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Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.09 09:29:00 - [1] - Quote I posted this in another thread after a few of the other testers asked me to define what my issues are with Dust's gunplay. If you feel like you can add anything to my post below please do, and try to keep it positive. The better more concise information provided, the more chance developers will take note. It's not an easy thing to define but I'll give you my take on it. Before people start throwing around "lolz fanboy troll" accusations, I'd like to point out that I'm not a massive fan of any of the current crop of shooters. MAG was the last shooter I played a lot and lately, Battlefield 3 and Counter Strike: GO see a little, but not a ton of game time. The first and most obvious thing about the guns in Dust is the sound. I'm particularly referring to the AR's. The "TIP TAP TIP TAP" sound doesn't give me a sense that I'm firing a high powered futuristic rifle (LOLZ ITZ A GAEM!!1!). Yes, it is a game but I feel that one of the important things that create a sense of connection to the on screen action is the sound. Currently, it's not good enough. The second thing for me is the ADS view. It's jarring to say the least. I hope this view isn't going to be a permanent feature and we see something more akin to the E3 2011 view. Again, for me, it creates a disconnect between the weapon and the player. The weapon doesn't have any identity any more and is replaced with an ugly camera view. I also feel there's a severe lack of feedback, both aural and tactile. Let's take COD: Black Ops as an example. When you are shooting an enemy you clearly hear "THUD" sounds and feel small vibrations in the control pad. It also has the hitmarkers on screen at the same time. Dust has the red X at the moment but it needs more IMO. There's also no enemy death noise and death animations are not up to the standard of other engines. Face-offs at the moment tend to be very amateurish. It usually boils down to: see a player, aim, you both fire and strafe dance and winning feels arbitrary. These are all things that add up to the satisfaction of a kill. The sense that you've outgunned someone and give you a greater sense of belonging to a huge battle. It don't think it's any use having grandiose ideas if the basic fundamentals are not there. Please, I implore you to play a game like Battlefield 3. Despite all of it's flaws, and they are numerous, you have a sense of connection to your weapon (levelling it up was a great idea) the war around you and most of all, take note of the sound design. For most players out there, and Dust will need alot, it is these elements that keep them coming back IMO. I hope that clarifies my stance a bit. Cheers.
Varys Targaryen 200	Posted - 2012.09.09 11:05:00 - [2] - Quote I agree with you on most of your points. Currently, the gunplay is very poor and even if the low frame rate/frame rate drops and lag wasn't an issue, the gunplay would feel very mediocre and cheap. Now, I know that there are more important issues that the devs need to be working on first (lag, framerate, hit detection, matchmaking; you know, the very basics) I would think that gunplay would be the next most important mechanic that needs fixing. Things that I feel would help improve gunplay player experience: More variety/skins for current ARs, SMGs, pistols, and others. A lot of people would like to use and AR with a more traditional sight, especially for reasons the OP listed. People would like to use different reticles when aiming down sight (single dot was a turn off for me, it felt uninspired/boring/cheap) Like the OP said, sound can be a very powerful tool for developers; to immerse the player deeper in the shooting experience. If plasma is spewing everywhere, we should here things sizzle and burn. When someone is shooting at me, I want to hear the wall i'm hiding behind frying from all the heat. Currently, the ARs sound like air soft rifles. Even when the shots hit walls and cover it sounds like BBs bouncing off metal. When I get hit by gunfire, I should see some kind of on-screen reaction. Currently, when you get shot, you flinch (which is sometimes unnoticeable, probably because of lag/low framerate) and your health meter plummets. I want to be able to see my shields flicker, my armor spark. If I get caught in a flux grenade, I want to see my HUD glitch around. personal pet-peeve For the love of god, please time the actual reload time in sync with the animation and sounds. When my Merc slaps the magazine in place and I hear a click, I STILL have to wait an entire second before I can do anything else, or else I have to reload again. This was also a big turn off when I first started playing. Some kind of indication that your shots are hitting your opponents head. Could be anything really; some kind of audio, visible marker maybe. It's nice and rewarding to know popped an enemies cap, yo. It's encouraging. After ironing out the basics, gunplay needs serious additions and polishing. Of course, this list could go on and on and in greater detail. I've only listed the things I feel will bring the gunplay just up to par with other shooters (after hit detection and frame rate improves). All the eve mechanics and politics will mean nothing if the gunplay isn't as smooth and creamy as butter.
FatalFlaw V1 ISK Faucet Industries 76	Posted - 2012.09.09 14:56:00 - [3] - Quote My initial reaction to the gun mechanics in Dust was disappointment. There are two distinct ways an FPS plays and it usually falls into one of those categories. Extremely tight controls, very accurate hit detection, gun feedback like recoil, and the feedback when you hit someone. The two best examples I can give are Counter-Strike (original and source), and on the PS3, CoD. Love or hate those games, the gun mechanics are nearly perfect, with different weapons having different strengths. The second "type" of FPS is best demonstrated by all of the Battlefield games. The maps are much more massive. The animations and feedback from hits just feel a little bit sloppy. Every single battlefield game I have played has felt this way. If I'm not mistaken Dust has devs from the old battlefield team, and it has massive maps, and vehicles. Considering that, I dont ever expect Dust to have the level of control that counter-strike or CoD offer. It's unfortunate but as a long time Eve player, I will likely still play and support Dust.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.09 15:26:00 - [4] - Quote Both great posts. I don't agree with Battlefield though, the death animations in particular are very good, even in the latest console iteration. I also think the way the weapons handle is excellent. Also, the sound design is superb. It adds a lot of atmosphere to the game. I don't really like Battlefield 3 very much overall though. Please keep the suggestions coming everyone.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.09.09 17:04:00 - [5] - Quote i disagree with face offs being amateurish. imo takes skill health isnt too high and isnt too low so gunskill is involved rather than lolbf i see u 1st i win gunfights. Overall as someone who has played BF3 competitively for 11 months id say its a terrible game on console tbh. sound and graphics are awesome but kills dont feel rewarding at all in BF because its just like cod in a 1st to see win scenario since health is so low. as for the scope view i do hope the E3 2011 gun comes back BUT i do also love the view we have now tbh, allows me to see more without being tunnel visioned agree with ur point on being hit by gunfire , that and sound needs some improvements imo
Ops Fox ZionTCD Legacy Rising 197	Posted - 2012.09.09 17:15:00 - [6] - Quote The controls I have over the gun is poor, it jerks around and its hard to line up a shot with guns currently. The excessive deadzone on the controls is a pain and needs to be adressed. ADS is sloppy and I cant aim with it, this is very obvious when I switch from games like CoD with very refined gun control, there im able to hit most of the time in dust it feel like the guns working agianst me. I would like different sights iron sights for my AR and shotgun and a ranged scope for snipers. I dont like how ADS instantly brings up my sights there no wait while you watch your merc pull up his gun and it breaks the immersion.
Jexct Doc Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 14	Posted - 2012.09.09 18:06:00 - [7] - Quote I can't help but scratch my head at how there are no weapon customization features in a game like this. If I spec for assault rifles, how long will you expect me use the same sounding gun with the same blue fullscreen ADS. It only sucks because I can't change it. I need something to keep me busy while I grind SP. I really need this to stay interested in the game. Weapon diversity is very important to me. Maybe it is lag or bullet travel time. I am not sure which. But I would like to be able to put the dot on enemies and shoot them. I always feel like I am trying to get them to run into my bullets. And shotguns smell like cheese.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.09 18:32:00 - [8] - Quote Someone mentioned earlier that the shotguns sound like someone kicking a dodgeball. The SMG is more where it's at in terms of design. The sound is better and it is has a proper ADS view. Also, as far as I know, there will be weapon customisation. At present though, there's no menu or option to do this. Hmmmm.
FiddlersGreen Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2012.09.09 18:35:00 - [9] - Quote Don't really understand the overall disappointment with BF3. If the controls of Dust were as smooth as BF3's I would be extremely happy. I don't want to talk about BF3 to much because this is about DUST not BF3. I can agree with most of you guys about the controls being clunky with the earlier BF games, such as BC and BC2, but BF3 has controls as smooth as if not smoother than CoD. Thats just my opinion though, again this is about Dust not BF. I have said this before in other posts, but I think that guns need a little more oomph. When I put a full clip of an AR or a Chaingun at an enemy, I don't want to expect to have to reload in order to finish him off, especially if im using a chaingun. I know that the guns will get more powerful as you level up your skills and by more advanced and expensive guns, but still. Nothing is more frustrating than unloading a full clip into an enemy at the appropriate range, only to have him turn around while your reloading and shoot you to death.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.09 18:41:00 - [10] - Quote There's nothing wrong with comparisons though. When DUST is finally released it will be judged alongside it's contemporaries. It's and FPS primarily and it has to do the shooting part as good as every other FPS out there.

Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.10 13:11:00 - [11] - Quote Thank you thank you thank you! Ill point a dev at this if I can. Now they CCP said sounds are being worked on some more at least. ADS I did complain about to the developers and they're going to be looking into from bullet jerk to the scopes on the AR and other stand off weapons and they're considering redoing the animations for hoisting weapons to the shoulder as well and many other small nunances , I been told the GEK variant has its scope changed however haven't been on or have the skills to verify. These new animations may address the oumph feeling of guns as well. Not sure about you but I cannot strafe for the life of me to dance around in a heavy suit, so I just hope I can reliably empty out my scrambler into the other guys head or time my grenades right. Some of the developers on dust 514 made battlefield 3 and it wouldn't surprise me if they picked up all the ones EA been forcing out of DICE (I fear a west wood happening) None the less I hope this thread fills up with more issues other players are experiencing none the less I will still point this thread out if/when I can. IRC is not exactly demand a dev center.
Beast Beastlington Bragian Order Amarr Empire 237	Posted - 2012.09.10 13:14:00 - [12] - Quote You're welcome! I am playing regularly now again too so I am trying out various weapons all the time and will come back to this thread to post feedback. Please understand than I am not here to have a pop at the game "DUST SUX LOLZ". I want Dust to be my go to game and I want it to be very successful with a huge varied community.
Patches The Hyena 204	Posted - 2012.09.10 13:27:00 - [13] - Quote Iron Wolf the GEK-38 has a new skin and new ADS view, but its still the same basic thing as the others. Just looks different.
EnIgMa99 Imperfects Negative-Feedback 219	Posted - 2012.09.10 13:35:00 - [14] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: i disagree with face offs being amateurish. imo takes skill health isnt too high and isnt too low so gunskill is involved rather than lolbf i see u 1st i win gunfights. Overall as someone who has played BF3 competitively for 11 months id say its a terrible game on console tbh. sound and graphics are awesome but kills dont feel rewarding at all in BF because its just like cod in a 1st to see win scenario since health is so low. as for the scope view i do hope the E3 2011 gun comes back BUT i do also love the view we have now tbh, allows me to see more without being tunnel visioned agree with ur point on being hit by gunfire , that and sound needs some improvements imo I want an unobstructed view if I am aiming down sights, less crap on my screen i dont like the whole looking through a red dot scope crap, let me "fire from hip" also the gun play is there, takes skill I think my K/D is 7 now so there is a skill in fitting and a skill to how you shoot ppl, IMO I think there needs to be even more headshot damage but only slightly. Something that is frustrating is getting insta deathed by a granade shotgun or sniper rifle. Wouldnt mind if its like a smaller bleed out time or something. just hate hate hate getting fataled >.< oh and +1 to Mavado V Noriega
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.10 13:38:00 - [15] - Quote Well the stand offs he's describing mostly happen out in the open which there is a lot of in this game. Cover to Cover firing doesn't degrade circle jerking its either both keep their heads down or one storms the other guys cover or the one guy caught in the open gets killed.
Varys Targaryen 200	Posted - 2012.09.10 14:12:00 - [16] - Quote I think head shot damage is fine the way it is. Try sneaking up real close to a heavy or assault and you could drop him in a second. Head shot damage currently rewards *consistent* accuracy. Increase the damage multiplier for headshots would reward luck.
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.09.10 14:42:00 - [17] - Quote Just cant hit a thing in this build, it all feels like it comes down to luck at the moment. As for the sights themselves I realy dislike most of them give me the red dot sight on the AR in the dust trailer where they come in on the drop ship and land in the middle of a fire fight, it looks simple and far more effective than the pop up tv we get now. Also let me see some of my gun when I ads it just disapears now .
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.10 14:44:00 - [18] - Quote fenrir storm wrote: Just cant hit a thing in this build, it all feels like it comes down to luck at the moment. As for the sights themselves I realy dislike most of them give me the red dot sight on the AR in the dust trailer where they come in on the drop ship and land in the middle of a fire fight, it looks simple and far more effective than the pop up tv we get now. Also let me see some of my gun when I ads it just disapears now . all reticules are getting another pass.
Shogen Shu Algintal Core Gallente Federation 23	Posted - 2012.09.10 14:54:00 - [19] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber encouraged me to post here. I will copy/past my text, i dont have a lot of time right now, but i love to join the converstation once i'm home. Personally, i don't play this game any longer, just watching the beta forum now and then. I don't like it that this game for me to play it with a keyboard to stand a fair chance against other players who used keyboard. Don't get my wrong, i like the deep and hardcore idea of this game, but I'm a console gamer, and as a console gamer i like sitting in my easy chair drinking coffee or beer (depending on time and weekend day)and playing it with a game-pad. I Did try this new build of Dust and i was shocked of how much i suck at it, and i play a fuckload of first person shooters on the console, so my aim is very very well with the pad. I use to win every 2nd "duel" in gun play and now its may be ever 5th. Please spare me the "this is not CoD bla bla, use a vehicle bla bla, bla bla bla" i know what i want, and i want it to be fair. And for a game to be fair, every one needs to have a initial situation, all pay with pad, or all play with keyboard. I did, i use to have a average K/D ratio about 1,3 depending on FPS. It was about the same in Dust to, now I'm at 0,8. I play always a "logistic" or a class who comes next to it. (I have a lot of other indications) BTW there is another problem, the problem being a logistic ( its a ccp wide problem, in eve online logic have a hard time as well). 1. It is tacking way to long to receive the points for repairing, repairing a Scout or a Assault is "pointless" (haha you get the wordplay?). Repairing makes only sense on a heavy or on a vehicle. 2. The second problem is that the unit you try to repair don't know that there is some one behind trying to help. So the very most people just runs out of your range. 3. Mini Map. it would be great if other players who are damaged could see remote armor repair units on the field. 4. Nano Injectors. Well ... Nano Injectors did work yes, but its hard as ** to get them in the person i like to revive. I would be nice if you could just hammering this thing right in to the one ling to your feet without making the "holy crap where the ** is this right spot dance" which looks like diarrhea to other who watching it. 5. Drop suits should get bonuses like 5% per skill on rap, or hacking speed, own repair amount, you could separate this between the races. 6. Leader-boards. Well this problem is in EVE very similar, the logistics don't get the tribute they should get. All you see is a top leader on the board who killed a lot of people without dying, but you don't see that there are three logis behind him, doing their best to keep him alive. More esteem for the logic would be nice. May be a support tap on the leader-board. The leader/squad management is broken as well.
TiMeSpLiT--TeR Planetary Response Organisation Test Friends Please Ignore 326	Posted - 2012.09.10 15:08:00 - [20] - Quote They should do something about the dancing in the game. It's like no point of aiming, just pray and spray.

Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.09.10 15:19:00 - [21] - Quote I'd far rather dancing UT/Quake game play to world of tanks. Dancing isn't very effective against fully auto weaponry. Getcha wiggle on.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.10 15:24:00 - [22] - Quote Im with tony here, I rather have more lame infantry than lame tanks.
Tony Calif Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 2002	Posted - 2012.09.10 15:51:00 - [23] - Quote Waiting for "why can't my tank strafe?" thread.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.10 15:53:00 - [24] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Waiting for "why can't my tank strafe?" thread. If I ever see more tank vs tank battles I can see this being common especially blaster tanks vs rail tanks. Rail tanks can spin fast enough.
fenrir storm Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic 314	Posted - 2012.09.10 16:11:00 - [25] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: Waiting for "why can't my tank strafe?" thread. Be careful what you ask for
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.10 17:23:00 - [26] - Quote 1 year from now> CCP introduces new class of HAVs called Hoover HAVs unlike their traditional threaded cousins these HAVs sacrifice defenses for mobility and agility able to go in any direction and strafing larger and slower tanks. Due to lightening up to make the hoovering possible this HAV has only one main gun and one secondary.
Mosley Harmless Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.09.10 17:28:00 - [27] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: 1 year from now> CCP introduces new class of HAVs called Hoover HAVs unlike their traditional threaded cousins these HAVs sacrifice defenses for mobility and agility able to go in any direction and strafing larger and slower tanks. Due to lightening up to make the hoovering possible this HAV has only one main gun and one secondary. Magrider from Planetside 2?
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.09.10 17:29:00 - [28] - Quote What would it be magnetic based?
Mosley Harmless Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 17	Posted - 2012.09.10 17:36:00 - [29] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: What would it be magnetic based? Don't know, it's the first thing that came to mind. Wether it's hover or magnetic, it'd make for a good transport vehicle, something in between a LAV and a HAV.


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