parson Atreides wrote:

Ten-Sidhe wrote:

Maybe a sp/wp bonus for killing better gear then your using. Biggest difference is gun used and dropsuit. Could be calculated off meta level, or base cost(ccp set price based of minerals needed, actual price will vary, same number EvE bases insurance payouts on)

This would give new players the bonus, but only give older(in game time) players bonus if using weak gear.

That's not bad, but I still think you're going to hit a point where it's more beneficial to use worse gear than you have access too simply because the game is limiting your WP accrual based on your fitting--a situation that should be avoided like the plague.

Not sure you'd be limited. Even if you have high-level gear, if you kill someone in high-level gear, you get more WP. If you kill a militia fit, you get less. Either way, you still get WP. I don't see a penalty for using proto gear.

Are you talking about Sidhe's idea or your own original one?

If you're talking about Sidhe's, then you'd only be getting more WP than normal if you killed someone with highER-level gear. Which would mean it's at least possible to intentionally gimp yourself to increase your WP gained, which seems like a very strange notion if you want to encourage people to progress to better stuff.

If you're talking about your original idea, then I think my first post deals with that. You're going to have an even larger gap between new players and vets if you award a flat rate WP earned based on gear level of victim since it will always be easier for a well geared player of the same skill level to kill a player with good gear (relative to a poorly geared player of the same skill versus someone with good gear).

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mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.09.22 16:01:00 - [1] - Quote I actually started thinking about this with the other post on assists. The OP in that post wanted for assists to get equal points with kills. This idea is stupid. However, I though, "why not make a system like battlefield 3" You get assist points based on the amount of damage you did to the player. A kill earns you full points, but you can earn almost as many points if you did most of the damage, but someone else jumped in and finished the guy off. Seems fair. ex: You do 75% of the damage, but only get assist...you earn 75% of the WP of the kill. (37 or 38 WP) That got me thinking...why not base not only assist points, but also kill points off a similar system. Reward kill points (and damage/assist points) based on the cost of the opponent's suit. If you kill a newbie with an all-militia fit, it earns you 50 WP. If you kill someone with an expensive fit, you earn 1 additional WP for every 2,000 isk that the fit costs. ex. Killing a free, all militia fit = 50WP Killing a fit that costs 250,000isk= 50WP+125WP=175WP. This will reward newbies that can kill vets, and help them level up faster. And it also penalizes the "try-hards" that like to nub-farm, as they will earn less WP, than if they played against competitive players, with high-level gear. edit How about 1 WP for every 5000 isk? ex. Killing a free, all militia fit = 50WP Killing a 50,000isk fit = 50WP+10WP=60WP Killing a fit that costs 250,000isk= 50WP+50WP=100WP.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 131	Posted - 2012.09.22 16:04:00 - [2] - Quote The problem is, a new player is going to get that 175WP less often than a veteran player simply because it's much harder for them to kill someone with that type of gear. In other words, it would only end up compounding the problem because people with better gear would be getting that bonus more often.
Super Cargo Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 428	Posted - 2012.09.22 16:32:00 - [3] - Quote I think it is a solid idea. Parson does have a point though. Vet players will still be killing more often, and therefore will be gaining more xp more often. The counter argument is vets are already gaining way more xp based on their advanced fits and experience. it sounds almost like a bounty system to me, which would be cool. SP/ISK bonuses for killing high value (expensive) targets would add another layer of intrigue into the EVE universe. I say lets try it out.
Moochie Cricket SyNergy Gaming 143	Posted - 2012.09.22 16:49:00 - [4] - Quote What if you get more points depending on the discrepency of the loadouts. EX: A player with proto gear kills a militia loadout and gets 25wp. A player in proto gear who kills anothe proto player gets 50wp. And a player in militia gear who kills someone in proto gear gets 75wp.
Moonracer2000 Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 311	Posted - 2012.09.22 16:52:00 - [5] - Quote kill assist points would be nice. Any sort of tracking and scoring by kit value is unlikely. This is because once the player market goes live the value of items will fluctuate.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 131	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:17:00 - [6] - Quote Moochie Cricket wrote: What if you get more points depending on the discrepency of the loadouts. EX: A player with proto gear kills a militia loadout and gets 25wp. A player in proto gear who kills anothe proto player gets 50wp. And a player in militia gear who kills someone in proto gear gets 75wp. That's probably how they'd have to do it to avoid the problem I talked about above. The thing with that is this: Moonracer2000 wrote: kill assist points would be nice. Any sort of tracking and scoring by kit value is unlikely. This is because once the player market goes live the value of items will fluctuate. Plus there'd be some point at which having better gear became a liability when scoring WP (and possibly ISK)--something that would be pretty lame.
Ten-Sidhe Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 414	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:20:00 - [7] - Quote Maybe a sp/wp bonus for killing better gear then your using. Biggest difference is gun used and dropsuit. Could be calculated off meta level, or base cost(ccp set price based of minerals needed, actual price will vary, same number EvE bases insurance payouts on) This would give new players the bonus, but only give older(in game time) players bonus if using weak gear.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 131	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:23:00 - [8] - Quote Ten-Sidhe wrote: Maybe a sp/wp bonus for killing better gear then your using. Biggest difference is gun used and dropsuit. Could be calculated off meta level, or base cost(ccp set price based of minerals needed, actual price will vary, same number EvE bases insurance payouts on) This would give new players the bonus, but only give older(in game time) players bonus if using weak gear. That's not bad, but I still think you're going to hit a point where it's more beneficial to use worse gear than you have access too simply because the game is limiting your WP accrual based on your fitting--a situation that should be avoided like the plague.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:27:00 - [9] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Ten-Sidhe wrote: Maybe a sp/wp bonus for killing better gear then your using. Biggest difference is gun used and dropsuit. Could be calculated off meta level, or base cost(ccp set price based of minerals needed, actual price will vary, same number EvE bases insurance payouts on) This would give new players the bonus, but only give older(in game time) players bonus if using weak gear. That's not bad, but I still think you're going to hit a point where it's more beneficial to use worse gear than you have access too simply because the game is limiting your WP accrual based on your fitting--a situation that should be avoided like the plague. Not sure you'd be limited. Even if you have high-level gear, if you kill someone in high-level gear, you get more WP. If you kill a militia fit, you get less. Either way, you still get WP. I don't see a penalty for using proto gear.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 131	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:33:00 - [10] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: Parson Atreides wrote: Ten-Sidhe wrote: Maybe a sp/wp bonus for killing better gear then your using. Biggest difference is gun used and dropsuit. Could be calculated off meta level, or base cost(ccp set price based of minerals needed, actual price will vary, same number EvE bases insurance payouts on) This would give new players the bonus, but only give older(in game time) players bonus if using weak gear. That's not bad, but I still think you're going to hit a point where it's more beneficial to use worse gear than you have access too simply because the game is limiting your WP accrual based on your fitting--a situation that should be avoided like the plague. Not sure you'd be limited. Even if you have high-level gear, if you kill someone in high-level gear, you get more WP. If you kill a militia fit, you get less. Either way, you still get WP. I don't see a penalty for using proto gear. Are you talking about Sidhe's idea or your own original one? If you're talking about Sidhe's, then you'd only be getting more WP than normal if you killed someone with highER-level gear. Which would mean it's at least possible to intentionally gimp yourself to increase your WP gained, which seems like a very strange notion if you want to encourage people to progress to better stuff. If you're talking about your original idea, then I think my first post deals with that. You're going to have an even larger gap between new players and vets if you award a flat rate WP earned based on gear level of victim since it will always be easier for a well geared player of the same skill level to kill a player with good gear (relative to a poorly geared player of the same skill versus someone with good gear).

Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2047	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:39:00 - [11] - Quote I do like the idea of receiving more SP for killing higher tier suits with lower tear gear to help level up faster, I don't think it would be that great to have the bonus increasing WP however.
Drake Lyons Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 209	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:41:00 - [12] - Quote Once corporation battles, a real economy, faction warfare, and player driven contracts begin to enter the game, I think this will solve itself. Newer or more casual players will find themselves playing primarily against simialrly new or casual players. Why? Because the more veteran players will be taking part in some level of corporation warfare, which should offer significantly higher rewards than the general high-sec pub games and the like. There will undoubtedly be the occasional interloper, or even interloping corporation, but on the whole I doubt it's anything to worry about.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 131	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:42:00 - [13] - Quote Sleepy Zan wrote: I do like the idea of receiving more SP for killing higher tier suits with lower tear gear to help level up faster, I don't think it would be that great to have the bonus increasing WP however. Also the idea with the 75% more damage ... I'm just not feeling it the noobs shouldn't get that much of a crutch plus there gear isn't as expensive and that doesn't seem fair, I'm going to have to say no to that one.. I don't think anyone said anything about damage. If you're talking about this: Quote: ex: You do 75% of the damage, but only get assist...you earn 75% of the WP of the kill. (37 or 38 WP) He's talking about WP earned from damage done, not doing more damage based on fitting.
Sleepy Zan Internal Error. Negative-Feedback 2047	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:43:00 - [14] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: Sleepy Zan wrote: I do like the idea of receiving more SP for killing higher tier suits with lower tear gear to help level up faster, I don't think it would be that great to have the bonus increasing WP however. Also the idea with the 75% more damage ... I'm just not feeling it the noobs shouldn't get that much of a crutch plus there gear isn't as expensive and that doesn't seem fair, I'm going to have to say no to that one.. I don't think anyone said anything about damage. If you're talking about this: Quote: ex: You do 75% of the damage, but only get assist...you earn 75% of the WP of the kill. (37 or 38 WP) He's talking about WP earned from damage done, not doing more damage based on fitting. Ya sorry read it wrong facepalm
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:44:00 - [15] - Quote Parson Atreides wrote: mikegunnz wrote: Parson Atreides wrote: Ten-Sidhe wrote: Maybe a sp/wp bonus for killing better gear then your using. Biggest difference is gun used and dropsuit. Could be calculated off meta level, or base cost(ccp set price based of minerals needed, actual price will vary, same number EvE bases insurance payouts on) This would give new players the bonus, but only give older(in game time) players bonus if using weak gear. That's not bad, but I still think you're going to hit a point where it's more beneficial to use worse gear than you have access too simply because the game is limiting your WP accrual based on your fitting--a situation that should be avoided like the plague. Not sure you'd be limited. Even if you have high-level gear, if you kill someone in high-level gear, you get more WP. If you kill a militia fit, you get less. Either way, you still get WP. I don't see a penalty for using proto gear. Are you talking about Sidhe's idea or your own original one? If you're talking about Sidhe's, then you'd only be getting more WP than normal if you killed someone with highER-level gear. Which would mean it's at least possible to intentionally gimp yourself to increase your WP gained, which seems like a very strange notion if you want to encourage people to progress to better stuff. If you're talking about your original idea, then I think my first post deals with that. You're going to have an even larger gap between new players and vets if you award a flat rate WP earned based on gear level of victim since it will always be easier for a well geared player of the same skill level to kill a player with good gear (relative to a poorly geared player of the same skill versus someone with good gear). I was talking about my idea. I suppose there is some validity to your argument. But I'd say, this already happens right now. Place a skilled prototype vet in a match with newbies, they can easily go 20-1. They just earned 1000 WP. Some of the other players might go 10-4, 6-5, etc. The vet earned WAY more WP than they did. WIth my system, the new guys at least have a chance to earn a few extra points for getting some kills against a vet.
Parson Atreides Ahrendee Mercenaries Legacy Rising 131	Posted - 2012.09.22 17:52:00 - [16] - Quote mikegunnz wrote: I was talking about my idea. I suppose there is some validity to your argument. But I'd say, this already happens right now. Place a skilled prototype vet in a match with newbies, they can easily go 20-1. They just earned 1000 WP. Some of the other players might go 10-4, 6-5, etc. The vet earned WAY more WP than they did. WIth my system, the new guys at least have a chance to earn a few extra points for getting some kills against a vet. Well, it would be okay if there were only one guy in better gear on one side in the entire match, but that doesn't ever really happen. It's more likely there's a few on each side, and the vet gets like 1,200 WP (or whatever) and the new guy only gets like 600, so now the vet has 600 more WP (and subsequent SP) than the new guy under this system, rather than the previous 500 more (with a 20 kill for vet, 10 kill for noobie set up).
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.22 18:13:00 - [17] - Quote I posted something about this maybe a week ago, but it never went anywhere. No matter how hard I thought about it I realized no matter what you did you're going to open the door to exploitation and defeat the entire purpose. Then I thought about using some sort of weighted multiplyer. So if you go up against a high SP player with crap gear you still get your bonus, but they don't get a bonus for killing you with a militia fit. Yea, this would make it slower to spec into new categories as an older player but tough crap, this game is about specializing anyway. If you could come up with the proper algorithm the diminishing returns would even it out for everyone. One thing I think they should do for sure is award a bonus based on the opponents KDR. No matter what your gear or SP level you take out some with a high KDR you get bonus points. This way, high level players trying to screw around with crap fits to get bonuses will help anyone that can hunt them down. Also, high level players with uber fits trying to lolstomp noobs will also help out anyone able to kill them. This bonus should be awarded evenly to everyone that even gets and assist because it's not going to happen that often (which is why they have a high KDR...) and it's probably going to require a team effort so it's not fair to reward only the player who got in the last shot by sheer luck. This won't be a game breaker since, again, the fact that they have a very high KDR, whatever number everyone thinks is fair, means it is an achievement to take them down. Also, makes the super high level players more of an attractive target and that's the cost to be the boss.
RolyatDerTeufel D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 1648	Posted - 2012.09.22 18:26:00 - [18] - Quote WP based on Damage dealt would be awesome. it would actually have to give out too everyone that hit that enemy. Helps with those peole that like to ***** on the last of the kill, and they get final blow so they get the kill.
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.22 18:32:00 - [19] - Quote RolyatDerTeufel wrote: WP based on Damage dealt would be awesome. it would actually have to give out too everyone that hit that enemy. Helps with those peole that like to ***** on the last of the kill, and they get final blow so they get the kill. I hate that so much. I do it only when we're trying to deplete the clone supply since the team needs the kill. Otherwise I just wait and sometimes pick off an weakened target.
trigg808 Algintal Core Gallente Federation 7	Posted - 2012.09.22 18:39:00 - [20] - Quote The title should read "impatient vs patient" I've always found that the best way to play a game and compete with "vets" is to put the time in. Grind it out, gain tips from other players. Change the way you play. Maybe you're a logibro who sucks at the "logi" part. Maybe you're actually a better sniper. Maybe you're a sniper but can't figure out why you spend most of the match looking at chevrons tucked behind walls and barriers you could be awesome at AI/AV and be a huge asset to your team when STB rolls tanks.

Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.22 19:55:00 - [21] - Quote I'm usually in the grind it out camp but with this game's mechanics you can lose all your money on that grind very quickly. It does get a bit boring playing the same militia fit and dying a whole lot but I don't think this is all just being impatient. The stupid number of skills that do nothing but unlock better gear. You get into Assault II and you're feeling pretty good so you train up your weapons skills, shield upgrades and whatnot. Oops, now your suit can't fit the gear you just trained for so you drop your sidearm or lose some armor for a cpu upgrade. The first time you get into a firefight and start to reload, you're already lining up your pistol in your mind for the kill shot only realize too late why you died trying to ping a nanohive off the other guys helmet. A logi runs up and with only seconds to spare finds the mound of dirt 2 feet from the inside third of your left elbow 37 degrees off true north from that totally awesome scar you got on that camping trip a few years ago to bring you back...just in time for someone with a militia issued pea-shooter to hit the wall behind you sending a small chip of masonry hurtling in to your kneecap, taking away the 2 points of armor you came back with. You stare at the ground just long enough to see the logi take a round to the eye from some sniper that spent 15 minutes flying a dropship up to a 2 inch wide window ledge on the top of a building you'd never even noticed before and then high fiving himself on getting his one kill from his "wicked freakin sweet super-secret hidden sniper spot." So now you're getting 10-15k a match, going broke with a fit that's just an expensive way to turn to some kind of yellow flash paper like a vampire that just made a joke about Blade's mom. You're looking at all that SP for the next level on your suit and then double that to actually get to use all the cool stuff you trained for earlier. So you say screw it, fit some militia garbage, call down one of your infinite noobmobiles and try to ram it in to the face of some proto scout shotgunner strafing you at mach 2 and jumping around like a jackrabbit living downwind from a crack house that just burned down face before you fart too hard on the seat and explode. And did the guy that just jumped over your LEV and killed you with said shotgun go through all that? No, he drove a tank pre-nerf and got 50 kills per round. C'mon CCP. So many skills give you nothing for levels 2 and 3, not even some token 1% boost to turning speed or something? I'd be happy with a poster of Nicki Minaj for my quarters. But whatever, all that being said, I really do love this game. TL/DR------Bruce Willis was dead the whole movie, hahahaha you suck.
THUNDERGROOVE ZionTCD Legacy Rising 33	Posted - 2012.09.22 20:42:00 - [22] - Quote Would be cool if the ISK and SP you get per kill would be more if they were on a kill streak
Logi Bro ZionTCD Legacy Rising 836	Posted - 2012.09.22 20:56:00 - [23] - Quote I honestly don't understand how you think this will solve vet vs nub problems. A TRUE vet knows not to run in expensive gear all the time, and a true nub will run in the most expensive gear he can get all the time, thus this would help vets, and not nubs. This is more like a solution to get anyone that is stupid to ragequit the game.
mikegunnz Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 425	Posted - 2012.09.22 21:28:00 - [24] - Quote Most experienced players won't run expensive fits all the time. This is just ONE aspect to potentially help balance the game by making it accessible for new guys, and still deep for vets. Why not reward a player using militia gear for killing a guy using high end gear. If you don't like the example I gave, reduce the bonus. Instead of giving 125 additional points (1WP for every 2000isk) make it 50 additional WP (1 additional WP for every 5000 isk) They've dropped the HP differences on adv/proto suits, increased the cost of gear, reduced the % increases of skills, etc. This was done to help keep the game deep, but give newbies a fighting chance against the vets. A couple builds ago, a below average player could run proto/complex fit, and easily kill players in militia gear. (even if the militia player was more skilled) Now, the playing field is more leveled. Players win based on skill, more so than, skills/fits. This would just be one more aspect to helping balance the game. TBH, even for those that don't like THIS idea, you can't argue with the "assist points" idea. It's already implemented in BF3, and works well.


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