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Gooly
26
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is gonna be a long one, but this is a beta so here's some feedback. First off, I absolutely believe that in their current form tanks are OP. Secondly, I think they are an awesome aspect of gameplay and ohmygod CCP don't screw them up. So here we go.
Most of the cries about tanks being OP come from people that really don't understand what is and is not OP. Just because it killed you doesn't mean it's gotta go. But whatever, that's human nature and most folks are whiny punks that don't even understand what video games are about. Challenge is the why most people play games. I can remember how great it was beating Emerald Weapon back in the day. (Which BTW, if you don't know what that's all about then I'm afraid you don't understand what "unfair" really looks like) The issue isn't about how hard something is but about how fair it is. And not fair in the pansy way, but if I bring my A game and you bring your A game we both have a shot at winning. That is what's important. So here are the two main issues I see with tanks currently and some thoughts about possible solutions.
The first problem is something that can't really be fixed until the game releases. We're running a limited number of games, on limited server space with limited players. This gives us situations like I had earlier where the other team had 2 dropships, 2 guys in LAV's and 3 tanks. My team had me and one other guy with swarms. That game was total crap, wasn't fun and a waste of time and ISK. That will be less likely to happen with more games and more players but maybe there should be some sort of limiting factor in the game? Something to ensure that while the numbers aren't always equal they're at least reasonably close. Maybe one team can only have 2 more tanks deployed than the other team? LAV's don't make it unfair and drop ships are vulnerable enough so larger limits (if any) could work for those. Once you start talking about 3 tanks to none or 4 tanks to 1 it really does become unfair and not very much fun to play.
The second problem is that tanks are too powerful for one player. You see a high level tank in a match with 40 kills and no deaths there is probably something wrong there. Only thing is the tanks aren't invincible, they're just too difficult to feasibly take out. I mean, what are the odds of having 4 or 5 high level AV players in a random match? The lower end and medium level tanks are fine. A couple rounds from a swarm and an AV grenade usually does the trick. But throw two well-fitted high level tanks in one of these matches and there's not really a point in trying. They can just roll around in tandem with no threat to them at all. That's the real issue here. There's no skill involved and to me that is just plain stupid. But just buffing and nerfing without looking at other options is gonna make everything suck (heavies know what I'm talking about).
If CCP nerfs the tanks then there won't be any reason to go for the high level ones. These things aren't Winnebago's with some sheet metal soldered on the side. They're tanks. Not getting blown is what tanks do. If you buff the AV weapons then lower level tanks will have no chance and people will stop training for them because they're getting insta popped and going broke. Seems to me the real issue (and a possible solution) is looking the solo nature of the current high level tanks. They're no more invincible and devastating than a group of skilled players in formation covering each other and mowing down anything that even looks orange, but they're only one player...which removes most of the skill required. So what about making the higher level tanks much more vulnerable to AV weapons on their own but including some support turrets. Countermeasures to throw off the rockets, anti-missile weapons, some kind of target jamming, directional shield that leaves your flank open...something, I dunno. On your own just a couple of players with good a good AV fit and a little bit of skill can take you down. But throw in 2 or maybe 3 other players in these turrets and all of a sudden you're stupid beastly again. This would even the playing field by making the high level tanks uber-powerful, but also make them a large investment for whatever team deploys them. You want to field 3 ubert tanks? Fine, but it's gonna take 6 or more of your team off the ground. Maybe the defense systems require a wetlink that would kill you if removed meaning once you're in one of the defensive turrets you're in it until the tank explodes, you die or the match ends. Tanks should still be stupid beastly, but should only be good for certain situations. While they still roll in beast mode they should require more than one player. This way everyone wins.
Look at titans, nerfing the doomsday weapon has probably been for the best. Now, a titan all alone is more vulnerable but in a coordinated fleet they can still dominate. Same thing for taking the drones away from dreads. Sure that sucks, but with a fleet running defense they still wreck a POS. Anyway, just some thoughts while I wait for PSN to stop being stupid. And if this was too long for you and you didn't read it, I've already stopped caring before you finish reading this sent |
Aighun
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
666
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
My objection to tanks has never been that they are OP. They should be. But they are so easy to use a potato could roll in a tank and still bank sp and ISK.
One of these days I will read your post in more detail and deliver a more lengthy response. Maybe. |
Celestial3
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 05:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
I don't think they should be this OP. When you don't have balance it will throw things out of whack. People won't keep playing just to be cannon fodder for geared tanks. They'll either a) quit playing or b) Start trying to play as a tank. The OP is right. 4 or 5 tanks out in a match leaves little hope for other squad. You don't want 1 player to be able to take out a tank but you don't want tanks dominating the field like they are now. I have faith that balance is coming. |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
65
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Let me explain the basic principle of whats going to happen in the next 2 years, for what people are aware of planned features, first, not only do tanks have to be this powerful and more but they are also going to be one of the smaller vehicles in our arsenals when the full on warfare is implemented. Our tanks are designed to be Heavy ASSAULT Vehicles, meaning their role is to be on the front line taking hits and yes causing 50 kill streaks if they are smart and prepared, but you know why? because when the game releases it is very probable that there are going to be planetary battles where noone is actually defending, people are mercenaries, our factions are just set up as a stand in for more advanced features. There was a passing comment once about faction warfare which is basically what we are playing.
So this goes onto the other half where we have 9/10th of the game to go so all balance has basically been thrown out the window, so really stop trying to suggest vague and overarching balance concerns and actually do some number crunching.
Things I've noticed while number crunching with tank turrets.
Missile launchers DPS is the same as a Railguns, and in fact more on the rapid fire ones but without cool down penalties, of course there are different balance issues but blunt and simple how come missile launchers just get a raw better deal? (Maybe because railguns are for sniping but I dunno)
Blaster turrets have 4 massive problems, their muzzle flash is so large you cant use in first person, their damage is too dispersed to actually take out infantry like they are supposed to, their range is too short to be a proper weapon against the range anti vehicle weapons are being used against you, and they do less damage AND even heat faster then railguns, so they can't take out tanks either.
Railguns are well pretty good guns, they are very effective vs tanks, but maybe a bit too effective vs infantry, so I dunno what to make of that, they might need their AoE damage or range nerfed by about 20% to make it so they aren't terrorizing the whole feild but this is without having proper full cost powerarmour so any values are expected to be balanced against top of the line stuff.
And these all build into the biggest and most significant problem with all these idiots trying to say tanks are OP, sure you can't exactly kill them but of course your going to die to one shot on them when they have 8x the SP you have and their vehicles cost 500x as much. If you tally up the costs of good equipment and the SP to equal that of a even a low level tank, your going to have enough firepower and durability to survive direct tank shots which are uncommon but you can very easily survive AoE damage.
So seriously enough with these bloody tanksareop topics and actually talk about numerical balancing what can be done. (I would love to see blasters damage doubled) |
Gooly
26
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Exactly...balance is of course the issue. I was pointing out that simply increasing the damage of AV weapons or decreasing the hp of the tank might not be the best way to go about it. Keep the tanks at current strength but make their usefulness more situational. Requiring more than one player for the tank to be at full strength would allow a team to concentrate their defense or offense in a single area while exposing them in other areas. This would still make the tank worthwhile to train but they wouldn't simply be a win button for whoever used it. Maybe the tank's HP could be tied to the number of occupants. Turning 5 players in to a single unit would be a real strategic investment in a team of 15. Things like this are better for gameplay than arbitrary nerfs, buffs, or limits.
Maybe they could make some new hackable structures that would give access to a space-based one shot weapon capable of destroying or severely weakening the tanks allowing for an successful assault with proper planning and teamwork. Maybe this could tie in to ships in eve firing on a planet from space. I'm just saying we should be thinking more creatively than just "nerf it". Face it, nerfs remove gameplay by their very nature...simple as that. The folks that work at CCP have the technical skill to make things happen but that doesn't mean the community can't come up creative ideas. True nerfs, simply reducing HP or increasing damage, should be the last resort. Otherwise it's just laziness and a lot of times something can be lost forever from the game. Just look at heavies. Where are they? Gone, that's where.
No matter what, fielding 3 or 4 high level tanks is crap. You should still be able to do it if you wanted to, but it should be made to put your team at a severe disadvantage. These tanks have the potential to be such an interesting aspect of gameplay, but simply making them weaker could ruin it. |
Timothy Reaper
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
321
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
+1, for thinking things through before you post. Too many of the post I've read lately have been "OMG DIS SUX FIX NOW!!!1!" As you said, the problem with tanks is not that they are heavily armored killing machines (that's what a tank is supposed to be), it's that they are heavily armored killing machines that only need one person to operate. One idea I've read is to make them like the other vehicles available at the moment, in that the driver only drives; he'll need gunners to operate the turrets. Another idea is to make vehicle ammunition finite; that way they have to think before they shoot and make use of Nanohives and Supply Depots, like everyone else. There are plenty of ways to 'nerf' weapons/vehicles besides lowering their basic offensive/defensive capabilities.. Plus, CCP has stated in their new Weekly Updates thread that they're going to look into reversing the AV nerf. |
TiMeSpLiT--TeR
Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore
326
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
They are over powered somewhat because we have barely dedicated swarm launcher squad. I can response to this thread because I have a prototype breach forgegun with level 3 proficiency. iF there were more of me in the game, then sagaris well- fitted-tank wont be do much threst |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
65
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lasers vehicle and infantry : Dedicated anti shield weaponry, Physical guns including artillery : Dedicated anti armour weaponry. Armour hardeners and of course the resistance stats coming with them.
Timesplitter just saying, there's a few of us tank pilots who basically just hunt other tanks.
Fielding number of tanks I don't think is the problem but I do agree on number problems, simply stated, we need a disposable vehicle such as a motorcycle which costs close to 0 vehicle points, we need cheaper anti vehicle tanks whos weapons are less effective versus infantry, we need LAVs to be balanced out slightly because they actually have the ability to use advanced logistics modules for infantry and tanks. We also need to solve some "Persistence" issues which is causing almost all of these problems. I think it would be interesting to see the discussions on OP tanks if the devs remove instant battle and have ONLY corp vs Corp. |
Gooly
26
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
In retrospect I feel I should have included 2 or 3 sentences at the beginning in bold about how this wasn't another "tAnkS r lame i lOst itS not fa1r!!!!111!!!!" and the people that say that need to stop whining and grow a pair. Some folks might miss the point, oh well. |
Baal Roo
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
811
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:38:00 -
[10] - Quote
A minor thing that would help balance tanks would be if a squad leader's ATTACK order didn't disappear the second the tank goes out of view. |
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Gooly
26
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:40:00 -
[11] - Quote
Also, I'm not proposing a hard limit on the number of tanks (or any vehicles for that matter), I was just thinking that for random matches there could be some balancing metric. If one team has no one with a vehicle the other team can't bring in 3 tanks, 2 drop ships and 3 LAV's as that just ruins it for everyone. This would screw both sides I think fairly equally as some players that trained all that time for a tank won't be able to use it and a whole team with nothing but ground pounders will still have to deal with a tank or two. But they're random matches, there's gonna be a price to be paid.
Maybe CCP has a great plan for when the game is released and everything will be fine. Maybe not. Wouldn't hurt to at least throw some ideas around. Now is the time where player feedback is going to make the most difference. |
Antonius Dacinci
Bragian Order Amarr Empire
65
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 06:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
Well if you want ideas to throw around why not talk about things that would blow up tanks :p |
amarrian victorian
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
52
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
the problem is it is too easy to disengage with a tank and get healed up. every AV class is slow as hell, not to mention the person in the tank can easily see and kill any threat.
what they need is webs like in eve, once webbed a tank won't be able to run away, another item would be tracking disruption to make turning the turret slower, this means someone could actually flank the vehicle instead of be seen and roflpwned even though the tank driver never saw the person, just the red on radar. |
STB-LURCHASAURUS EV
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
173
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 07:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gooly wrote:Maybe CCP has a great plan for when the game is released and everything will be fine. Maybe not. Wouldn't hurt to at least throw some ideas around. Now is the time where player feedback is going to make the most difference.
ewar |
Shiro Mokuzan
220
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 08:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
What I see a lot of people fail to ask is not "are tanks overpowered?", but "are too powerful for their cost?".
The only real kind of overpowered in this game is if they're far and away better than something else or several other things that are of similar price. In other words, a tank fitting that costs a million should be roughly equal in power to 1 million worth of dropsuit fittings, of course depending on the situation.
Maybe tanks are too effective for how much they cost. I don't know. But the point is, people seem to be asking the wrong question.
I think the driver should just be a driver and that they should have limited ammo. Otherwise, I think they're fine. |
Gooly
26
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 10:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
The real purpose of this thread was to hopefully get some support against just nerfing them and throw out ideas as to what all CCP could do with tanks to even things out. Again, there's such a small player base now and limited games and only a couple of maps we have no real way of knowing what it will be like. To me the problem is they are nothing more than giant win buttons at the moment and are just too much for one player. It's very common in games for larger, more powerful things to cost more "resources". Starcraft II would be total crap if I played protoss and built 200 carriers.
AV's got nerfed and they kind of suck. Heavies got nerfed and they kind of suck. Players want anything that beats them nerfed and it almost never works out.
Ewar stuff could be a good idea. Or maybe some kind of siege mode? When mobile there could be some restriction on the gun. Put it in siege mode and crank the firepower up while reducing or eliminating the ability to repair damage? |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 11:12:00 -
[17] - Quote
Timothy Reaper wrote:+1, for thinking things through before you post. Too many of the post I've read lately have been "OMG DIS SUX FIX NOW!!!1!" As you said, the problem with tanks is not that they are heavily armored killing machines (that's what a tank is supposed to be), it's that they are heavily armored killing machines that only need one person to operate. One idea I've read is to make them like the other vehicles available at the moment, in that the driver only drives; he'll need gunners to operate the turrets. Another idea is to make vehicle ammunition finite; that way they have to think before they shoot and make use of Nanohives and Supply Depots, like everyone else. There are plenty of ways to 'nerf' weapons/vehicles besides lowering their basic offensive/defensive capabilities.. Plus, CCP has stated in their new Weekly Updates thread that they're going to look into reversing the AV nerf.
tanks have never been a 2 person to operate vehicle in any game thats just a dumb suggestion next u'll ask for MTACs and Fighters when they get put in to be 2 person to operate as well the LAV is basically the warthog from halo/a simple jeep and dropships are troop transport thats their role
Capacitors if they ever get added will make tanks more difficult to use along with ewar and the other stuff coming |
EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 11:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
AV nerf didnt help
Also doesnt help that you can skill into a tank quicker than skilling into AV
We dont have EWAR involved either or capacitors for tanks |
Timothy Reaper
ZionTCD Legacy Rising
321
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 12:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Mavado V Noriega wrote:tanks have never been a 2 person to operate vehicle in any game thats just a dumb suggestion next u'll ask for MTACs and Fighters when they get put in to be 2 person to operate as well the LAV is basically the warthog from halo/a simple jeep and dropships are troop transport thats their role
Capacitors if they ever get added will make tanks more difficult to use along with ewar and the other stuff coming Who says Dust has to be like other games? This would certainly go along with the emphasis placed on teamwork in the rest of the game. Plus, to my knowledge, that's how real tanks work - at least the ones that HAVs resemble do. |
Wakko03
Better Hide R Die
134
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 12:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
JUST so there are no mis-understandings and hurt feelings, I am responding to EnglishSnake (post right above mine) and the OP
Shouldn't the temporary nerf of AV be ending soon?
It does seem ludicrous that 1 group is getting preferential treatment....easier to get a good suit and vehicle gear.....how many skills effect both? So even if I do get a BROKEN Scout suit with its instant sheilds or better yet a fat suited heavy, to jump out of an HAV, it is almost a lose lose situation for me; who foolishly thought based on the information provided in the games menus about said weapons that an anti vehicle weapon should be as well designed as the vehicle it is facing. When I read it and choose to go this route the ANTI AV movement had not gained much momentum, and while it is apparently okay for them to justify going 40-2 and keeping the other 10 of 16 players within single digit kills and the only deaths for your side, as they are the ones who are facing the enemies who slip by your infranty killing frenzy.
It makes me laugh to see the words balance used anywhere in this game, the tanks push everyone on the enemy team into the spawn, which is oh so conviently depressed (ie lower ground) or level with the terrain....allowing vehicles to do whatever they want. Your fellow foot soldiers are kept low enough in level because they don't have enemies to shoot and can only capture points maybe one time, so that when the tanks face these players who prefer using the AR , shotgun, sniper rifle (although everyone needs one when playing with tanks as they have the range to hit the enemy in the spawn who don the fat suit and forge gun and try to defend themselves) forge or hmg, maybe a mass driver -- In the next battle they are easy kills for the tanks because they don't have anything close to what is against them.
At the same time, show me a location where the splash damage of a vehicle weapon can't reach, be it the wall 20 meters behind me or the patch of dirt to the sides of me, with no other cover available it usually only takes a tank 3 shots to range and home in on the kill zone. While my "Roger Rabbit , Eddie Valiant Dum Dum bullets" swarm missles seem to miss every shot, because even though I got the dot in the box on the turret of the vehicle the only thing showing and have good tone, the fired missles seem to hit terrain more than the vehicle and I stayed out in the open exposed to hits from multiple vehicles and snipers to re-acuire target lock. Or tell me why my forge gun is so hit and miss, the reticule was on my target and red, how did I miss a stationary object.... oh because it was out of range and I was only able to get the heavy weapon sharpshooter skill up to level 3 so far. Let me throw down my source of ammo, a nano-hive, still no match for your splash damage so their goes my ammo, umm you flee should I get everything to work right and damage you, I give chase under withering fire from you, throw down another nano hive, start shooting again before you run out of range if I am still lucky enough to get hits....vs the skill it takes to park somewhere and shoot over a ledge preventing any sort of attack other than a lucky av grenade toss actually hitting anything but the terrain in front of the tank.
So in closing I would just like to mention that the tank users seem to be able to dish it out, but can they take it, they should get a nerf. I am thinking you are trading security and skill for ISK and SP now, so lets swing the "tanks are fine" pendulum back towards an over the top AV build for the next build of the game, for testing purposes. I propose that tanks should get less for killing infantry in SP along with the assists for the secondary weapon users....something along the lines of +25 for a kill +12 for an assist.... I mean you're (tank users) who seems to need to bring a tank to get a kill.
All the tank users band together and try to dismiss everything an AV person brings up so what is the point of trying to get the same treatment for AV that V uses; I often ask myself. If the tools to not give accurate feedback about vehicle warfare is not in the next build tanks will still be OP.
|
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EnglishSnake
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
1012
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 13:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
When AV goes back to how it was then it maybe fine
But because its easier to skill into a tank than AV atm then tht causes other problems, also price plays a part of it since quite a few are not using protostuff that much and being cheap
|
Paran Tadec
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
902
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 13:52:00 -
[22] - Quote
Wakko03 wrote:JUST so there are no mis-understandings and hurt feelings, I am responding to EnglishSnake (post right above mine) and the OP
Shouldn't the temporary nerf of AV be ending soon?
It does seem ludicrous that 1 group is getting preferential treatment....easier to get a good suit and vehicle gear.....how many skills effect both? So even if I do get a BROKEN Scout suit with its instant sheilds or better yet a fat suited heavy, to jump out of an HAV, it is almost a lose lose situation for me; who foolishly thought based on the information provided in the games menus about said weapons that an anti vehicle weapon should be as well designed as the vehicle it is facing. When I read it and choose to go this route the ANTI AV movement had not gained much momentum, and while it is apparently okay for them to justify going 40-2 and keeping the other 10 of 16 players within single digit kills and the only deaths for your side, as they are the ones who are facing the enemies who slip by your infranty killing frenzy.
It makes me laugh to see the words balance used anywhere in this game, the tanks push everyone on the enemy team into the spawn, which is oh so conviently depressed (ie lower ground) or level with the terrain....allowing vehicles to do whatever they want. Your fellow foot soldiers are kept low enough in level because they don't have enemies to shoot and can only capture points maybe one time, so that when the tanks face these players who prefer using the AR , shotgun, sniper rifle (although everyone needs one when playing with tanks as they have the range to hit the enemy in the spawn who don the fat suit and forge gun and try to defend themselves) forge or hmg, maybe a mass driver -- In the next battle they are easy kills for the tanks because they don't have anything close to what is against them.
At the same time, show me a location where the splash damage of a vehicle weapon can't reach, be it the wall 20 meters behind me or the patch of dirt to the sides of me, with no other cover available it usually only takes a tank 3 shots to range and home in on the kill zone. While my "Roger Rabbit , Eddie Valiant Dum Dum bullets" swarm missles seem to miss every shot, because even though I got the dot in the box on the turret of the vehicle the only thing showing and have good tone, the fired missles seem to hit terrain more than the vehicle and I stayed out in the open exposed to hits from multiple vehicles and snipers to re-acuire target lock. Or tell me why my forge gun is so hit and miss, the reticule was on my target and red, how did I miss a stationary object.... oh because it was out of range and I was only able to get the heavy weapon sharpshooter skill up to level 3 so far. Let me throw down my source of ammo, a nano-hive, still no match for your splash damage so their goes my ammo, umm you flee should I get everything to work right and damage you, I give chase under withering fire from you, throw down another nano hive, start shooting again before you run out of range if I am still lucky enough to get hits....vs the skill it takes to park somewhere and shoot over a ledge preventing any sort of attack other than a lucky av grenade toss actually hitting anything but the terrain in front of the tank.
So in closing I would just like to mention that the tank users seem to be able to dish it out, but can they take it, they should get a nerf. I am thinking you are trading security and skill for ISK and SP now, so lets swing the "tanks are fine" pendulum back towards an over the top AV build for the next build of the game, for testing purposes. I propose that tanks should get less for killing infantry in SP along with the assists for the secondary weapon users....something along the lines of +25 for a kill +12 for an assist.... I mean you're (tank users) who seems to need to bring a tank to get a kill.
All the tank users band together and try to dismiss everything an AV person brings up so what is the point of trying to get the same treatment for AV that V uses; I often ask myself. If the tools to not give accurate feedback about vehicle warfare is not in the next build tanks will still be OP.
TANKS ARNT HARD TO KILL. STOP WHINING. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 13:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Why does everyone forget there is a heavy handed nerf inbound? |
Wakko03
Better Hide R Die
134
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 14:03:00 -
[24] - Quote
Paran Tadec wrote:Wakko03 wrote:JUST so there are no mis-understandings and hurt feelings, I am responding to EnglishSnake (post right above mine) and the OP
Shouldn't the temporary nerf of AV be ending soon?
It does seem ludicrous that 1 group is getting preferential treatment....easier to get a good suit and vehicle gear.....how many skills effect both? So even if I do get a BROKEN Scout suit with its instant sheilds or better yet a fat suited heavy, to jump out of an HAV, it is almost a lose lose situation for me; who foolishly thought based on the information provided in the games menus about said weapons that an anti vehicle weapon should be as well designed as the vehicle it is facing. When I read it and choose to go this route the ANTI AV movement had not gained much momentum, and while it is apparently okay for them to justify going 40-2 and keeping the other 10 of 16 players within single digit kills and the only deaths for your side, as they are the ones who are facing the enemies who slip by your infranty killing frenzy.
It makes me laugh to see the words balance used anywhere in this game, the tanks push everyone on the enemy team into the spawn, which is oh so conviently depressed (ie lower ground) or level with the terrain....allowing vehicles to do whatever they want. Your fellow foot soldiers are kept low enough in level because they don't have enemies to shoot and can only capture points maybe one time, so that when the tanks face these players who prefer using the AR , shotgun, sniper rifle (although everyone needs one when playing with tanks as they have the range to hit the enemy in the spawn who don the fat suit and forge gun and try to defend themselves) forge or hmg, maybe a mass driver -- In the next battle they are easy kills for the tanks because they don't have anything close to what is against them.
At the same time, show me a location where the splash damage of a vehicle weapon can't reach, be it the wall 20 meters behind me or the patch of dirt to the sides of me, with no other cover available it usually only takes a tank 3 shots to range and home in on the kill zone. While my "Roger Rabbit , Eddie Valiant Dum Dum bullets" swarm missles seem to miss every shot, because even though I got the dot in the box on the turret of the vehicle the only thing showing and have good tone, the fired missles seem to hit terrain more than the vehicle and I stayed out in the open exposed to hits from multiple vehicles and snipers to re-acuire target lock. Or tell me why my forge gun is so hit and miss, the reticule was on my target and red, how did I miss a stationary object.... oh because it was out of range and I was only able to get the heavy weapon sharpshooter skill up to level 3 so far. Let me throw down my source of ammo, a nano-hive, still no match for your splash damage so their goes my ammo, umm you flee should I get everything to work right and damage you, I give chase under withering fire from you, throw down another nano hive, start shooting again before you run out of range if I am still lucky enough to get hits....vs the skill it takes to park somewhere and shoot over a ledge preventing any sort of attack other than a lucky av grenade toss actually hitting anything but the terrain in front of the tank.
So in closing I would just like to mention that the tank users seem to be able to dish it out, but can they take it, they should get a nerf. I am thinking you are trading security and skill for ISK and SP now, so lets swing the "tanks are fine" pendulum back towards an over the top AV build for the next build of the game, for testing purposes. I propose that tanks should get less for killing infantry in SP along with the assists for the secondary weapon users....something along the lines of +25 for a kill +12 for an assist.... I mean you're (tank users) who seems to need to bring a tank to get a kill.
All the tank users band together and try to dismiss everything an AV person brings up so what is the point of trying to get the same treatment for AV that V uses; I often ask myself. If the tools to not give accurate feedback about vehicle warfare is not in the next build tanks will still be OP.
TANKS ARNT HARD TO KILL. STOP WHINING.
USING CAPS LOCKS IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY MIND, THEY NERFED AV BY 25% AND DIDN'T DO ANYTHING TO HAV. They made all suits have the same HP, yet tanks can still up their HP to full proto level without a wicked decrease in speed.
So you can sit there and call it whining, I call it as I see it, and I see this happening in more and more battles.... so not only do tanks abuse the enemy but they limit their own team.... funny I don't see a rebuttal.
And again to quote myself, IF THE TOOLS TO NOT GIVE ACCURATE FEEDBACK ABOUT VEHICLE WARFARE IS NOT IN THE GAME, THEN TANKS ARE OP, BECAUSE NO ONE CAN DETERMINE THEIR EFFECTIVENESS IN ACTUAL GAMEPLAY AND NOT JUST ON PAPER...cough scout suit shield exploit. |
Gooly
26
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Posted - 2012.09.11 14:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Why does everyone forget there is a heavy handed nerf inbound? I didn't forget. I'm hoping they maybe have some ideas to balance things with out just nerfing tanks. Maybe they could add some gameplay instead of taking it away.
I also gotta say I'm not too fond of the one driver and one gunner thing. Doesn't fit well with the tank. I'm suggesting one person can drive it, but reduce the tank's...tank, and add in some defensive turrets to compensate. That way what you're doing is making the tank something you don't just automatically deploy every match. |
Dzark Kill
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
115
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 14:55:00 -
[26] - Quote
A simple solution to this issue would be would requiring 4 people to use a tank to its full potential:
1) A tank driver is a tank driver nothing more. no turrent limitied shields and armor. 2) A defence systems expert required to enable shield/armor mods to function correctly 3) Weapon system expert. Need to fit and use any turrets. 4) utility slot.
Each empty slot in the tank reduces armor and shield by say 15%. meaning a guy running solo in a tank would die quick and couldnt kill but they would still be useful for a squad but the benifit has a negative less people running and gunning on the team.
This would limit the number of tanks that it would be worth fielding.
With out negatives to running solo in tank they are too powerfull a tool to be counter without dropping your own tank in.
Tanks was good on the atari ST but i think 16 v 16 tank battles would get old very quick and thats were we are heading even with the up coming nerf. |
Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:19:00 -
[27] - Quote
EnglishSnake wrote:When AV goes back to how it was then it maybe fine
But because its easier to skill into a tank than AV atm then tht causes other problems, also price plays a part of it since quite a few are not using protostuff that much and being cheap
One question. Which planet do you live on, and which funny gasses does your atmosphere contain? |
Dewie Cheecham
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
677
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Why does everyone forget there is a heavy handed nerf inbound?
Again, where do you get that info, and does your little cabal of anti-tank freaks even accept pro-tank arguments when you whisper in that CCP dev lover of yours on that secret IRC channel you have managed to get into? |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Problems with tanks, in order: 1 The map design is awful and nearly uniformly open from an infantry scale, but cluttered with cover on a vehicle scale. 2 The turrets lack any sort of role and are hence literally good at everything. 3 Tank modules don't require high levels for max modules.
Things that are not a problem at the moment: 1 AV weapons are about right. Proto is still scary but still leaves room for the very expensive tank to react.
Also, there isn't a plan for another nerfbat, they just want to give some range back to the forge and fix a few obviously broken modules. |
Beld Errmon
Tal-Romon Legion Amarr Empire
479
|
Posted - 2012.09.11 15:39:00 -
[30] - Quote
funny how when the biggest tank whores go quiet there's a new generation of ppl who cry the same argument, tanks aren't OP we're just pro, even though we couldn't beat a militia suit outside of one. |
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