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Tank bawl thread! oh and dropships too.

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Goliath Raven Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.09.18 05:43:00 - [1] - Quote Ok, from a numbers point of view, the nerf took out about 32% of my tanks max ehp (after adapting it for the new max ehp) and increased the AV damage by 25%. This is in a Sagaris. It has hurt Gunnlogi and Sica worse and far worse respectively. These days a Sagaris is about like a Sica used to be, A gunnlogi is a bit worse off and you might as well field a Lav instead of a Sica, you will only survive at most two hits either way. The effects this has had on my as a Sagaris pilot: Income is in the negatives. -6 Million in about 3 days of gameplay. (I'v been fielding tanks regularly to try and get an idea of how much of a difference there is.) I am driven off by two people with swarm launchers fairly regularly although alone they are not much of a threat of killing me (In a Sagaris I can usually run away in time). I am killed by a forge gun on average once every 6 matches. (Thats at MOST a 1.2 Million isk winnings vs a 2.2 Million isk loss) I am engaged with enemy tanks FAR more rarely now. My kills have dropped significantly in battles (avg of 14 -20 to an avg of 6-12) I seem to be a prime target when I field my tank. Some of these are undoubtedly good, but some are obviously bad. The big one being that it is near impossible to make isk as a tank pilot now. If you field a tank it comes with a 2 million isk price tag and a GIANT "150 - 250 wp HERE!" sticker plastered all over the thing. For those who say that I should save up a few matches to buy my tank, that is arguing that tank piloting should be a hobby in the game and not a profession. Why could we not make the same argument about any class? Maybe we should all take our turns in logi suits to pay for our little assault hobby or AV hobby or sniper hobby? It may be interesting, but I don't think that is the way this game should be. Each profession should be able to make a living, when one falls below its ability to do so, balancing is required. I feel tanks have fallen below this line, and dropships are abysmal. A few questions I have for AV people now, specifically forge gunners: When you see a tank dropping into the battle field do you feel more intimidated or giddy? Be honest. How do you think an advanced tank on the battlefield (Suya or Sagaris) should make you feel in a reasonable combat simulator? How hard do you feel a tank is to kill now? Do you think you should be able to snipe with forge gun? And most of all, I was honest when tanks were op and said so, and asked that some of you voice your concern when the tank nerf came if it was too much. If you feel it is too much, please say so and let the devs know the need to make some SMALL changes this time to fix balance. I have a few ideas for changes that may help game balance and gameplay. Don't reduce the range of forge guns, just put a little bit of fire variance so they are not accurate all the way across the map. Adjust the damage of forge guns. 25% reduction was too much but a 25% boost on top of a 32% reduction in tank ehp is too much the other way. Lets find a happy balance. Either take away the 25% boost or give us back 5%-7% on all our resistance amps and maybe 2%-3% back to dcu's. Dropships need a base HP boost. Everyone I'v seen dies to one railgun turret blast, so now I just don't see them anymore. The shield nerf killed dropship pilots as few people seem to realize that the resistance amps were pretty much the only thing keeping those guys in the air. Make it so they can at least survive one swarm launcher! Jeeps need a bigger place on the field. Does anyone spec into the higher tier jeeps? If so what do you use them for? It seems to me that the number one use of jeeps is to place a command order on and get bonus points. Is there really no role that the jeep should be able to fill besides using a free one to rush into a objective or call in on top of a building to put a defend order on? Maybe we could actually make small blaster turrets do more dps than an assault rifle, that might help and just seems to make sense. Currently I won't put a blaster turret on my tank as a cycled missile launcher is MUCH more effective against everything. Oh and maybe give jeeps enough health to survive a AV grenade? Am I way off base on this? Am I just a crappy tank pilot? Let the flaming begin. I would appreciate some good counter points in the flames if you really do disagree though. tl;dr: Give tanks back half their resists (Less than half their lost life with the new and improved higher price tags) Give Dropships some love, they are abysmal now. Give LAV's some good blaster turrets and a bit of a health bump so they can actually survive a AV grenade. Make forge gun have fire variance so they cannot snipe at long range. Not enough to effect say a 75-100m shot on a tank but enough that they cannot snipe infantry and cant shoot a tank from 400m+ away. EDIT: For those wondering just how much ehp we are talking here, I wen't back and double checked my numbers and my math to make sure they were right and It turns out they were not. So, here is a run down of my previous fit and my new fit and how much It's been hurt. Previous fit: S = 5656 shield hp. A = 1149 armor hp. Rs = 73.5% Shield Resistance Ra = 14% Armor Resistance eHp=(S/(1-Rs/100))+(A/(1-Ra/100)) = 22,679.4 eHp. New fit: S = 7518 A = 1149 Rs = 36.18 Ra = 9 eHp = 13,042.6 (22,679.4-13,042.6)/22,679.4=0.42 So I was wrong, at first. It's actually a 42% drop in ehp. (It's good to work off of correct ehp formula)
nakaya indigene ZionTCD Legacy Rising 41	Posted - 2012.09.18 06:03:00 - [2] - Quote I agree in the respect that this is game built on space vehicles and that the game is centered around vehicles.. this game is straying FAR away from ccp's a future vision video.. vehicles in every scene. this is not COD or BF3. the rhetoric that ccp has been driving this whole time is each role has specific requirement on the battle field and that eve and dust are about gang warfare. the tank pilot needs infantry to cover him and vice versa.. but if there is no tank, or dropship or LAV then the balance of the game has indeed changed to sit on top of a mountain and snipe and swarm. I have been in Sooooooooo many games where these guys would not move from one location.. the dynamic of the battlefield has been disrupted. before this update. it was tank on tank, tanks blew up. lav on lav, lavs blowing up and a couple dropships. NOT what these people on the forums have been saying, about 1 tank wiping the floor with another whole team.. its like the frigate pilot complaining about a battle crustier being OP. STOP TURNING THIS GAME INTO AN INFANTRY GAME.
Goliath Raven Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.09.18 06:06:00 - [3] - Quote nakaya indigene wrote: I agree in the respect that this is game built on space vehicles and that the game is centered around vehicles.. this game is straying FAR away from ccp's a future vision video.. vehicles in every scene. this is not COD or BF3. the rhetoric that ccp has been driving this whole time is each role has specific requirement on the battle field and that eve and dust are about gang warfare. the tank pilot needs infantry to cover him and vice versa.. but if there is no tank, or dropship or LAV then the balance of the game has indeed changed to sit on top of a mountain and snipe and swarm. I have been in Sooooooooo many games where these guys would not move from one location.. the dynamic of the battlefield has been disrupted. before this update. it was tank on tank, tanks blew up. lav on lav, lavs blowing up and a couple dropships. NOT what these people on the forums have been saying, about 1 tank wiping the floor with another whole team.. its like the frigate pilot complaining about a battle crustier being OP. STOP TURNING THIS GAME INTO AN INFANTRY GAME. I do think tanks were OP pre this patch, I would clean up an entire team in my tank. However that was mainly because of the 25% nerf to AV. Now AV has that 25% back and a 32% drop in their preys hp. That is too much in the other direction. Small changes CCP.
nakaya indigene ZionTCD Legacy Rising 41	Posted - 2012.09.18 06:34:00 - [4] - Quote true true.. smaller changes and faster fix schedule.. they should probably look into it by playing the game more.
Patches The Hyena 204	Posted - 2012.09.18 07:02:00 - [5] - Quote As a dropship pilot I'm fairly disgusted with the patch. I lost 1200 eHP from the patch on my Myron, when I only had 5,200 eHP to begin with a loss of 1200 is huge! Add on the 20% damage bonus to swarms and its just laughable. I don't understand CCP's thpught process, you either nerf the OP thing or buff the underpowered thing. You don't do both and then accidentally nerf related things in the process and totally screw up what was a good balance between AV and Dropships. However about your statement that vehicle pilots should be able to earn a living, I'm unsure if I agree with this. Rewards definitely need work, dropship pilot rewards most of all, but should we really be able to earn replacement costs for vehicles in a match? It seems to me CCP expects corporations to fund vehicle pilots. In EVE capital ships are incredibly expensive and very difficult for the pilot to build and replace on his own, actually its impossible in most circumstances. This creates an atmosphere where corporations and alliances come together to fund cap ships for their pilots and I think this is what CCP is going for with vehicles in Dust. This will put a soft limit on vehicles in regular pub matches without limiting vehicle use in corp battles.
Lixet The Craniac Naloran Project 50	Posted - 2012.09.18 07:09:00 - [6] - Quote Quick and simple answers 1. Giddy, cause its a prime easy point target 2. Fear, or at least a sense of "oh crap" 3. Anything besides a marauder is easy to kill 4. (not forge) from experience and witness, yes 5. I dislike the tank nerf, as it removed the danger aspect of a tank far too greatly (more info to come when i edit)
The dark cloud Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1060	Posted - 2012.09.18 07:18:00 - [7] - Quote tanks vs Av where pretty much balanced last build. Av weapons did around the same damage as now and tanks had a good amount of resistance. And you could take them out and not just 1 man solo them as it is now. It should require teamwork on both sides. If one side is getting lazy they deserve to be punished be it the tank driver or the AV guys.
Kurumu Kuruno 6	Posted - 2012.09.18 07:26:00 - [8] - Quote You may not agree with me but after running about 6 matches in my Surya i came to the conslusion that CCP should either reduce splash damage of railgun or splash radius - not both.... this is my opinion.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.09.18 08:47:00 - [9] - Quote its an easy kill what u expect tho OP? most ppl on the beta are terrible so when u have a bunch of terrible ppl having to work to kill something of course they gonna moan i agree u dont nerf tanks and buff av at the same time thats just ******. its ****** how 1 forge gunner can solo a sargaris. CCP needs to balance this themselves and stop listening to ppl cuz its NEVER gonna be fully balanced how both sides want it. Find a spot u think is right and tell ppl nut up....or did CCP lose that HTFU mentality when they started making DUST? u know whats pathetic? i like bringing out my tank to fight other tanks......and guess what? my forge gunner solos any tank the enemy drops before mines can even get on the field.....BORRRRING i kept sayin if any team lets ONE tank run them over all game, hell even 2 tanks then thats a terrible team. 3-4 tanks then yea look into droppin a couple of ur own that only makes sense
Vickers S Grunt Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 67	Posted - 2012.09.18 11:26:00 - [10] - Quote Tanker's tears = best tears Why should 1 guy not be able to kill a tank on his own ? What game have u played where a tank was invulnerable to 1 guy ? Maby its time u adapted to the new playstyle ?

EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 11:35:00 - [11] - Quote Vickers S Grunt wrote: Tanker's tears = best tears Why should 1 guy not be able to kill a tank on his own ? What game have u played where a tank was invulnerable to 1 guy ? Maby its time u adapted to the new playstyle ? lol He thinks that its fine that a basic AV setup can kill a toptier proto tank Basic AV gear and milita should scratch the shields on the proto tank not kill it after 8 hits
Zerlathon Algintal Core Gallente Federation 213	Posted - 2012.09.18 11:42:00 - [12] - Quote The quickfix that has been implimented seems to be a quickfix to appease the numerous QQ threads about tanks. The tanks were never the issue imho, it was the mechanics of the AV weapons and the turrets that needed to be looked at. Hopefully, the next build will bring in an ammo count for vehicle mounted weapons and consistently working AV weapons (along with the range buff for forge guns), as I think that was all that was needed.
Tyas Borg Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 112	Posted - 2012.09.18 11:53:00 - [13] - Quote You seriously don't see the issue here?. Sure you've got it easy now with little to no threat against you.Of course your going to defend the current state of the game, it's made it so you can face roll matches. The decent players are steam rolling teams now as much as the tanks ever did, because there's nothing to keep them in check and when someone does call a tank in it turns into a turkey shoot. It amazes me quite frankly where all this AV has come from, considering it was so "Crap" last patch, yet people suddenly have tonnes of it now it's ridiculously OP. When it was balanced / required teamwork nobody gave a toss about it, they'd rather whine it was broken and spec into their AR's and DS's. Anybody with even the slightest Eve background would see that what they've done to vehicles is a joke. It's certainly not what I bought into when I saw the game being made. Frigates vs Battlecruisers. That's a pretty good analogy right there both for risk and investment. Yet all these CoD kiddies crying they can't take a tank out because they haven't specced to do so just don't see that. A lot of the people I see complaining about it didn't even have AV pre-nerf yet I bet they do now. It's pathetic, your all going to ruin this game and turn it into some bs spawn of Halo and CoD if you keep this crap up.
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:18:00 - [14] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Vickers S Grunt wrote: Tanker's tears = best tears Why should 1 guy not be able to kill a tank on his own ? What game have u played where a tank was invulnerable to 1 guy ? Maby its time u adapted to the new playstyle ? lol He thinks that its fine that a basic AV setup can kill a toptier proto tank Basic AV gear and milita should scratch the shields on the proto tank not kill it after 8 hits If a tank can't get away or find the guy then they defiantly should die after 8 swarms hit them. Do any of you work for CCP? if not then stop making assumptions about CCP vision for this game. They may not want people to be able to field multiple tanks every match but that won't matter when we connect with EVE and ISK transfers can occur. A single player bringing in a tank every match should NOT be profitable. HAV drivers did this to them selves not all but some by perching them selves on mountains and sniping with a railgun and by going 30-0 every game. When there are tanks on the field almost every game then people adjust just like last build when everyone got the million SP a lot of people put it towards AV. The only true skill as a HAV driver is going HAV vs HAV and winning or creating a build that is very difficult for AV specialists to destroy. I don't get the argument that AV is too effective it has almost no use against infantry so its only use is against vehicles and it is effective. What would be the point of AV weapons if they can't destroy vehicles?
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:18:00 - [15] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: You seriously don't see the issue here?. Sure you've got it easy now with little to no threat against you.Of course your going to defend the current state of the game, it's made it so you can face roll matches. The decent players are steam rolling teams now as much as the tanks ever did, because there's nothing to keep them in check and when someone does call a tank in it turns into a turkey shoot. It amazes me quite frankly where all this AV has come from, considering it was so "Crap" last patch, yet people suddenly have tonnes of it now it's ridiculously OP. When it was balanced / required teamwork nobody gave a toss about it, they'd rather whine it was broken and spec into their AR's and DS's. Anybody with even the slightest Eve background would see that what they've done to vehicles is a joke. It's certainly not what I bought into when I saw the game being made. Frigates vs Battlecruisers. That's a pretty good analogy right there both for risk and investment. Yet all these CoD kiddies crying they can't take a tank out because they haven't specced to do so just don't see that. A lot of the people I see complaining about it didn't even have AV pre-nerf yet I bet they do now. It's pathetic, your all going to ruin this game and turn it into some bs spawn of Halo and CoD if you keep this crap up. Well its gone from tanks and infantry to pure infantry tbh With the simplest of AV builds now able to put a serious dent or even kill a proto tank and the tank cannot even fill the support role Last build tankers were strong but proto AV was aboout much more, since the SP/ISK reduction but also the ISK hike for everything and its still easier to train for a tank than AV then ppl have been using milita stuff for longer but also sticking with infantry more or going tanks so they make profit This hotfix has gone from one end to the other now so the tank which was feared is no longer feared and can be kept away by 1 AV guy
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:22:00 - [16] - Quote STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Vickers S Grunt wrote: Tanker's tears = best tears Why should 1 guy not be able to kill a tank on his own ? What game have u played where a tank was invulnerable to 1 guy ? Maby its time u adapted to the new playstyle ? lol He thinks that its fine that a basic AV setup can kill a toptier proto tank Basic AV gear and milita should scratch the shields on the proto tank not kill it after 8 hits If a tank can't get away or find the guy then they defiantly should die after 8 swarms hit them. Do any of you work for CCP? if not then stop making assumptions about CCP vision for this game. They may not want people to be able to field multiple tanks every match but that won't matter when we connect with EVE and ISK transfers can occur. A single player bringing in a tank every match should NOT be profitable. HAV drivers did this to them selves not all but some by perching them selves on mountains and sniping with a railgun and by going 30-0 every game. When there are tanks on the field almost every game then people adjust just like last build when everyone got the million SP a lot of people put it towards AV. The only true skill as a HAV driver is going HAV vs HAV and winning or creating a build that is very difficult for AV specialists to destroy. I don't get the argument that AV is too effective it has almost no use against infantry so its only use is against vehicles and it is effective. What would be the point of AV weapons if they can't destroy vehicles? 8 milita swarms should kill a proto tank lol no Milita is ther because it just is but the DPS it does is laughable and so it should be, its ment to be a tank not a paper tank
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:24:00 - [17] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Vickers S Grunt wrote: Tanker's tears = best tears Why should 1 guy not be able to kill a tank on his own ? What game have u played where a tank was invulnerable to 1 guy ? Maby its time u adapted to the new playstyle ? lol He thinks that its fine that a basic AV setup can kill a toptier proto tank Basic AV gear and milita should scratch the shields on the proto tank not kill it after 8 hits If a tank can't get away or find the guy then they defiantly should die after 8 swarms hit them. Do any of you work for CCP? if not then stop making assumptions about CCP vision for this game. They may not want people to be able to field multiple tanks every match but that won't matter when we connect with EVE and ISK transfers can occur. A single player bringing in a tank every match should NOT be profitable. HAV drivers did this to them selves not all but some by perching them selves on mountains and sniping with a railgun and by going 30-0 every game. When there are tanks on the field almost every game then people adjust just like last build when everyone got the million SP a lot of people put it towards AV. The only true skill as a HAV driver is going HAV vs HAV and winning or creating a build that is very difficult for AV specialists to destroy. I don't get the argument that AV is too effective it has almost no use against infantry so its only use is against vehicles and it is effective. What would be the point of AV weapons if they can't destroy vehicles? 8 milita swarms should kill a proto tank lol no Milita is ther because it just is but the DPS it does is laughable and so it should be, its ment to be a tank not a paper tank So its meant to survive 32 missiles that do 300 damage each?
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:28:00 - [18] - Quote STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Vickers S Grunt wrote: Tanker's tears = best tears Why should 1 guy not be able to kill a tank on his own ? What game have u played where a tank was invulnerable to 1 guy ? Maby its time u adapted to the new playstyle ? lol He thinks that its fine that a basic AV setup can kill a toptier proto tank Basic AV gear and milita should scratch the shields on the proto tank not kill it after 8 hits If a tank can't get away or find the guy then they defiantly should die after 8 swarms hit them. Do any of you work for CCP? if not then stop making assumptions about CCP vision for this game. They may not want people to be able to field multiple tanks every match but that won't matter when we connect with EVE and ISK transfers can occur. A single player bringing in a tank every match should NOT be profitable. HAV drivers did this to them selves not all but some by perching them selves on mountains and sniping with a railgun and by going 30-0 every game. When there are tanks on the field almost every game then people adjust just like last build when everyone got the million SP a lot of people put it towards AV. The only true skill as a HAV driver is going HAV vs HAV and winning or creating a build that is very difficult for AV specialists to destroy. I don't get the argument that AV is too effective it has almost no use against infantry so its only use is against vehicles and it is effective. What would be the point of AV weapons if they can't destroy vehicles? 8 milita swarms should kill a proto tank lol no Milita is ther because it just is but the DPS it does is laughable and so it should be, its ment to be a tank not a paper tank So its meant to survive 32 missiles that do 300 damage each? Yea because no one is going to stick around waiting for them to fire 32missiles which would take like 5mins and by then the damage which they may do a booster can repair or they could just move But because of the SL buff milita SL is fine to use now, why skill up when you can solo a tank with milita
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:32:00 - [19] - Quote Every EVE player tells me to adapt or die when I'v suggested making changes to a weapon or whatever so if you can't afford to field tanks every game then... adapt or die?
TheInfectedOne 18	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:42:00 - [20] - Quote Hi, forge gunner here. I would always get excited when I saw a tank but before the hot fix it was pointless to field even an advanced forge gun with damage boosters because the movement speed of the heavy suit was such crap, tanks owned the battlefield even with a squad of us rolling with forge guns. Now after the hot fix I still get excited to see tanks but I hope very time that it's going to be a higher end tank so that it's a challange, I can take out a basic lvl tank in a couple shots with a proto forge gun without any real danger but the higher end tanks still manage to kill me if I don't have at least another forge gunner and a logi repping and dropping hives. Swarm launchers are a serious issue that people either love or hate since this hot fix, personally I believe that they should be made into heavy weapons because I agree it's ridiculous that I can take out tanks with a militia SL, a couple AV grenades, and a scout suit due to being able to run circles around said tank (not that it's entirely my fault if the tank doesn't have any support and he's going lone wolf). If they were made into a heavy weapon it would balance the AV/Vehicle interaction a little more. As far as the tweak goes for tanks resists and damages, I think it's fair since they are rolling battle stations and after the new build they are supposed to be getting more mods to boost resistances, turn speed, and whatnot. We will have to wait and see. I have seen a few posts calling for a LAV buff, all I have to say to that is ARE YOU SERIOUS!? The militia model is a FREE battle jeep meant for fast insertion into a battle/objective, or a quick exit when being overrun. It's not meant to be this super awesome nimble battle hardened super jeep with a cow catcher on the front so you can do nothing except spam missiles and try to run mercs down while not having to worry about an AV guy waiting in ambush. Yes the advanced forge gun takes one out in 1 shot, it's a mini rail gun on a slow merc. If you want an LAV that has a little more beef to it, spec and buy one like the tanks and dropsuits have to do. All in all I think the hot fix was a step in the right direction towards fixing the AV/Vehicle interaction on the field, but it could still use a little more tweaking. We will have to wait and see how the new build changes things. Cheers.

EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:45:00 - [21] - Quote Already done it but unlike you i didnt QQ for a ultrameganerf to tanks to turn DUST into COD
Vickers S Grunt Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 67	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:53:00 - [22] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: You seriously don't see the issue here?. Sure you've got it easy now with little to no threat against you.Of course your going to defend the current state of the game, it's made it so you can face roll matches. The decent players are steam rolling teams now as much as the tanks ever did, because there's nothing to keep them in check and when someone does call a tank in it turns into a turkey shoot. It amazes me quite frankly where all this AV has come from, considering it was so "Crap" last patch, yet people suddenly have tonnes of it now it's ridiculously OP. When it was balanced / required teamwork nobody gave a toss about it, they'd rather whine it was broken and spec into their AR's and DS's. Anybody with even the slightest Eve background would see that what they've done to vehicles is a joke. It's certainly not what I bought into when I saw the game being made. Frigates vs Battlecruisers. That's a pretty good analogy right there both for risk and investment. Yet all these CoD kiddies crying they can't take a tank out because they haven't specced to do so just don't see that. A lot of the people I see complaining about it didn't even have AV pre-nerf yet I bet they do now. It's pathetic, your all going to ruin this game and turn it into some bs spawn of Halo and CoD if you keep this crap up. Played eve for 9 years m8 and i am still in the top 0.01% after nearly 2 years of not playing so i think i have more than the slightest eve background Sounds to me like u are just butt hurt at losing your "iwin" button
Tyas Borg Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 112	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:54:00 - [23] - Quote I was talking with Pezley Mcdoff last night about his Forge and we were testing it's damage output. The reason I mention his name is that he's one of the few AV guys opinions I respect as he was one of the few to kill me pre patch. Testing last night in a match against him, 3 shots takes me into armour on my shield tanks..... Sure before when he got me he was working in tandem with another Forge gunner but isn't that the idea?. People field a dedicated AV squad to deal with the threat. I wish more people thought like this instead of the usual, "Waaah!, I can't solo a tank like BF3!! NERF NAO!!"
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 12:58:00 - [24] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: I was talking with Pezley Mcdoff last night about his Forge and we were testing it's damage output. The reason I mention his name is that he's one of the few AV guys opinions I respect as he was one of the few to kill me pre patch. Testing last night in a match against him, 3 shots takes me into armour on my shield tanks..... Sure before when he got me he was working in tandem with another Forge gunner but isn't that the idea?. People field a dedicated AV squad to deal with the threat. I wish more people thought like this instead of the usual, "Waaah!, I can't solo a tank like BF3!! NERF NAO!!" Yea BF3 used to take a couple of oragnized ppl to take a tank The they made mines be spotted which is fail, jav was also broke plus the tank had a weak spot which seemed inconsistant half the time Then the patch made it out of paper and gave buffs to the AV so it was dead easy to solo
Sees-Too-Much 332	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:17:00 - [25] - Quote Some quick math shows that where before it would take four militia swarm hits to kill my Myron, now it would take three. OP mentions he lost 30% of his Sagaris's eHP. Assuming the standard 14k eHP benchmark he's gone from surviving 12 swarm hits to surviving eight. The difference in survivability isn't that huge compared to before, yet vehicles are dying in droves. What's really changed is that people are actually fighting them now. Used to be if I fielded a Myron I'd run into a total of two or three people on the entire map actually trying to take me down. Now I'm faced with at least two at any given time or place on the map, and more if I go to a high enough elevation that most of the map can see me. Basically all those people with their militia swarm launchers are doing what they could easily have done before if they'd ever bothered to actually try. So my view on the nerf: meh.
Kurumu Kuruno 6	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:27:00 - [26] - Quote Explain me on thing: when you write here like "hotfix is great cause tank driver snipe 30-0 with railgun" you want us to buy that crap? We are not asking to increase railgun damage output, return turret turning speed of whatever! We are not talking about that damage at all. What we are talking about is armor and shield (+resistance). Cause now as it was written on forum here Surya/Sagaris is like Sica/Soma. Militia Swarm Launcher should just scratch shields or ultimately take them off. So stop putting that crap about HAVs drivers snipping with railgun cause it is not issue now. Not at all. P.S.: Feel free to argue
OG DonHel 65	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:29:00 - [27] - Quote Tyas Borg wrote: You seriously don't see the issue here?. Sure you've got it easy now with little to no threat against you.Of course your going to defend the current state of the game, it's made it so you can face roll matches. The decent players are steam rolling teams now as much as the tanks ever did, because there's nothing to keep them in check and when someone does call a tank in it turns into a turkey shoot. It amazes me quite frankly where all this AV has come from, considering it was so "Crap" last patch, yet people suddenly have tonnes of it now it's ridiculously OP. When it was balanced / required teamwork nobody gave a toss about it, they'd rather whine it was broken and spec into their AR's and DS's. Anybody with even the slightest Eve background would see that what they've done to vehicles is a joke. It's certainly not what I bought into when I saw the game being made. Frigates vs Battlecruisers. That's a pretty good analogy right there both for risk and investment. Yet all these CoD kiddies crying they can't take a tank out because they haven't specced to do so just don't see that. A lot of the people I see complaining about it didn't even have AV pre-nerf yet I bet they do now. It's pathetic, your all going to ruin this game and turn it into some bs spawn of Halo and CoD if you keep this crap up. The AV was there before... it just got pwnd before it could even dent most HAV... There is absolutly no reason people should be riding a tank every damn minute of every damn match either... I dont care wth you say, it is just LOL stupid imo, sure tanks got hit a little to hard and should be given a little bit of its status back.. but regardless.. 1 guy should be able to take out your tank, there are many RL examples of this having happened in the past, so it is not something unreal or out of the imagination.. however he should have to work for taking out that tank, which is why we needed a balance.. because before AV was so **** that you had to lob and lob and lob more crap at the tank until he just got pissed off and splash damaged you..ccp is on the right track, they will scale this nerf back some I am sure.. just remember YOU CAN NOT BE INVINCIBLE, 1 MAN SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE OPOSING TEAM WITH LITTLE TO NO RISK.. our suits cost isk to ya know
Kurumu Kuruno 6	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:33:00 - [28] - Quote OG DonHel wrote: Tyas Borg wrote: You seriously don't see the issue here?. Sure you've got it easy now with little to no threat against you.Of course your going to defend the current state of the game, it's made it so you can face roll matches. The decent players are steam rolling teams now as much as the tanks ever did, because there's nothing to keep them in check and when someone does call a tank in it turns into a turkey shoot. It amazes me quite frankly where all this AV has come from, considering it was so "Crap" last patch, yet people suddenly have tonnes of it now it's ridiculously OP. When it was balanced / required teamwork nobody gave a toss about it, they'd rather whine it was broken and spec into their AR's and DS's. Anybody with even the slightest Eve background would see that what they've done to vehicles is a joke. It's certainly not what I bought into when I saw the game being made. Frigates vs Battlecruisers. That's a pretty good analogy right there both for risk and investment. Yet all these CoD kiddies crying they can't take a tank out because they haven't specced to do so just don't see that. A lot of the people I see complaining about it didn't even have AV pre-nerf yet I bet they do now. It's pathetic, your all going to ruin this game and turn it into some bs spawn of Halo and CoD if you keep this crap up. The AV was there before... it just got pwnd before it could even dent most HAV... There is absolutly no reason people should be riding a tank every damn minute of every damn match either... I dont care wth you say, it is just LOL stupid imo, sure tanks got hit a little to hard and should be given a little bit of its status back.. but regardless.. 1 guy should be able to take out your tank, there are many RL examples of this having happened in the past, so it is not something unreal or out of the imagination.. however he should have to work for taking out that tank, which is why we needed a balance.. because before AV was so **** that you had to lob and lob and lob more crap at the tank until he just got pissed off and splash damaged you..ccp is on the right track, they will scale this nerf back some I am sure.. just remember YOU CAN NOT BE INVINCIBLE, 1 MAN SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE OPOSING TEAM WITH LITTLE TO NO RISK.. our suits cost isk to ya know Dude you shouting mostly roaring about that one man shouldn't wipe whole team. Okey. No more solo HAV victory. But dude is it fair that one man in hav shouldn't kill all but one man on foot with swarm should? Maybe i'm just kinda hard-thinking.... Explain?
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:34:00 - [29] - Quote OG DonHel wrote: Tyas Borg wrote: You seriously don't see the issue here?. Sure you've got it easy now with little to no threat against you.Of course your going to defend the current state of the game, it's made it so you can face roll matches. The decent players are steam rolling teams now as much as the tanks ever did, because there's nothing to keep them in check and when someone does call a tank in it turns into a turkey shoot. It amazes me quite frankly where all this AV has come from, considering it was so "Crap" last patch, yet people suddenly have tonnes of it now it's ridiculously OP. When it was balanced / required teamwork nobody gave a toss about it, they'd rather whine it was broken and spec into their AR's and DS's. Anybody with even the slightest Eve background would see that what they've done to vehicles is a joke. It's certainly not what I bought into when I saw the game being made. Frigates vs Battlecruisers. That's a pretty good analogy right there both for risk and investment. Yet all these CoD kiddies crying they can't take a tank out because they haven't specced to do so just don't see that. A lot of the people I see complaining about it didn't even have AV pre-nerf yet I bet they do now. It's pathetic, your all going to ruin this game and turn it into some bs spawn of Halo and CoD if you keep this crap up. The AV was there before... it just got pwnd before it could even dent most HAV... There is absolutly no reason people should be riding a tank every damn minute of every damn match either... I dont care wth you say, it is just LOL stupid imo, sure tanks got hit a little to hard and should be given a little bit of its status back.. but regardless.. 1 guy should be able to take out your tank, there are many RL examples of this having happened in the past, so it is not something unreal or out of the imagination.. however he should have to work for taking out that tank, which is why we needed a balance.. because before AV was so **** that you had to lob and lob and lob more crap at the tank until he just got pissed off and splash damaged you..ccp is on the right track, they will scale this nerf back some I am sure.. just remember YOU CAN NOT BE INVINCIBLE, 1 MAN SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE OPOSING TEAM WITH LITTLE TO NO RISK.. our suits cost isk to ya know You cannot use RL example We do not have the ability to plant a bomb under the road and wait for the tank 1 guy with basic AV should not be able to solo a proto tank
Vickers S Grunt Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 67	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:44:00 - [30] - Quote I whish i could draw or use photoshop realy well ...its just i have this image of me and the other 90% of dust mercs bathing in a shower of tankers tears whith a grin on my face as as thay fall in shower from tank heaven PS might actualy start playing again now . PPS One guy SHOULD be able to take out anything given the right situashon and the right gear after all i could take out a bs in a frigate in eve whith a bit of luck .

Kurumu Kuruno 6	Posted - 2012.09.18 13:56:00 - [31] - Quote Vickers S Grunt wrote: I whish i could draw or use photoshop realy well ...its just i have this image of me and the other 90% of dust mercs bathing in a shower of tankers tears whith a grin on my face as as thay fall in shower from tank heaven PS might actualy start playing again now . PPS One guy SHOULD be able to take out anything given the right situashon and the right gear after all i could take out a bs in a frigate in eve whith a bit of luck . There is no place for luck on the battlefield. And you said right "given the right situation and the right gear". Not the militia gear vs proto HAV.
Vickers S Grunt Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 67	Posted - 2012.09.18 14:01:00 - [32] - Quote Kurumu Kuruno wrote: Vickers S Grunt wrote: I whish i could draw or use photoshop realy well ...its just i have this image of me and the other 90% of dust mercs bathing in a shower of tankers tears whith a grin on my face as as thay fall in shower from tank heaven PS might actualy start playing again now . PPS One guy SHOULD be able to take out anything given the right situashon and the right gear after all i could take out a bs in a frigate in eve whith a bit of luck . There is no place for luck on the battlefield. And you said right "given the right situation and the right gear". Not the militia gear vs proto HAV. The right gear in this case is any a swarm launcher or a forge gun BTW milita swarm has exact same damage as standerd swarm and the proto hav is a blackopps not maruader So buy that logic a standerd swarm should not hurt a advanced hav ps And again yes a milita swarm should be capable of taking out any tank whith reloads imagine if u will a tank thats stuck lets say between two boxes/hills whatever . Now buy your logic i should never be able to kill him no matter how much he fucks up or how well i use the gear that i have (which is desined to kill tanks ) So whats the point of having the milita gear in the game ?? Luck = chance or probabilaty and it has a place everywhere no good commander would ever make a plan based on it but nether would thay ignore the chance of it all going wrong
Kengfa 138	Posted - 2012.09.18 14:23:00 - [33] - Quote The effect this would have had if you aren't an idiot: You survive 5-8 hits. You don't move into combat alone like a moron. You learn how to fit your tank for what you need. Not one fit, suits all. You don't get 40 kills a game while you're drunk.
Wakko03 Better Hide R Die 134	Posted - 2012.09.18 14:45:00 - [34] - Quote This is so much fail, nobody is taking out a proto tank with militia grade gear....... VIDEO or it didn't happen. That unlimited ammo and gas / energy /power still working out for you, my forge only has 18 shots before I am out of ammo, and 3 AV grenades.....which are primarily for the 2 LAVs that are determined to run my fat suit wearing tuckus over on the way to any battle with the tank, and an smg to deal with the scout suits gimmicking their shield recharge while throwing out an endless supply of thukker grenades......while my fat suit can run for maybe 5 seconds before being tired. You all seemed to keep your mouths shut when AV took a 25% hit, I have seen more games whereby a tank did stomp the yard, the same tank for many games....oh you had to drop some isk to pull out your talent - I can kill anything but nobody better scratch the shields on my baby; so have I, I spent close to 12mil in suits and skill books in order to live long enough to even get a shot off at a tank. Does the tanks aim go to bullplop when they are hit.....no, does a forge gunner look at the sky when hit, yes....can a forge gunnner aim....no hip fire for the win. Can snipers pick off the driver or operator of your missle turrets? Did you have 2 dedicated logistics using a repair tool on your tank as the only fat suited heavy with a forge gun capable of doing damage to a proto or advanced tank? Even then I only lasted long enough to get the tank down to armor, By the time we respawned the tank was on the far side of the map and its replacement was front and center... ie the other tank, while a third was shooting down the RDV carry someones LAV. Lets talk SP.... still having your 150,000 SP + games as a tank driver? Because you are so greedy and neurotic you drive around the battlefield not really helping the team, that is until all installations are destroyed, then you focus on RDV's destroying any other vehicle the enemy fields, before it even hits the ground. What about the tankers response to anyone around the time of the AV nerf..... get your whole team to shot at us and we die....you have to wait to make any judgements because you don't have E-warfare items.....get good.....you are whinning? Wow has the pendellum swung the other way and once again hypocrisy is the order of the day. A ancillary effect, the enemy team getting stomped pulls out whatever suit lets them stay in the game but reduces their cost, further robbing the tankers fellow team mates of points, because it does work along the lines of the gear arrayed against you. The only way that Militia gear is bringing down tanks as easily as most of you are describing is the fact that 12 to 14 people are probably throwing grenades at you, but you don't know because with that many being tossed the beta servers don't show them all. Take your lumps, AV nerf lasted 3 1/2 weeks, you've only been slightly unreasonably inconvenienced for about a full week..... oh and to those that are pointing out numbers of players dropping since the tank nerf..... I wonder what real life correlation can be garnered from this, didn't school and university start up? And I figure the hit to the games numbers is just that, kids going back to school and having to study.....but what are the chances I could be this right..... don't forget borderlands 2 just got released at midnight.
Shadows Maker Seituoda Taskforce Command Caldari State 129	Posted - 2012.09.18 14:52:00 - [35] - Quote Calm down peeps, the balance between Tanks & AVs is not done yet why are you arguing! its going to change next build so wait till then and see what will happen. NO ONE is saying the current situation of HAVs and AVs perfect or balanced but it needs few tweaks to make it so, lets just wait for the next fix and test it again hopefully we will be done with Tanks vs AVs because honestly i feel this problem is dragging down the fix on other issues like Hit Detection and Guns balance.
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.09.18 15:09:00 - [36] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: Already done it but unlike you i didnt QQ for a ultrameganerf to tanks to turn DUST into COD Search my posts I've never asked for a tank "nerf" I have however suggested changes including not having infinite ammo and destructible small turrets. I never thought tanks were an issue last build because I had protoswarms for armor tanks and protoforge for shield tanks. I however I did start the thread that got REs nerfed
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 15:16:00 - [37] - Quote STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Already done it but unlike you i didnt QQ for a ultrameganerf to tanks to turn DUST into COD Search my posts I've never asked for a tank "nerf" I have however suggested changes including not having infinite ammo and destructible small turrets. I never thought tanks were an issue last build because I had protoswarms for armor tanks and protoforge for shield tanks. I however start the thread that got REs nerfed I already asked for that change to tanks well before you, you hopped on my bandwagon And no you didnt
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.09.18 15:29:00 - [38] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Already done it but unlike you i didnt QQ for a ultrameganerf to tanks to turn DUST into COD Search my posts I've never asked for a tank "nerf" I have however suggested changes including not having infinite ammo and destructible small turrets. I never thought tanks were an issue last build because I had protoswarms for armor tanks and protoforge for shield tanks. I however I did start the thread that got REs nerfed I already asked for that change to tanks well before you, you hopped on my bandwagon And no you didnt Infinite Ammo Thread Small Turret Destruction RE Nerf
EnglishSnake Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 1012	Posted - 2012.09.18 15:33:00 - [39] - Quote STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: STB-stlcarlos989 EV wrote: EnglishSnake wrote: Already done it but unlike you i didnt QQ for a ultrameganerf to tanks to turn DUST into COD Search my posts I've never asked for a tank "nerf" I have however suggested changes including not having infinite ammo and destructible small turrets. I never thought tanks were an issue last build because I had protoswarms for armor tanks and protoforge for shield tanks. I however I did start the thread that got REs nerfed I already asked for that change to tanks well before you, you hopped on my bandwagon And no you didnt Infinite Ammo Thread Small Turret Destruction RE Nerf https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=28015 Also im the one who has given 25pts for spawning
OG DonHel 65	Posted - 2012.09.18 16:04:00 - [40] - Quote EnglishSnake wrote: OG DonHel wrote: Tyas Borg wrote: You seriously don't see the issue here?. Sure you've got it easy now with little to no threat against you.Of course your going to defend the current state of the game, it's made it so you can face roll matches. The decent players are steam rolling teams now as much as the tanks ever did, because there's nothing to keep them in check and when someone does call a tank in it turns into a turkey shoot. It amazes me quite frankly where all this AV has come from, considering it was so "Crap" last patch, yet people suddenly have tonnes of it now it's ridiculously OP. When it was balanced / required teamwork nobody gave a toss about it, they'd rather whine it was broken and spec into their AR's and DS's. Anybody with even the slightest Eve background would see that what they've done to vehicles is a joke. It's certainly not what I bought into when I saw the game being made. Frigates vs Battlecruisers. That's a pretty good analogy right there both for risk and investment. Yet all these CoD kiddies crying they can't take a tank out because they haven't specced to do so just don't see that. A lot of the people I see complaining about it didn't even have AV pre-nerf yet I bet they do now. It's pathetic, your all going to ruin this game and turn it into some bs spawn of Halo and CoD if you keep this crap up. The AV was there before... it just got pwnd before it could even dent most HAV... There is absolutly no reason people should be riding a tank every damn minute of every damn match either... I dont care wth you say, it is just LOL stupid imo, sure tanks got hit a little to hard and should be given a little bit of its status back.. but regardless.. 1 guy should be able to take out your tank, there are many RL examples of this having happened in the past, so it is not something unreal or out of the imagination.. however he should have to work for taking out that tank, which is why we needed a balance.. because before AV was so **** that you had to lob and lob and lob more crap at the tank until he just got pissed off and splash damaged you..ccp is on the right track, they will scale this nerf back some I am sure.. just remember YOU CAN NOT BE INVINCIBLE, 1 MAN SHOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO WIPE OUT AN ENTIRE OPOSING TEAM WITH LITTLE TO NO RISK.. our suits cost isk to ya know You cannot use RL example We do not have the ability to plant a bomb under the road and wait for the tank 1 guy with basic AV should not be able to solo a proto tank I have yet to see a proto tank get taken out by a solo noob swarm.. proof or didnt happen... or the driver fell asleep.. or wait, maybe he didnt go " hey team, theres a swarm on that mountain that keeps ducking in and out yet I cant get a hit on him, sniper please assist" because from what I understand, that guy would need to release 8-10 swarm volleys with a slow reload in between volleys.. plenty of time to react..

Corban Lahnder ZionTCD Legacy Rising 158	Posted - 2012.09.18 16:38:00 - [41] - Quote All these things are here to make you think twice about putting your hard earned isk on the line. When your fighting over real facilities in low sec null sec then you can pull out the big guns, as the FW Null secers will be paying top dollar for your time. Clearly if npc matches and TDM is not worth the risk to your tank dont use it. But thank you for the constructive post Op(Heartfelt not sacastic). The only way meaningful changes will be made is if we can have a civil open dialogue about these changes.
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.09.18 16:58:00 - [42] - Quote Separate the driver from the main gun, and then buff HAVs and AV back up to E3 build stats. Oh, and limited ammo counts.
Goliath Raven Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 80	Posted - 2012.09.18 17:29:00 - [43] - Quote Corban Lahnder wrote: All these things are here to make you think twice about putting your hard earned isk on the line. When your fighting over real facilities in low sec null sec then you can pull out the big guns, as the FW Null secers will be paying top dollar for your time. Clearly if npc matches and TDM is not worth the risk to your tank dont use it. But thank you for the constructive post Op(Heartfelt not sacastic). The only way meaningful changes will be made is if we can have a civil open dialogue about these changes. You're most welcome. And thank you for your civility as well! I do think we have to be very cautious about looking to the future of the game when trying to balance it now. It's true that this game will go through a LOT of changes before launch but ccp has to balance the game through all these stages to get adequate beta testing of all aspects of the game. People are not using dropships and therefor bugs/exploits/quirks/feedback in using dropships are possibly being missed. The same was happening for AV a few weeks ago, the same will happen to tanks. We need to strive to encourage a diverse community now to adequately test all the current aspects of the game so CCP can move forward off a solid base with lots of constructive feedback. In the end tanks will need to be adjusted to work balance with new equipment and new classes and new vehicles. However looking at changes in the future is not an excuse to neglect balance today. Eventually there will possibly be a Titan class vehicle in this game that will cost a billion or more isk and be impervious to all ground troops but likely unable to damage ground troops effectively as well. A kind of mobile anti-tank/anti-air platform. As a Titan in Eve is impervious to all but the highest damaging of ships but can't really hurt anything smaller then a battlecruiser for crap. These are the kinds of vehicles that should be corp sponsored. Something that can be countered by a few AV grenades or a forge gun will never be corp sponsored, Is there any reason you would sponsor a tank right now? If another tank falls on the field you can just send two forge guns at it. That's less resources required to effectively counter against a tank than another tank crew now anyway (3 seats). If you field your tank because of overwhelming assault builds, chances are a few of them will have AV grenades or be able to switch to forge at supply depot and your tank is useless now. As it stands, if I am commanding a corp side in battle, tanks have no place, take out two or three free LAVs instead. Same goes for dropships, currently a waste of isk. That being said, I will still continue to look for a good way to use tanks in current build.


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