DUST Search - Tanks vs. AV

Carilito wrote:

Pezz IsDank wrote:

Pent'noir wrote:

Proto swarms
250dmg per missle for 6 missles, giving 1500 dmg per swarm launch.
You have 4 rounds per clip and holdling a max of 6 in storage, for a total of 10 swarm launches.

It will take about 3-5 seconds to aquire a lock per swarm launch, with an extra 4.5 seconds for reload every 4 launches.

I have no idea what the ehp of a good tank is, but lets just say it is 18k ehp.

Given a squad of 4 ppl, all with proto swarms.

1500dmg x4 = 6k per launch.
6k x 3 launches =18k
It would take between 9-15 seconds to do three launches.
Probably take 4 launches to account for the tank reps... (although, unless in a bad spot, the tank probably found cover by then)

What if they were all suicide fitted with wiyrkomi av grenades
(assuming 196dmg is a typo and it is really 1960 dmg per grenade)
1960 x 3 grenades = 5880 dmg
5880 dmg x 3 ppl per lav = 17640 dmg
Then plus what ever swarms they could get off.

It would appear both methods have merit, unless I'm off on my estimate of the tanks ehp. This could happen in corp matches when ppl are organized, but rarely in the public matches. Almost the only hope for a public match is to have a majority of your team switch to av or someone calls in their own tank.

Don't forget to take into account the damage resistance amplifiers that I believe every well fit marauder tank has. I had 2x 25% ones on mine and DCU, giving me around 55-60% damage reduction IIRC.

The math is right Dmg/investment wise but to actually do it in practice is a 100k+ loss every time for the AV squad due to one or two of the anti av is gonna die. No losses on the HAV squad except for EHP.

Honestly reduce the price by X3 for infantry gear to account for infantry loses and HAVs/AV will be more equal due to the reduced investment of AV supplies Vs the endurance of the HAV

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Khun-Al 135	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:01:00 - [1] - Quote Who do you think has the higher advantage and would win in a battle just between them? A squad of 4 good people with proto AV weapons or a good maraudar driver? Why? Please just AV guys and tank drivers
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:09:00 - [2] - Quote Cant speak for a Maug but my gunlogi would rofl stomp them. Not lost a tank to any infantry in 50+ games now. Its a joke thats not funny anymore. Lets say it was Howdidthattaste,Dark Templar,The Dark Cloud and maybe one of the really upset warrior crew then that might give me pause 4 a few seconds.Unless these 4 AV guys or some of the better lads then nope not a chance in hell. Prove me wrong. Edit: Its broken but as long as we have tank lovers with brown nose's on IRC feeding CCP the welp my poor tank lifes so hard and expensive dribble then expect the beatings to continue. BTW if you see me out of a tank be nice cos I have totaly forgotten how to aim and its like kicking a puppy maky
Carilito Algintal Core Gallente Federation 345	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:13:00 - [3] - Quote Tank Drivers; The Av guys have to lower the teams overall DPS against the band of roaming infantry, while the Tank Drivers ostensibly creates a 3 man squad with massive armor/DPS buffs that can easily support and be supported by infantry. This is very realistic in terms of heavy warfare but when you are able to just air drop HAVs with out any thought to logistics(how did those drop ships get here and why didnt anything get set up to stop them) isnt realistic at all. Ambush maps right now seem to be HAV group are spawned in the beginning and a big battle happens and one sides HAVs are usually left standing. No one wants to waste isk by dropping in another proto HAV in a disadvantaged fight so it turn to AV infantry to take them down. Vietnam had a better survival ratio then a concentrated AV assault, granted some HAVs will die but the cost in clones is to much. As it stands a dumb ass calling in a proto HAV can almost gurantee 30 clone kills if no other HAVs are on the ground, this is fact. Thats half an ambush game BTW. The Av guys is ******
NEGA LEAVESEY Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:13:00 - [4] - Quote Hmmm. Go on, I'll bite. Depends on map and situation I guess. If the tank is penned in ant the terrain is favourable then probably AV but otherwise, tank would just run off and pick them off from distance. This is assuming the tank driver has turret operators.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:14:00 - [5] - Quote Ow for clarity I ment if I was solo in a tank with no gunners.
Carilito Algintal Core Gallente Federation 345	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:14:00 - [6] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Cant speak for a Maug but my gunlogi would rofl stomp them. Not lost a tank to any infantry in 50+ games now. Its a joke thats not funny anymore. Lets say it was Howdidthattaste,Dark Templar,The Dark Cloud and maybe one of the really upset warrior crew then that might give me pause 4 a few seconds.Unless these 4 AV guys or some of the better lads then nope not a chance in hell. Prove me wrong. Edit: Its broken but as long as we have tank lovers with brown nose's on IRC feeding CCP the welp my poor tank lifes so hard and expensive dribble then expect the beatings to continue. BTW if you see me out of a tank be nice cos I have totaly forgotten how to aim and its like kicking a puppy maky Signed
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1904	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:15:00 - [7] - Quote I've taken to praying to the God of Invalid fits to slay HAVs. I sacrifice virgins in an attempt to steer them over red lines as well. It seems to be doing alright.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:17:00 - [8] - Quote Right dude thats not cool becuase i have lost 7 tanks to redlines so far and well I'm sadpanda about it. Maybe your right tho even a tank hating tank drivers tank is better off in the boneyard.
NEGA LEAVESEY Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:20:00 - [9] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: BTW if you see me out of a tank be nice cos I have totaly forgotten how to aim and its like kicking a puppy maky Is that why you went fat suit /HMG spray and pray yesterday? We lost but that was a fun game
Carilito Algintal Core Gallente Federation 345	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:21:00 - [10] - Quote I know the people who are guaranteed to spawn an HAV and you know who you are; when I see these people I generally dont take out my pro fits and I try to hunt them as much as I can. Militia Sniper Rifle Is the best counter to HAVs and thats sad. I have to kill all the infantry from a spot that when they shoot at me the hit detection makes its so it has to pass/hit by 3 or 4 obstructions. Then I have to take fire until they are dead or I am dead then Av can swarm the beast then we can work on winning.

Waruiko DUST G I A N T 90	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:23:00 - [11] - Quote good AV works as a group and could trash a Syura in full tanky fit easy. Even more so if they are in full Proto. People ***** about it but I've not seen any protp swarm or AV nades used against my tanks yet.
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:24:00 - [12] - Quote NEGA LEAVESEY wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: BTW if you see me out of a tank be nice cos I have totaly forgotten how to aim and its like kicking a puppy maky Is that why you went fat suit /HMG spray and pray yesterday? We lost but that was a fun game Yes I am a horrible bad suck at FPS player but thats because I'm an eve tard. Just ask anyone I suck so bad I have to use a tank. If you died to my fat suit that was prob just some bullet that went astray and you were unlucky. I even crapper in a scout suit. Maybe I should try sniping yes ?
lDocHollidayl Imperfects Negative-Feedback 171	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:27:00 - [13] - Quote Tank wins in kills and death. Hands down. Mobility makes it king. Nerfs to AV makes it emperor. However they will not win skirmish matches. The match goes to the squad. I have a tank hunting crew...the only kittening hard part is the tanks are so fast.
DUST Fiend Immobile Infantry 1904	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:27:00 - [14] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Maybe I should try sniping yes ? But, I thought you drive tanks? Isn't that sort of the same thing?
Pezz IsDank Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 171	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:28:00 - [15] - Quote The last build I went proto SL and focused a lot on taking out vehicles whenever they seemed to be making an impact. Near the end of the build I trained into a sagaris and enjoyed rolling around basically invincible, being able to take one swarm launchers aggro without having to activate my shield regenerator, I'd consider it after 10+ volleys usually since I was running a heavy shield regen and a normal one. I don't think the situation should be only involving the two groups, need to take everything into account.. like the fact that it's 4 people focusing on what could be one opponent, that leaves a nice opening for the tanks team to take action. Right now I think a good marauder driver has the advantage even if it's 4 guys focused on it with proto weapons. Prototype swarm launchers are cake to avoid, they're only a real problem if you get stuck and can't get out of the mess. A well fit marauder should be able to take quite the beating because it'll probably have around 55% damage reduction (2 resistance amplifiers & a DCU is what I did) and high HP. If the enemy team gets smart and starts using swarm launchers in masses the counter is pretty simple and very easy to achieve, especially with the new flight pattern and missiles not going as far in the direction they're pointed before homing like in the last build. You can't keep your lock on either after a vehicle has gone behind cover which makes it a lot easier as well I would think. Anyways, just roll out of the danger zone (lawls), use buildings/objects to break the lock ons by swarm launchers and find a spot a fair distance away where you can see the and still get kills once in awhile but can see all swarms headed to you. Every time they're about to hit, reverse a little bit, wait to hear all the explosions from the missiles, go back and get a few kills, rinse and repeat. I see that one used all the time and it works like a charm. So you got 4+ enemies focused on you and they're in fits that are likely to be terrible against other infantry. That's where the rest of your team comes into play, they push and flank while the others are busy trying to take you down when there's no way in hell. With the forge guns stupid range now it's not like you have to worry about getting blasted by a couple of those when doing that from a distance, they'd have to jump into an LAV, avoid your LOS, go behind you and surprise you. Haven't seen this done before myself but sounds like an idea, I wouldn't train into a heavy suit though. It would be nice if people could carry 5 RE's instead of 2 and they were effective enough to take one down if all 5 were laid on a tank. It takes so many people working together to destroy a tank to the point where they leave themselves open for the rest of their team to take their objectives, and/or flank them while the tank can almost always retreat and survive as long as it's well fit and the driver knows when to get out of the firestorm. The only good counter to tanks that I see are other tanks which is not just bad or wrong but badong. I get it though, they're most likely just trying to make this build really tank heavy to test out a bunch of tank vs tank combat. That just sucks for anyone that doesn't specialize in tanks and plays with randoms, like I do <(X.x)>. I thought the tanks were OP enough last build as I was driving my Sagaris, but now it's even worse and I haven't bothered to play enough to play with them lol. TLDR: The tank has the advantage. Easy to get away in one that's properly fit, easy to avoid the damage and still take shots at them. Plus that's so many of the enemy team distracted and focused on you so that the rest of your team can easily roll objectives/flank the AV.
Carilito Algintal Core Gallente Federation 345	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:28:00 - [16] - Quote Last build this question was answered with "its a situational thing" now its most defiantly the HAV driver
Sha Kharn Clone Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS. 1087	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:31:00 - [17] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: Maybe I should try sniping yes ? But, I thought you drive tanks? Isn't that sort of the same thing? Good point rofl at stupid infantry trying to snipe..eat the railcannon rounds !
NEGA LEAVESEY Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 24	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:32:00 - [18] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: NEGA LEAVESEY wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: BTW if you see me out of a tank be nice cos I have totaly forgotten how to aim and its like kicking a puppy maky Is that why you went fat suit /HMG spray and pray yesterday? We lost but that was a fun game Yes I am a horrible bad suck at FPS player but thats because I'm an eve tard. Just ask anyone I suck so bad I have to use a tank. If you died to my fat suit that was prob just some bullet that went astray and you were unlucky. I even crapper in a scout suit. Maybe I should try sniping yes ? Thought you played alright, but i'm no great shakes either. I went 1/1 with you personally and 5/5 during match, came top on my team so yeah, bit of a stomping. My last ever minddrive put you down and the match finished seconds later so it was quickly retired, never to be sold or reprocessed
STB-stlcarlos989 EV Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 936	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:53:00 - [19] - Quote It doesn't help that forge guns, swarms, and AV grenades are now 25% weaker and that the forge gun now had less range than last build. Which is stupid because the description says it shoots a slug at 7000m/s which should give it a range of at least a couple of km.
ICECREAMK1NG WARRIORS 134	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:56:00 - [20] - Quote Waruiko DUST wrote: good AV works as a group and could trash a Syura in full tanky fit easy. Even more so if they are in full Proto. People ***** about it but I've not seen any protp swarm or AV nades used against my tanks yet. And you're probably not likely too either as AV is now a death sentance.

ICECREAMK1NG WARRIORS 134	Posted - 2012.09.01 15:59:00 - [21] - Quote Sha Kharn Clone wrote: NEGA LEAVESEY wrote: Sha Kharn Clone wrote: BTW if you see me out of a tank be nice cos I have totaly forgotten how to aim and its like kicking a puppy maky Is that why you went fat suit /HMG spray and pray yesterday? We lost but that was a fun game Yes I am a horrible bad suck at FPS player but thats because I'm an eve tard. Just ask anyone I suck so bad I have to use a tank. If you died to my fat suit that was prob just some bullet that went astray and you were unlucky. I even crapper in a scout suit. Maybe I should try sniping yes ? lol.... shut up sha, we know you're good, I know you're good, I've had plenty of fights with you. We also know why you are doing tanks, and props to you for standing up to show what a joke it now is.
Pent'noir Algintal Core Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:11:00 - [22] - Quote Proto swarms 250dmg per missle for 6 missles, giving 1500 dmg per swarm launch. You have 4 rounds per clip and holdling a max of 6 in storage, for a total of 10 swarm launches. It will take about 3-5 seconds to aquire a lock per swarm launch, with an extra 4.5 seconds for reload every 4 launches. I have no idea what the ehp of a good tank is, but lets just say it is 18k ehp. Given a squad of 4 ppl, all with proto swarms. 1500dmg x4 = 6k per launch. 6k x 3 launches =18k It would take between 9-15 seconds to do three launches. Probably take 4 launches to account for the tank reps... (although, unless in a bad spot, the tank probably found cover by then) What if they were all suicide fitted with wiyrkomi av grenades (assuming 196dmg is a typo and it is really 1960 dmg per grenade) 1960 x 3 grenades = 5880 dmg 5880 dmg x 3 ppl per lav = 17640 dmg Then plus what ever swarms they could get off. It would appear both methods have merit, unless I'm off on my estimate of the tanks ehp. This could happen in corp matches when ppl are organized, but rarely in the public matches. Almost the only hope for a public match is to have a majority of your team switch to av or someone calls in their own tank.
H4rabec Weathers 16	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:14:00 - [23] - Quote add to the fact that if a tank is on a ridge shooting down the av guys have to actually get level/above the tank to be able to get the swarms to hit. lock on and the swarm tracks straight to target hitting the mountain doing zero damage. so AV has to then run up an already hard to manouver terrain dodging snipers/footsoldiers and other tank spam and LAV. i can guarantee you that the beter corps will have every alley covered and be albe to lock down massive parts of the map with minimal effort.
Pezz IsDank Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 171	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:30:00 - [24] - Quote Pent'noir wrote: Proto swarms 250dmg per missle for 6 missles, giving 1500 dmg per swarm launch. You have 4 rounds per clip and holdling a max of 6 in storage, for a total of 10 swarm launches. It will take about 3-5 seconds to aquire a lock per swarm launch, with an extra 4.5 seconds for reload every 4 launches. I have no idea what the ehp of a good tank is, but lets just say it is 18k ehp. Given a squad of 4 ppl, all with proto swarms. 1500dmg x4 = 6k per launch. 6k x 3 launches =18k It would take between 9-15 seconds to do three launches. Probably take 4 launches to account for the tank reps... (although, unless in a bad spot, the tank probably found cover by then) What if they were all suicide fitted with wiyrkomi av grenades (assuming 196dmg is a typo and it is really 1960 dmg per grenade) 1960 x 3 grenades = 5880 dmg 5880 dmg x 3 ppl per lav = 17640 dmg Then plus what ever swarms they could get off. It would appear both methods have merit, unless I'm off on my estimate of the tanks ehp. This could happen in corp matches when ppl are organized, but rarely in the public matches. Almost the only hope for a public match is to have a majority of your team switch to av or someone calls in their own tank. Don't forget to take into account the damage resistance amplifiers that I believe every well fit marauder tank has. I had 2x 25% ones on mine and DCU, giving me around 55-60% damage reduction IIRC.
Pent'noir Algintal Core Gallente Federation 62	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:46:00 - [25] - Quote All of that should be accounted for in the Effective HP and I thought those things get a stacking penalty. Something like if you have one, then the second only gets half of its stats. However, if someone can estimate their ehp on their tank and show me how they came up with it, then I'm be really happy to see it. All I know is what some ppl have thrown out there for some numbers with nothing to back it up.
Rusty Shallows Creative Killers 11	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:47:00 - [26] - Quote In the last build I would tank hunt using a Dropship with near impunity. There was only one time where the fit seemed to have anti air. The smart ones went under the buildings so they may have not been objective guarding anymore at least they would survive. The dripping irony here is it only took one swarm launcher to drive me off. Which actually makes allot of sense. Haven't been so happy with my AV on foot even fitted for anti-tank. Does anyone actually run AV squads?
Khun-Al 135	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:47:00 - [27] - Quote I would say the tank wins if he isnt a idiot and drives around in open area or they call in a AV tank. The tank will run away and then they come back with full shield and armor and take down some heavies without ammo. Maybe they can kill him if they take ride but therefor they must be in a assault suit and get to the tank without being killed. I think its far easier to take down a surya than a sagaris. If you fight armor tanks you wait until their repairer is reloading and then you attack. To beat a sagaris you have to kill it very fast after their booster started reloading due to their passive repairing and the lower reload time of the shield booster. So this can have an effect too. Thanks for your feedback. You all get a +1.
Carilito Algintal Core Gallente Federation 345	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:48:00 - [28] - Quote Pezz IsDank wrote: Pent'noir wrote: Proto swarms 250dmg per missle for 6 missles, giving 1500 dmg per swarm launch. You have 4 rounds per clip and holdling a max of 6 in storage, for a total of 10 swarm launches. It will take about 3-5 seconds to aquire a lock per swarm launch, with an extra 4.5 seconds for reload every 4 launches. I have no idea what the ehp of a good tank is, but lets just say it is 18k ehp. Given a squad of 4 ppl, all with proto swarms. 1500dmg x4 = 6k per launch. 6k x 3 launches =18k It would take between 9-15 seconds to do three launches. Probably take 4 launches to account for the tank reps... (although, unless in a bad spot, the tank probably found cover by then) What if they were all suicide fitted with wiyrkomi av grenades (assuming 196dmg is a typo and it is really 1960 dmg per grenade) 1960 x 3 grenades = 5880 dmg 5880 dmg x 3 ppl per lav = 17640 dmg Then plus what ever swarms they could get off. It would appear both methods have merit, unless I'm off on my estimate of the tanks ehp. This could happen in corp matches when ppl are organized, but rarely in the public matches. Almost the only hope for a public match is to have a majority of your team switch to av or someone calls in their own tank. Don't forget to take into account the damage resistance amplifiers that I believe every well fit marauder tank has. I had 2x 25% ones on mine and DCU, giving me around 55-60% damage reduction IIRC. The math is right Dmg/investment wise but to actually do it in practice is a 100k+ loss every time for the AV squad due to one or two of the anti av is gonna die. No losses on the HAV squad except for EHP. Honestly reduce the price by X3 for infantry gear to account for infantry loses and HAVs/AV will be more equal due to the reduced investment of AV supplies Vs the endurance of the HAV
Pezz IsDank Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 171	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:53:00 - [29] - Quote Carilito wrote: Pezz IsDank wrote: Pent'noir wrote: Proto swarms 250dmg per missle for 6 missles, giving 1500 dmg per swarm launch. You have 4 rounds per clip and holdling a max of 6 in storage, for a total of 10 swarm launches. It will take about 3-5 seconds to aquire a lock per swarm launch, with an extra 4.5 seconds for reload every 4 launches. I have no idea what the ehp of a good tank is, but lets just say it is 18k ehp. Given a squad of 4 ppl, all with proto swarms. 1500dmg x4 = 6k per launch. 6k x 3 launches =18k It would take between 9-15 seconds to do three launches. Probably take 4 launches to account for the tank reps... (although, unless in a bad spot, the tank probably found cover by then) What if they were all suicide fitted with wiyrkomi av grenades (assuming 196dmg is a typo and it is really 1960 dmg per grenade) 1960 x 3 grenades = 5880 dmg 5880 dmg x 3 ppl per lav = 17640 dmg Then plus what ever swarms they could get off. It would appear both methods have merit, unless I'm off on my estimate of the tanks ehp. This could happen in corp matches when ppl are organized, but rarely in the public matches. Almost the only hope for a public match is to have a majority of your team switch to av or someone calls in their own tank. Don't forget to take into account the damage resistance amplifiers that I believe every well fit marauder tank has. I had 2x 25% ones on mine and DCU, giving me around 55-60% damage reduction IIRC. The math is right Dmg/investment wise but to actually do it in practice is a 100k+ loss every time for the AV squad due to one or two of the anti av is gonna die. No losses on the HAV squad except for EHP. Honestly reduce the price by X3 for infantry gear to account for infantry loses and HAVs/AV will be more equal due to the reduced investment of AV supplies Vs the endurance of the HAV Lol I was about to mention that too. Doesn't the proto SL alone cost 110k? I think I recall someone posting that before, haven't checked it myself though. I haven't played this beta a whole hell of a lot and right now I could only afford to buy 2 of those, and my best suit unlocked is a type II so very, very squishy to missile launcher tanks.. prob die in one volley pretty easily, very costly counter. I agree with the reduced cost. It's the thing that's making me think twice about training into AV first. Gotta say, loving the free LAV spam, getting a lot of free double kills off of them with the militia SL.
Pezz IsDank Pink Fluffy Bounty Hunterz RISE of LEGION 171	Posted - 2012.09.01 16:57:00 - [30] - Quote Pent'noir wrote: All of that should be accounted for in the Effective HP and I thought those things get a stacking penalty. Something like if you have one, then the second only gets half of its stats. However, if someone can estimate their ehp on their tank and show me how they came up with it, then I'm be really happy to see it. All I know is what some ppl have thrown out there for some numbers with nothing to back it up. Ah IC, I didn't expect damage reduction to be considered in for EHP... to me it seems like something that would be mentioned along with EHP because it really depends on what hits the tank I would think. I do remember that damage reduction was put together with EHP though, so I guess you'd be right. Pretty sure the stacking penalty is the same as it is in EVE: http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Stacking_penalty 1 100% 2 87% 3 57% 4 28% 5 10.5% 6 3% So with only 2 25% damage reduction amplifiers you can still get quite a bit of a nice boost in defense. I didn't like the drop from 2nd to 3rd though so I did DCU instead, which gave 12.5% to both shield/armor IIRC.. and barely cost anything PG/CPU wise.

Vitriol18 Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 56	Posted - 2012.09.01 17:14:00 - [31] - Quote Another great tank tactic for avoiding swarm missiles, is just to hide behind crates, the stupid missiles hit the crates everytime while the tank can shoot over them, how fun. You have to be pretty unlucky, terribad at fitting to lose a tank now, what with forge range nerf, forge damage nerf, heavy suit hp reduction, swarm damage nerf and av grenade damage nerf. Found a gunloggi in the open dropped a nanohive and threw all my av greanadea at it, it tanked them all, and drove off :( Though also had a rail madra driving up and down that little road on the Biomass map he did this for about half the match , then he got grenaded to death because we all ambushed hm and he had no where to run. We just have to pray that all tank drivers do stupid thing like in the second example, in tight spaces they die, out in the open they just run and lol.


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