DUST Search - [Feedback] Reworking the vehicle turrets to fit specific roles

Thor Thunder Fist wrote:

um....... it takes 7 shots to overheat a railgun dude........so your saying I should have to reload before I overheat? bah rails are fine with there over heat system if you miss too many times you have to stop for 5-10 sec. missiles could use reloading but I think blasters are fine without due to there lack of usefulness atm

Skytt Syysch wrote:

Large Missiles:

The problem: Missiles have way too much direct damage. They outclass railguns by far (the absolute weakest missile being the ONLY one that doesn't out-dps the strongest railgun), and this is what makes them too well-rounded. The splash damage is also high - ranging from 220.5 to 318.5 - enough to oneshot a lot of smaller suits and twoshot a lot of advanced and prototype setups (and it fires 4 times at once). The splash damage isn't a HUGE concern, if it's supposed to act as anti-infantry, though.

The solution:Tone down the direct damage. It is currently 351 to 507 per missile, and we're talking drop it to the 50-100 range. The missile's damage should be almost entirely in its splash, with direct being a very minor bonus (a direct hit should also apply splash damage).Edit: Direct damage should have a penalty vs not-infantry (50-75%). If the current suit hp levels are to stay, the splash damage could use a little weakening as well, since proto heavies won't be like mini-LAVs in terms of health anymore.

Ammo change: 24 missiles (6 shots). 25 second reload.


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Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.04 23:30:00 - [1] - Quote Last build, the vehicle turrets felt like they were designed for specific roles - missiles were anti-infantry, railguns were anti-vehicle/structure, blasters were... useless. But now everything is too good at everything (blasters are still useless though), which is where part of the problem stems from. Also, dual passenger turrets being roughly equal to or even greater damage than the main turret is a problem. Below, I will highlight the problems and discuss proposed changes to bring things into a better balance. Also, a change regarding ammo is being added in with the suggestions, in order to bring some strategy to pushing into combat, and a reload that leaves one vulnerable and relying on assistance. This is purely a reload mechanic, and not a finite ammo supply. The reloads will also take cap to perform, if it's ever added into Dust, to prevent spamming reload after every single shot. The ammo and reload changes also open up the opportunity for additional skill effects. The operator, whether the driver on the main turret or a passenger controlling a small turret, would have the ability to skill into the turret and turret proficiency skills for bonus effects such as heat management, reload speed, and accuracy for the turret they are using. In the end, the turrets need to fall into roles and not be able to do everything. Missiles are the anti-infantry king, railguns are the overall single target damage beasts, blasters will handle close quarters burst damage, and thinking ahead, lasers should manage medium range sustained damage, artillery high damage long-range against ground targets, and autocannon the anti-air choice. Large Blasters: The problem: Blasters currently have the highest dps (damage per second) by far, but only before overheating has to be taken into effect. They get roughly 5 seconds of damage before they have to fight the overheating mechanic, preventing them from sustaining the consistant rate of fire that the other turrets have available to them. This allows them to be great at taking out a low health, stationary target, such as an LAV or dropship that's just sitting or hovering there, but anything bigger or more mobile can soak the damage, activate their repair, and then be invincible as the operator struggles against the overheating. The solution: Blasters need the hit detection fix more than any other turret, but an additional fix that could make them a more viable option would be better cooling. If the overheat cooled off more quickly, it'd act more as a momentary quick delay rather than going from auto-fire then dropping down to a permanent period of very short bursts. Ammo change: 100 rounds. 15 second reload. Large Missiles: The problem: Missiles have way too much direct damage. They outclass railguns by far (the absolute weakest missile being the ONLY one that doesn't out-dps the strongest railgun), and this is what makes them too well-rounded. The splash damage is also high - ranging from 220.5 to 318.5 - enough to oneshot a lot of smaller suits and twoshot a lot of advanced and prototype setups (and it fires 4 times at once). The splash damage isn't a HUGE concern, if it's supposed to act as anti-infantry, though. The solution:Tone down the direct damage. It is currently 351 to 507 per missile, and we're talking drop it to the 50-100 range. The missile's damage should be almost entirely in its splash, with direct being a very minor bonus (a direct hit should also apply splash damage).Edit: Direct damage should have a penalty vs not-infantry (50-75%). If the current suit hp levels are to stay, the splash damage could use a little weakening as well, since proto heavies won't be like mini-LAVs in terms of health anymore. Ammo change: 24 missiles (6 shots). 25 second reload. Large Railguns: The problem: Railguns have way too much splash damage and splash radius. Last build, I and others felt things were fine. I forget what the radius was, but it felt about 3m, and the damage felt weakened vs infantry and in the range of 100-200 damage or so. Currently, railgun splash radius is 5m, and 415.5 to 674.4 damage. This will essentially oneshot most advanced and even prototype non-heavy suits. The solution: Lower the splash radius and splash damage. A roughly 1-1.5m radius would be fine, and the splash damage being brought way back down to the 100-200 range. This would make it more of a precision weapon, with close hits not being fully wasted, but not lethal either. Ammo change: 5 rails. 20 second reload. Small Blasters: The problem: The small blasters are hit with the same problem the large versions have. They have vastly more dps than the other small turrets, but become much weaker due to having to fight the overheating. They also suffer from a large amount of inaccuracy likely due to the current hit detection problems. The solution: Quicker cooling on the overheating. Possibly a tighter spread. Ammo change: 200 rounds. 10 second reload.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.04 23:30:00 - [2] - Quote Small Missiles: The problem: Small missiles are really the only go-to small turret. That right there indicates a problem. The small missiles are too good at everything. They have the second-highest direct damage dps (some variants being fairly close to blasters), and by far the highest splash damage dps. They suffer from the same problem the large missiles do in that their direct damage is way too high. It's in the 262.5 to 455 range, enough to oneshot a lot of lower to mid-range suits, and making them a very good anti-vehicle/structure choice. The solution: Lower direct damage immensely; the majority of the damage should be in the splash with a direct hit only providing a minor bonus. Also, as the current mechanics allow the small missiles to be too good at suppressing infantry threats, the rate of fire could be slowed slightly. Ammo change: 12 missiles. 20 second reload. Small Railguns: The problem: Small railguns are currently largely shadowed by small missiles' ability to fulfill the anti-vehicle/structure role. The solution: Pending re-testing after changes to small missiles. Small railgun direct damage is good, and increasing it through damage or rate of fire would cause the problem of 2 small turrets out-damaging the large turret. Ammo change: 10 rails. 15 second reload. Summary: Blasters should be the highest damage, but be very restricted by range. Reloads would be quick, as it's essentially just swapping a belt of ammo. Artillery would be the second highest damage, but be arcing shots that have long travel time. Direct damage would be heavy-hitting, with a high radius, low damage splash. Reloads would be quick, but ammo would be single fire per reload. Railguns would be long-range, quick travelling high damage. Ammo is a concern, but reloads aren't too long. Lasers should deal moderate, constant damage, restricted to a medium range. They would have no ammo concerns, and be limited only by overheating. They should have the highest overall damage over time, but no possibility for burst damage. Autocannons should be for anti-air, firing fast traveling, long range explosive rounds. Ideally, they would be a high-damage splash effect like a flak cannon, and have their rounds triggered to explode if passing within a certain proximity of aerial vehicles (like the AV grenade magnetic trigger). Direct damage should still be possible if used against ground vehicles, but should be on the lower end of damage output, and should really only act as suppression against infantry, not something that is going to wipe the floor with them. They should have a large amount of ammo, with a long reload. Missiles should be almost exclusively for infantry. They have some capabilities to take on vehicles and structures, but should be outclassed by pretty much everything else, and should be the last resort against such things. They should be what ground soldiers fear. They should have a small to moderate supply of ammo and a moderate to long reload due to the bulkiness of the ammo.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.05 01:12:00 - [3] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: dunno 100 bullets for a blaster? they empty out pretty damned fast and would have no endurance on the field at all. Since we talked about it in IRC, and for anyone else who misses the part, the ammo counts are only per reload, with an infinite supply. The reload is to present a weak point on the vehicle, and to prevent just unlimited damage output on the tank's part.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.05 06:47:00 - [4] - Quote Also brought up earlier was the idea of variants to turrets (beyond what we have now). The above examples were essentially for standard turrets, while other variants can still exist that offer altered ammo capacities and reload speeds and whatnot. For example there could be a simple standard variant that all it had was more ammo but required more CPU/PG to equip, or there could be a variant that is quicker reloading and less damaging due to lighter ammo used.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.05 18:22:00 - [5] - Quote Encharrion wrote: Edit: The reloads are too frequent and too long. 5 shots with my railgun, and then I need to spend 25 seconds reloading? Really? I think it should be more like 25-30 railgun shots with a 60-90 second reload. The whole point is to require tanks to back off for a period of time, but it shouldn't be too frequent. It shouldn't prevent the tank from putting pressure on the other team, with longer time between reloads and longer reload times. It's 20 for the railgun, but the numbers for the large turrets were actually chosen because they all give roughly the same length of firing time. Under current numbers, it worked out to they could all fire for something like 14-15 seconds straight each. That's largely why the numbers are what they are, but also using the current top tier weapons, it's a lot of damage output. 5 railgun shots has the ability to be just over 10,000 damage. 25-30 rails would last far too long, and never really present you with a need to back off. It'd be enough to go through like 3 or 4 well-fit tanks and some infantry before you had to reload. Also, the small turrets are still there and contributing their damage, and they have quicker reloads. It all gives more reliance on both passengers and infantry, something people have been yelling for. The tank driver is too much of a solo job currently, this would fix that if the main turret was more of an infrequent burst damage role, and passengers handled more long-term dps. And, 20-25 seconds isn't too bad if we're talking about also adding in skills and/or turret variations that can lower that. If you want to coordinate things with your passengers, you'd never have to worry about downtime. But, if you all went in on a big target, you'd need time to recover. That's kind of the reasoning behind the big reloads. If everyone empties their stock all at once, well, you better have secured the area in doing so or be able to get somewhere safe while everyone reloads. Edit: And just a note, these changes and numbers were talked about between myself and Noc, two people who run tanks a large amount of the time and will likely run tanks in the full game. So, it's not like I'm some person who hates all you tank losers and want you to suffer, these are numbers we'd be fine with restricting our rampages.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.06 23:16:00 - [6] - Quote D3LTA NORMANDY wrote: But missle turrets are okay right now as a multi role turret. Missiles really aren't okay at all with how they currently function. Nothing really should be a multi role (so that counters can be established), and missiles are pretty much an every role right now. The only real trouble they have is shooting down a dropship that knows how to keep moving. Both the large and small missiles have the highest effective dps AND the highest splash dps and radius. They're kinda ridiculous right now.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.07 00:43:00 - [7] - Quote General Rian wrote: Skytt Syysch wrote: D3LTA NORMANDY wrote: But missle turrets are okay right now as a multi role turret. Missiles really aren't okay at all with how they currently function. Nothing really should be a multi role (so that counters can be established), and missiles are pretty much an every role right now. The only real trouble they have is shooting down a dropship that knows how to keep moving. Both the large and small missiles have the highest effective dps AND the highest splash dps and radius. They're kinda ridiculous right now. With a Large Missile Turret, hitting a moving dropship is a null-issue unless it's flying high into the air. I was killed very quickly in a well tanked Armor fit dropship even while moving. Yeah, when they connect, they do considerable damage, it's just the ones at extreme distances not moving in a straight line are a huge pain to hit with the travel time on the missiles. They're really the only thing that have an opportunity to be safe from the missiles, everything else is just points.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.08 07:03:00 - [8] - Quote Thor Thunder Fist wrote: um....... it takes 7 shots to overheat a railgun dude........so your saying I should have to reload before I overheat? bah rails are fine with there over heat system if you miss too many times you have to stop for 5-10 sec. missiles could use reloading but I think blasters are fine without due to there lack of usefulness atm Yes, I am saying that. Maybe the overheat should be reworked then if it becomes impossible to overheat. There's no need to stop for "5-10 sec" if you don't fire at maximum speed with it right now anyway, and if you have very brief pauses, you have unending damage output, which is why the reload is being suggested. The HAV needs some form of downtime (that is more than a few seconds), because right now it's just constant damage with no way of stopping the R1 presses, and that stop needs to be there for there to be an opportunity to present an opposition. Skytt Syysch wrote: Large Missiles: The problem: Missiles have way too much direct damage. They outclass railguns by far (the absolute weakest missile being the ONLY one that doesn't out-dps the strongest railgun), and this is what makes them too well-rounded. The splash damage is also high - ranging from 220.5 to 318.5 - enough to oneshot a lot of smaller suits and twoshot a lot of advanced and prototype setups (and it fires 4 times at once). The splash damage isn't a HUGE concern, if it's supposed to act as anti-infantry, though. The solution:Tone down the direct damage. It is currently 351 to 507 per missile, and we're talking drop it to the 50-100 range. The missile's damage should be almost entirely in its splash, with direct being a very minor bonus (a direct hit should also apply splash damage).Edit: Direct damage should have a penalty vs not-infantry (50-75%). If the current suit hp levels are to stay, the splash damage could use a little weakening as well, since proto heavies won't be like mini-LAVs in terms of health anymore. Ammo change: 24 missiles (6 shots). 25 second reload. I've included the above edit to the large missile turrets, indicating that a penalty vs not-infantry is a better approach to balancing them in that respect, rather than simply lowering the damage. The reason being the proposed change to drop the direct damage and include splash per direct hit still resulted in roughly the same direct damage. A 50% penalty should be the smallest penalty it receives, as that places it roughly 66% as effective as railguns against vehicles and structures using current values, which is still fairly close considering the gap envisioned in the effectiveness between the two is larger.
Skytt Syysch Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 235	Posted - 2012.09.08 19:50:00 - [9] - Quote Etero Narciss wrote: Sooo... has this presented to the devs in IRC? Or should we spam the link to this thread whenever their presence is detected? I already handed it off to one of them, yeah, though not sure if he passed it off to others or just read through it when I linked it to him. I'm in the IRC myself pretty regularly, and I throw the link out every time "tanks are OP" starts, which is pretty much 20 hours a day lately, but I think the devs flee from their computers when it begins.