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Some thoughts on the future of tanks

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Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 05:25:00 - [1] - Quote This is gonna be a long one, but this is a beta so here's some feedback. First off, I absolutely believe that in their current form tanks are OP. Secondly, I think they are an awesome aspect of gameplay and ohmygod CCP don't screw them up. So here we go. Most of the cries about tanks being OP come from people that really don't understand what is and is not OP. Just because it killed you doesn't mean it's gotta go. But whatever, that's human nature and most folks are whiny punks that don't even understand what video games are about. Challenge is the why most people play games. I can remember how great it was beating Emerald Weapon back in the day. (Which BTW, if you don't know what that's all about then I'm afraid you don't understand what "unfair" really looks like) The issue isn't about how hard something is but about how fair it is. And not fair in the pansy way, but if I bring my A game and you bring your A game we both have a shot at winning. That is what's important. So here are the two main issues I see with tanks currently and some thoughts about possible solutions. The first problem is something that can't really be fixed until the game releases. We're running a limited number of games, on limited server space with limited players. This gives us situations like I had earlier where the other team had 2 dropships, 2 guys in LAV's and 3 tanks. My team had me and one other guy with swarms. That game was total crap, wasn't fun and a waste of time and ISK. That will be less likely to happen with more games and more players but maybe there should be some sort of limiting factor in the game? Something to ensure that while the numbers aren't always equal they're at least reasonably close. Maybe one team can only have 2 more tanks deployed than the other team? LAV's don't make it unfair and drop ships are vulnerable enough so larger limits (if any) could work for those. Once you start talking about 3 tanks to none or 4 tanks to 1 it really does become unfair and not very much fun to play. The second problem is that tanks are too powerful for one player. You see a high level tank in a match with 40 kills and no deaths there is probably something wrong there. Only thing is the tanks aren't invincible, they're just too difficult to feasibly take out. I mean, what are the odds of having 4 or 5 high level AV players in a random match? The lower end and medium level tanks are fine. A couple rounds from a swarm and an AV grenade usually does the trick. But throw two well-fitted high level tanks in one of these matches and there's not really a point in trying. They can just roll around in tandem with no threat to them at all. That's the real issue here. There's no skill involved and to me that is just plain stupid. But just buffing and nerfing without looking at other options is gonna make everything suck (heavies know what I'm talking about). If CCP nerfs the tanks then there won't be any reason to go for the high level ones. These things aren't Winnebago's with some sheet metal soldered on the side. They're tanks. Not getting blown is what tanks do. If you buff the AV weapons then lower level tanks will have no chance and people will stop training for them because they're getting insta popped and going broke. Seems to me the real issue (and a possible solution) is looking the solo nature of the current high level tanks. They're no more invincible and devastating than a group of skilled players in formation covering each other and mowing down anything that even looks orange, but they're only one player...which removes most of the skill required. So what about making the higher level tanks much more vulnerable to AV weapons on their own but including some support turrets. Countermeasures to throw off the rockets, anti-missile weapons, some kind of target jamming, directional shield that leaves your flank open...something, I dunno. On your own just a couple of players with good a good AV fit and a little bit of skill can take you down. But throw in 2 or maybe 3 other players in these turrets and all of a sudden you're stupid beastly again. This would even the playing field by making the high level tanks uber-powerful, but also make them a large investment for whatever team deploys them. You want to field 3 ubert tanks? Fine, but it's gonna take 6 or more of your team off the ground. Maybe the defense systems require a wetlink that would kill you if removed meaning once you're in one of the defensive turrets you're in it until the tank explodes, you die or the match ends. Tanks should still be stupid beastly, but should only be good for certain situations. While they still roll in beast mode they should require more than one player. This way everyone wins. Look at titans, nerfing the doomsday weapon has probably been for the best. Now, a titan all alone is more vulnerable but in a coordinated fleet they can still dominate. Same thing for taking the drones away from dreads. Sure that sucks, but with a fleet running defense they still wreck a POS. Anyway, just some thoughts while I wait for PSN to stop being stupid. And if this was too long for you and you didn't read it, I've already stopped caring before you finish reading this sent
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 06:20:00 - [2] - Quote Exactly...balance is of course the issue. I was pointing out that simply increasing the damage of AV weapons or decreasing the hp of the tank might not be the best way to go about it. Keep the tanks at current strength but make their usefulness more situational. Requiring more than one player for the tank to be at full strength would allow a team to concentrate their defense or offense in a single area while exposing them in other areas. This would still make the tank worthwhile to train but they wouldn't simply be a win button for whoever used it. Maybe the tank's HP could be tied to the number of occupants. Turning 5 players in to a single unit would be a real strategic investment in a team of 15. Things like this are better for gameplay than arbitrary nerfs, buffs, or limits. Maybe they could make some new hackable structures that would give access to a space-based one shot weapon capable of destroying or severely weakening the tanks allowing for an successful assault with proper planning and teamwork. Maybe this could tie in to ships in eve firing on a planet from space. I'm just saying we should be thinking more creatively than just "nerf it". Face it, nerfs remove gameplay by their very nature...simple as that. The folks that work at CCP have the technical skill to make things happen but that doesn't mean the community can't come up creative ideas. True nerfs, simply reducing HP or increasing damage, should be the last resort. Otherwise it's just laziness and a lot of times something can be lost forever from the game. Just look at heavies. Where are they? Gone, that's where. No matter what, fielding 3 or 4 high level tanks is crap. You should still be able to do it if you wanted to, but it should be made to put your team at a severe disadvantage. These tanks have the potential to be such an interesting aspect of gameplay, but simply making them weaker could ruin it.
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 06:30:00 - [3] - Quote In retrospect I feel I should have included 2 or 3 sentences at the beginning in bold about how this wasn't another "tAnkS r lame i lOst itS not fa1r!!!!111!!!!" and the people that say that need to stop whining and grow a pair. Some folks might miss the point, oh well.
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 06:40:00 - [4] - Quote Also, I'm not proposing a hard limit on the number of tanks (or any vehicles for that matter), I was just thinking that for random matches there could be some balancing metric. If one team has no one with a vehicle the other team can't bring in 3 tanks, 2 drop ships and 3 LAV's as that just ruins it for everyone. This would screw both sides I think fairly equally as some players that trained all that time for a tank won't be able to use it and a whole team with nothing but ground pounders will still have to deal with a tank or two. But they're random matches, there's gonna be a price to be paid. Maybe CCP has a great plan for when the game is released and everything will be fine. Maybe not. Wouldn't hurt to at least throw some ideas around. Now is the time where player feedback is going to make the most difference.
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 10:12:00 - [5] - Quote The real purpose of this thread was to hopefully get some support against just nerfing them and throw out ideas as to what all CCP could do with tanks to even things out. Again, there's such a small player base now and limited games and only a couple of maps we have no real way of knowing what it will be like. To me the problem is they are nothing more than giant win buttons at the moment and are just too much for one player. It's very common in games for larger, more powerful things to cost more "resources". Starcraft II would be total crap if I played protoss and built 200 carriers. AV's got nerfed and they kind of suck. Heavies got nerfed and they kind of suck. Players want anything that beats them nerfed and it almost never works out. Ewar stuff could be a good idea. Or maybe some kind of siege mode? When mobile there could be some restriction on the gun. Put it in siege mode and crank the firepower up while reducing or eliminating the ability to repair damage?
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 14:40:00 - [6] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Why does everyone forget there is a heavy handed nerf inbound? I didn't forget. I'm hoping they maybe have some ideas to balance things with out just nerfing tanks. Maybe they could add some gameplay instead of taking it away. I also gotta say I'm not too fond of the one driver and one gunner thing. Doesn't fit well with the tank. I'm suggesting one person can drive it, but reduce the tank's...tank, and add in some defensive turrets to compensate. That way what you're doing is making the tank something you don't just automatically deploy every match.
Gooly 26	Posted - 2012.09.11 16:21:00 - [7] - Quote This thread has completely derailed. Guess I was a bit late to the party and everyone is sick of "nerf the tanks". Hopefully CCP has something lined up and they go at this issue with a surgical scalpel and not a rabid badger tied to stick.

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