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Nova Knife
Seituoda Taskforce Command
Caldari State
789
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:21:00 -
[1] - Quote
Long story short, these need to be looked at. Passive scanning is not fun.
The chevrons appear for a moment when someone spawns, even if no one has line of sight on them. This makes it easy to dart toward someone as they get their bearings and kill them. This is considered 'unfun' and I am fairly confident that this is a bug.
The range at which chevrons appear is also far too long. This makes it far too easy as a vehicle driver to stay at ranges where I am untouchable to counterattack and just fire high damage splash rounds at enemy chevrons without having ever seen them. It clutters the screen. I get that this is the future and all, but should I really get to see -exactly- where four enemies are, through walls 200m away? It eliminates wandering which is good for large maps, but it really is unfun for me to know exactly where people are without any active effort on the part of myself or my teammates to convey that information.
Not only the range is bad. The angle is bad. I don't even need to have my crosshairs on someone to make their chevron appear. All I need to do is look in their general direction as they shoot from seemingly any range and the game nicely highlights their exact position for me and my entire team. It makes it too easy to pinpoint and kill anyone attempting to hide. I cannot tell you how many AV dudes in hills were well hidden and I would've never seen them ducked back behind their hill had the game not conveniently broadcast their exact location for me just by me pointing my turret in their general direction. This contributes the the 'immortal tanks' issue. People need to be able to hide. The easiest solution is to limit passive spotting. Make it so someone has to actually be in scan range while in someone's crosshairs and 'scanned' for their chevron to appear to the whole team without visual contact. Snipers may take issue with limiting the range that a chevron will appear at. Maybe extend chevron range for snipers while scoped only. No naked eye 600m chevrons.
Currently, someone firing their weapon will get a chevron and an indicator on the map. This indicator is mostly fine. Knowing the general direction someone firing loud bullets and missiles from is important and a core FPS mechanic. But knowing their exact location without having to actually look for them is not fun. Knowing from my map exactly which way an enemy is facing is bad as well. I should need to be cautious when nearing a red dot on my map. Knowing that he is looking the other way without ever having seen him though? That's terrible. It removes alot of challenge from the game. It is not really fun when I can look at my map and go "Teehee I can go knife this guy and he'll never see me!"
All of this is easily explained by 'This is the future, they obviously have the tech to make all of this possible!!!" But the lore/story excuse is bullshit. Gameplay defines story and lore, not the other way around. Unfun gameplay is not good.
TL:DR : The problems &Solutions
- (Bug?) Chevrons appear for a brief moment whenever an enemy spawns nearby. The chevron actually appears before their model does! (Even if no one saw them spawn.) This makes it too easy to kill someone as soon as/shortly after they spawn.
Solution : Add a scanning immunity (Not damage immunity) to players for a few seconds after they spawn. This will prevent them from being marked before they have a chance to do anything.
- Enemy positions can be pinpointed from too far away, allowing some weapons(Railguns, missle launchers, etc.) to fire on enemies without actually seeing them, and from ranges where counterattack is usually impossible.
Solution : Reduce the range at which these appear. Maybe replace with a 'hotspot indicator' so a teammate knows fighting is occuring further away and they should get over there. Knowing the general location of enemies is fine, knowing their precise location at extreme range is not. Related: Reduce maximum flight time of missile launchers to cap their range.
- Enemy positions can be discovered without any real effort from anyone to mark them
Solution : Make the firing effect of weapons more pronounced. More muzzle flash from snipers, etc. Add ways to visually distinguish a location instead of handing the exact location on a silver platter to anyone remotely looking in that direction. Prevent chevrons from appearing automatically to anything that has them in their field of view. The scan radius and range of the crosshair should determine if someone gets a chevron when they shoot in visual range. This makes it possible for someone on your screen to 'hide' if they are firing their weapon from a range further than the optimal scan range and/or not within or reasonably close to your crosshairs. Also differentiate between you seeing the chevron and it being broadcast to your team. The enemy chevron should not appear to your whole team unless you have 'scanned them' with your crosshair.
- Map showing the direction someone is facing even if there is no visual contact
Solution : Make the indicator on the map a simple red dot for enemies. Keep the current friendly indicators.
- Knowing exactly where an enemy is, even through walls without prior visual contact. This removes the chance of them flanking you if you follow itas they run around.
Solution : Without someone actively scanning them, make their chevron vanish more quickly when visual contact is lost. This makes things exciting when someone is playing cover games as opposed to you knowing exactlywhich way they arecoming out, every time.
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Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
Sounds of enemy weapon fire right behind you doesnt make them appear, which further means that the sensors are using muzzel flash and visual, audio needs ot be included but also dynamic such as being in a reactor room makes sound not as useful. |
Captain-Awesome
38
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
I agree with this, it's a lill bit cod but I still agree.
snipers don't get it easy when they are trying to hide, but then look at the size of the maps, a sniper in the hills with no chevron? that's gonna be a nightmare for anyone. These are huge maps, any muzzle flash won't be enough - maybe a fading chevron for every shot they make? would make more sense, the flash would be nice but I think too quick, would have to be noticeable considering otosanookami can now snipe over 750 metres. but to argue that would say it's not easy to kill moving targets as a sniper in object intense areas. so again I will agree with you on super chevrons from snipers only and chevrons from when you are able to reach with bullets. |
Iron Wolf Saber
BetaMax.
2867
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
+5 recon points for any target tagged by scope for the team but doesnt contribute to the kill.
Also this would make skills involving passive sensors more prevailant and allows for the shield tanking drawback to be added.
And this will make active scanning tools very very useful and opesn the door for more fun things like decoys and sensor scramblers. |
Skytt Syysch
Villore Sec Ops
Gallente Federation
235
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Posted - 2012.09.06 23:44:00 -
[5] - Quote
I didn't read your wall of text, but we talked a little in IRC. Here's my opinion of how passive scanning should work:
You see:
1. Red dots on the mini-map for enemies that are in the FOV of your teammates (no direction markers).
2. Chevrons for enemies that your teammates are zoomed in on.
3. Chevrons and mini-map data (including direction) for enemies in your FOV.
Also, #3 for enemies inside active scanners. |
Otosan Ookami
Royal Uhlans
Amarr Empire
33
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Posted - 2012.09.07 03:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
To be honest, it's almost cheating at times.... if people weren't so damn squirmy at that range.
To be perfectly blunt, the shot selection you get is far thinner than the more typical 200-500 range, and when you miss 4-5 kills, that can be your entire match.
My best matches are the ones where snipers go to the tops of anything and light themselves up for the easy kill.
Linked dropsuit sensors backed up by either Satellites, Scanning ships, or even the MCC's stream from hanging a guy on a rope out a window with a Smartphone camera....
All without using a Scanning mod/computer enhancement? In 1km "ish" maps? Bigger maps will help that firstly. (SoonGäó!)
Active shooters/engagements of all stripes should be illuminated (even in the overhead map) by simple virtue of "Those crazy spacemen watching us" and flagged for just a LITTLE bit longer between shots.... And of course mitigated by similar use of the Dropsuit skill (-5% to signature profile) or upcoming Cloaking ability.
I can't wait for Cloak-Scouts.
Map zoom should be limited, but I've caught more than one Tower camper in their dropship... they do blend in a bit, but they are quite exposed. . Big things on map.. Good!
Tracking individual people down by the map would just be a different "Kill cam"..... Bad! ( of course, I'm biased there)
As to the problem of Turret-Jerking....They're either an Annoyance with a mediocre user, or a nightmare with 600m+ range in the hands of someone out for Giggles. Turrets should armor the user, be a bit more durable, but be very hard to get out of at speed... Go down with the ship so to speak...
As to finding our next victim, I do a LOT of sweeping the landscape on snipe when no "easy" targets are presenting themselves.
I look for movement, Muzzle flash, exchanges of fire, any bump along a ridge that wasn't there a second ago. As long as the Chevron appears within a reasonable radius of the center of the turret/Scope, I don't see this as too painful to overcome. If you aren't shooting, only your motion, or direct LOS with the shooter, or an engaged teammate should light you up.
Even the furthest unlit sniper lights up the reticle if they're inside your range, but sometimes you have to be maddeningly precise to even see them.
If I want this sort of Omniscient knowledge, If not a specialized "Command" suit, I really would prefer to have an active scanning role as a "traditional" sniper, and as I've made clear in the past, a Forward, lightly armed scout with a Laser Painter to guide indirect fire, (or light up all scanned/painted enemies like the sun) would be greatly in keeping with the intent of scouting.
I'll be seeing everybody :) |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
328
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Posted - 2012.09.07 23:20:00 -
[7] - Quote
As assault I use the chevrons constantly not to kill people directly but to find and engage people.
I very much like that the dots show where someone is pointed at a given moment and use that constantly. I watch the map even in the middle of some firefights.
Any nerf to this would be a serious problem in the current sniper/infantry balance. As it is it gives us an opportunity to find and kill snipers. I wouldn't like that nerfed away.
I think its a big cool part of the game and I want it to get more interesting with target painting from covops, ECM and signature radius etc.
I wouldn't want problems that it causes with specific weapons to ruin what is fundamentally a solid and well done system.
The dots fade at a proper interval as it is. I can very frequently sneak up on people etc. It's not actually a problem that needs solving there.
I love Ironwolf's idea of covops getting +5s for spotting. |
Pezz IsDank
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
171
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Posted - 2012.09.07 23:30:00 -
[8] - Quote
Telcontar Dunedain wrote:As assault I use the chevrons constantly not to kill people directly but to find and engage people
Knowing the location of the enemy, and the direction they are facing without seeing them is a poor mechanic IMO. It makes it far too easy to sneak up on people and makes the game more about staring at the radar than actually scanning for enemies with your eyes on your screen. I've been looking at the radar A LOT since I started playing this beta and have been having some great matches because of it, if anyone flanking me is seen by anyone on my team I turn around a corner and turn around ready to shoot. That's not right imho, people should have to use their eyes and spot their prey instead of it being handed to them.
If people have a hard time finding enemies because of them making the radar less effective than just boost the player count allowed on the maps. |
Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
328
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Posted - 2012.09.07 23:47:00 -
[9] - Quote
Pezz IsDank wrote:Telcontar Dunedain wrote:As assault I use the chevrons constantly not to kill people directly but to find and engage people Knowing the location of the enemy, and the direction they are facing without seeing them is a poor mechanic IMO. It makes it far too easy to sneak up on people and makes the game more about staring at the radar than actually scanning for enemies with your eyes on your screen. I've been looking at the radar A LOT since I started playing this beta and have been having some great matches because of it, if anyone flanking me is seen by anyone on my team I turn around a corner and turn around ready to shoot. That's not right imho, people should have to use their eyes and spot their prey instead of it being handed to them. If people have a hard time finding enemies because of them making the radar less effective than just boost the player count allowed on the maps.
If you are able to turn around and meet someone coming at you its because they were under direct observation very recently... thats not bad or broken its working as intended.
It's an interesting mechanic that doesn't belong in every single shooter but works well in Dust514.
Removing the mechanic would just homogenize Dust into some other shooter.
It has great potential to make for very interesting fights as they improve the things that add into it. I was very excited to hear about it when they first described ECM etc and its a good start on what they talked about.
I think you should consider how it could be added to with stealth/scanning/ecm grenades added in.
It's interesting that Nova says it makes it hard to sneak up on people and you say it makes it easy to sneak up on people...this probably indicates that its not the issue either of you thinks it is.
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Pezz IsDank
Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz
RISE of LEGION
171
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Posted - 2012.09.07 23:56:00 -
[10] - Quote
Telcontar Dunedain wrote:Pezz IsDank wrote:Telcontar Dunedain wrote:As assault I use the chevrons constantly not to kill people directly but to find and engage people Knowing the location of the enemy, and the direction they are facing without seeing them is a poor mechanic IMO. It makes it far too easy to sneak up on people and makes the game more about staring at the radar than actually scanning for enemies with your eyes on your screen. I've been looking at the radar A LOT since I started playing this beta and have been having some great matches because of it, if anyone flanking me is seen by anyone on my team I turn around a corner and turn around ready to shoot. That's not right imho, people should have to use their eyes and spot their prey instead of it being handed to them. If people have a hard time finding enemies because of them making the radar less effective than just boost the player count allowed on the maps. If you are able to turn around and meet someone coming at you its because they were under direct observation very recently... thats not bad or broken its working as intended. It's an interesting mechanic that doesn't belong in every single shooter but works well in Dust514. Removing the mechanic would just homogenize Dust into some other shooter. It has great potential to make for very interesting fights as they improve the things that add into it. I was very excited to hear about it when they first described ECM etc and its a good start on what they talked about. I think you should consider how it could be added to with stealth/scanning/ecm grenades added in. It's interesting that Nova says it makes it hard to sneak up on people and you say it makes it easy to sneak up on people...this probably indicates that its not the issue either of you thinks it is.
In my opinion when it comes to shooters it should come down to the communication of the players on your team being used to spot other players instead of just looking at them. It's like if battlefields spotting system did it automatically. I get that this is a futuristic game but I think it's holding the players hand too much.
I personally don't think that the only thing separating Dust from some other shooter is only how effective the radar is.
It depends what equipment and stuff they plan on adding to the game come release time. If they give people some stuff that prevents people from coming up on radars so easily that would be nice and I probably wouldn't mind so much. But judging from what we have right now I feel the game holds the gamers hand too much.
It's a double edged sword really, as long as no one looks at your while your flanking someone and the person doesn't turn around to check their 6 you're golden. If just one enemy sees you on their screen however you light up on everyones making it more difficult to sneak up on people.
As it stands right now I don't care all that much but I do prefer the game being more reliant on skill and self observation other than the radar.
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Telcontar Dunedain
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
328
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Posted - 2012.09.08 00:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pezz IsDank wrote:
In my opinion when it comes to shooters it should come down to the communication of the players on your team being used to spot other players instead of just looking at them. It's like if battlefields spotting system did it automatically. I get that this is a futuristic game but I think it's holding the players hand too much.
I personally don't think that the only thing separating Dust from some other shooter is only how effective the radar is.
It depends what equipment and stuff they plan on adding to the game come release time. If they give people some stuff that prevents people from coming up on radars so easily that would be nice and I probably wouldn't mind so much. But judging from what we have right now I feel the game holds the gamers hand too much.
It's a double edged sword really, as long as no one looks at your while your flanking someone and the person doesn't turn around to check their 6 you're golden. If just one enemy sees you on their screen however you light up on everyones making it more difficult to sneak up on people.
As it stands right now I don't care all that much but I do prefer the game being more reliant on skill and self observation other than the radar.
We are going to have some big complicated fights that wouldn't be possible in these other games.
You'll be fighting in corps that are way more organized than just about any fps game I've played (except Darkfall). I know Arma2 is pretty organized though too, but those games don't have the long term economic pressures of Eve to stay organized and win, Dust514 will.
The scanning system will help/hinder(with ecm etc) commanders and squaddies in making good decisions in those big fights.
I think the system will be really cool in those circumstances and I really enjoy fighting with the way it is now even in these small fights.
Again you are relying on your -teammates- to get eyes on the enemy, that's how they show up. Snipers/covops will be particularly important as spotters as well.
Look at the Dropsuit command skill...see the bonus it gives? That should be reducing the time you stay on scan ;) More to come Soon as they say. |
Billi Gene
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
130
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Posted - 2012.09.08 04:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
"perfect paranoia, is perfect awareness."
The detection system rewards alert players.
its hard to sneak up on someone that is actively scanning around themselves at intervals.
The first lesson of sniper school is "how to disappear". Most other suits would do well to drop in on that lecture. Its not so hard, don't use sprint to reach your final position, use cover and crouch when no one is near you, know where your enemy is and use cover to block their visuals when traveling from point A to point B. Following these rules, the only times you will get caught are by firing a weapon within visual range of an enemy(outside of visual range you can still see the muzzle flash on larger maps), or because there was an enemy that hadn't yet been spotted by another friendly(who also happened to be near enough to get a visual on you).
Hopefully we get a good look at cloaking, ECM and ECCM soon.
I also reserve the right to change my mind and contradict anything i may or may not have stated, intimated or inclined as fact.© |
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