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Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.08.26 20:43:00 - [1] - Quote After trying most of the snipers in the most recent build, here are my thoughts on what works and what could be changed to make the scout sniper role more effective in DUST. As I mentioned in the first thread I made on this topic, my concern is that snipers in DUST have a role to play and a good sniper has the tools he needs to make a difference on the battlefield. First I want to thank CCP for removing scope sway in between shots for snipers. This simple change was something that I suggested in my original thread, and it made sniping significantly more effective in this build and made the Tactical Sniper and its variants very formidable. My first complaint is hit detection, it has been said before and I repeat it here because it is so relevant to snipers. Even a good sniper cannot be effective while he has to guess where to aim his shots on a moving target. I have faith that CCP recognizes this issue and will fix it as soon as possible. Secondly, I believe that there is not enough variety in the sniper class as far as weapon choices go. All of the snipers support a similar gameplay style: sitting from medium to long range and picking off people while trying to keep eyes on objectives and teammates. This is great and I love that snipers in this game can be effective from a distance; however, I would like to see snipers put into the game that cater to a more aggressive style of play. For instance, a rifle that has a good rate of fire, a less powerful scope (ie less zoom), and a larger magazine size. The damage on such a rifle should be lower than the other rifles but enough that headshots are still OHK on most suits at medium range. Another aspect that I would love to see implemented is bonuses to the specs of each rifle and dropsuits. This has already been suggested here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33330&find=unread. We already have seen a form of this in the logistics suits getting a bonus to hacking speed. Adding bonuses and drawbacks to all suits and some guns would allow for more diverse and specialized classes. This is not specifically relevant to snipers but I think it is a good idea and would allow more gameplay styles for scouts in particular. Finally, I would love to see the anti material rifle become available without having to pay Aurum. This rifle is a great idea but I worry that people are not testing it as much due to the fact that it is an Aurum item. Also, it can hardly be considered a 'sidegrade' considering it is a completely unique weapon. At least a variant of it should be available for everyone. Currently I am happy with the sniper classes as far as actual mechanics are concerned. Proof of this is the notable increase in snipers in this build. I believe that sniping is currently well balanced. Good snipers are adequately rewarded and bad snipers will not be much threat to anyone. This is how it should be imo, although a point bonus to headshots would be nice. As always all constructive feedback and criticism is welcome. Thanks. EDIT I have been told that the Ishukone Rifle is the same as the AUR AM rifle. Also, hitboxes of installations need to be fixed so that they are not so big and prevent shots from hitting infantry who are standing next to them.
Alshadow Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 71	Posted - 2012.08.26 20:49:00 - [2] - Quote +1
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.26 21:32:00 - [3] - Quote Eternal Technique wrote: Secondly, I believe that there is not enough variety in the sniper class as far as weapon choices go. All of the snipers support a similar gameplay style: sitting from medium to long range and picking off people while trying to keep eyes on objectives and teammates. This is great and I love that snipers in this game can be effective from a distance; however, I would like to see snipers put into the game that cater to a more aggressive style of play. For instance, a rifle that has a good rate of fire, a less powerful scope (ie less zoom), and a larger magazine size. The damage on such a rifle should be lower than the other rifles but enough that headshots are still OHK on most suits at medium range. There's an assault rifle that fills those role already, I think. The tactical variant. Higher fidelity zoom and such. Either way a medium-range weapon like that should be an assault rifle. The sniper weapons are already pretty much covered in this department, with their large magazines (5 shots) and a scope that isn't so zoomed in you can't easily kill people at medium ranges with one or two quick shots. Quote: Another aspect that I would love to see implemented is bonuses to the specs of each rifle and dropsuits. This has already been suggested here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=33330&find=unread. We already have seen a form of this in the logistics suits getting a bonus to hacking speed. Adding bonuses and drawbacks to all suits and some guns would allow for more diverse and specialized classes. This is not specifically relevant to snipers but I think it is a good idea and would allow more gameplay styles for scouts in particular. I guess. They already do have particular bonuses that matter to snipers in different ways. Some people snipe with heavy suits, some with scout suits, some with assault and logistics. I don't really feel there's only one correct suit for sniping. Bonuses would be alright I suppose, but would this only be for snipers? Why not for other weapons, then? Quote: Finally, I would love to see the anti material rifle become available without having to pay Aurum. This rifle is a great idea but I worry that people are not testing it as much due to the fact that it is an Aurum item. Also, it can hardly be considered a 'sidegrade' considering it is a completely unique weapon. At least a variant of it should be available for everyone. I'm wondering how this'd be different from forge guns. Just lower damage and longer range or something? The idea of someone hiding in the hills with a nanohive, shooting up vehicles from across the map, sounds like it could be a very annoying thing to have to deal with. Quote: I believe that sniping is currently well balanced. Good snipers are adequately rewarded and bad snipers will not be much threat to anyone. This is how it should be imo, although a point bonus to headshots would be nice. I find snipers overpowered and would like to see their damage reduced, tracers added to their shots to reveal their location, and permanent sway added even when crouched and zoomed in.
Mavado V Noriega SyNergy Gaming 2283	Posted - 2012.08.26 21:37:00 - [4] - Quote AM rifle in the game deals with LAVs not HAVs according to description so no it wont be rippin tanks and its different than a forge gun
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.26 22:01:00 - [5] - Quote The description is just fluff text. I looked at its stats and it seems to be the same as the other rifles. I've never seen anyone use it to kill a vehicle with.
Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.08.26 23:45:00 - [6] - Quote Thanks for the feedback Fivetimes Infinity. I do not think that the tactical assault rifle is an acceptable substitute for a closer range sniper. The Tactical AR suffers from the fact that it is still an assault rifle and has the same range as all the other assault rifles. This means it does NO damage out past around 200 meters or so. For a scout suit to get close enough to use one would be suicide (once hit detection is fixed). It also does not do anywhere near the damage necessary to make it effective as a medium range sniper. As far as the other variant of sniper rifles are concerned, the difference in scope zoom is almost negligible and I honestly have a hard time telling the difference between the standard and tactical snipers in this matter. The Standard variant also has significantly higher recoil. While it might be a better option for medium or even close range fights, it is still far from ideal and no one would really consider using it in this manner. Also when I mentioned bonuses to snipers and suits I was suggesting that every suit and gun be given bonuses. There is no reason why it would be exclusive to snipers. Sniper rifles do not need to be nerfed. As it is they are OHK to the head on anything other than a scout suit (only exception is the charged sniper). This is how it should be. A well fitted assault suit can also take 3 shots to drop. Tracers would be fine with me. Having permanent scope sway while crouched is a terrible idea. Might as well not put snipers in the game if that is how it worked.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.27 01:49:00 - [7] - Quote 200 m is actually a fairly long range for Dust. Do assault rifles not do damage at that range? Well, I haven't used anything but the militia and breach ARs much, but certainly the high-fidelity, low RoF AR should be able to fill the battle rifle niche. Even still, I find regular sniper rifles are quite effective at close ranges. I guess overall I remain fairly skeptical there is a niche here that needs filling, and am certainly very wary about buffing snipers even more. To be honest I haven't even bothered with the tactical sniper rifles. I don't understand why anything but the charge rifle even exists until you get to the Ishukone prototype sniper rifle. Even then, though. So I can't comment on the sniper rifle variants beyond militia and the charge rifle. That's fine about the suit bonus thing. It'd be a bit complicated and hard to balance as there are a whole lot of suit/gun combinations, but it's a fine goal in itself. Making sniping take skill to do very well wouldn't remove the place for sniping in the game. I think placing more risk and higher demands for player ability on the sniper role would really only be a benefit. Separate the wheat from the chaff, as it were. The no-talent snipers would abandon the role, the mean motor scooters would adapt and kill, but just kill less. Planetside 1 had weak sniping, and yet there was never a shortage of snipers. Only, in Planetside 1 a couple snipers couldn't totally shut down an area of the map.
Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.08.27 19:17:00 - [8] - Quote I agree with you that sniping should take skill and should be challenging. Right now I think sniping is pretty balanced, I have seen good snipers do quite well and have also seen bad snipers not being much use to anyone. I believe the damage is fine on these weapons at the moment considering even prototype snipers require a headshot to OHK standard and militia suits. The best counter to a sniper is having one on your team to take them out before they can get set up. When I talk about new variations of snipers, I am not looking for a buff, rather I am looking for a different type of sniper that would allow more gameplay styles. People seem to be annoyed by all the snipers sitting on hills far away from objectives, so I suggested a rifle that would allow an alternate playstyle. The tactical sniper rifle is good because it can put 3 shots downrange extremely fast. If we are talking about a heavy, he will likely be dead before he has a chance to react and find cover. It is a good rifle especially for covering teammates who are in gunfights as one shot from it will drop the enemies shields and give your teammate a huge advantage. The tactical AR is also a great battle rifle like you said, I just dont see it being effective as a sniper and I would never try to use it with a scout suit. Also I like the idea of bullet trails the more I think about it. It would definitely discourage snipers from sitting in one spot.
4447 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 650	Posted - 2012.08.27 19:42:00 - [9] - Quote need a variable scope if you ask me..
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.27 20:33:00 - [10] - Quote Sniping is probably the least skill-intensive way to play Dust right now, and yet it's easily the best way to play on a sheer KDR/ISK basis. It baffles me when people suggest it's either fine as-is or needs a buff. Variations for sniping isn't bad in itself, but I think until sniping is brought in-line with other playstyles, expanding upon the role should probably be the last thing on anyone's mind. I'd also really, really hesitate to ever make sniping a viable mid-range playstyle through a shorter range/less zoom/etc rifle. Being a sniper really should not predispose you toward being suitable for combat at any range anymore than assault rifles should provide you with sniper-like weapons. Sniping is about long-range killing. I don't see the value in also making it good for short range killing (anymore than it already is).

Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.08.27 21:13:00 - [11] - Quote Sniping is hardly the least skill intensive way to play at the moment. Snipers are free kills to anyone who gets close to them. Charged sniper rifle is easy mode I will admit and probably could use a nerf, althought I never used this gun since the first build. If you leave a capable enemy sniper alone all game and no one tries to take him out he is going to mess up your team pretty bad. Just like if you leave a tank or heavy alone for a game they will do the same. But if you rush them, sneak up on them, or even have a good sniper on your team, you can mitigate the damage they can do. This is how it should be. Right now most people are still running standard and militia suits. The more advanced snipers do heavy damage to these suits; however once people start getting better suits with more tank I think people will realize that the sniper damage is not overpowered (charge sniper might be the exception).
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.27 21:27:00 - [12] - Quote Getting close to the sniper can mean going all the way across the map, through an enemy spawn point, and across rough terrain. All the while you are going to be exposing yourself to the sniper in question, as well as other enemy players. A few days ago my first four games as a sniper were: 20-0, 20-1, 29-0, and 32-0. The only reason I died was because I got stuck on terrain and had to suicide. Only a couple of times was I ever even in danger. Enemy snipers, people trying to reach me, they're meat. They're nothing. You put yourself in a good position and there isn't anyone who can touch you for game after game. Also, comparing snipers to tanks is not really appropriate. A tank that is worth a damn is a big investment. Over a million ISK. Losing a tank is a big deal. Conversely, dying as a sniper? Handful of ISK in the toilet. Meanwhile, in a single game you could easily cost the enemy team many hundreds of thousands if not millions of ISK in losses. Honestly now, no sympathy here. Make a new character, do nothing but sniping, and join the rest of us at the top of the KD leaderboard.
Asai Marcel 4	Posted - 2012.08.28 00:27:00 - [13] - Quote It took me a while to get used to these snipers compared to other Fps. It is difficult thought to shoot moving targets, with experience I have shot a few moving. Odly though its usualy snipers who are running for cover, and they have the best radius as far as I can tell, so Idk why i can hit them better than close one's (Variable scope would be nice) I do find it very hard to see my targets, most of the time I'm shooting for the \/ Red objects, until I see my reticul turn red and than I fire, but rarely do I ever see the target. Following isnt much of an issue, but the controls are way too sensitve, I have been thinking of buying a mouse an keyboard cuase it drives me insane. It seemed fine in the previous patch, but now its just. Idk. I see why its upseting people. When shooting targets fr away, I need to move my controller by tapping it until I land on the red marker. Which is not easy at all to do. maybe for some, but my eyes hurt waiting until I see the white turn red. (maybe a better Reticle would be nice) I've used the Charge Sniper, I found it alright to shoot targets far away that are stationary (other snipers) and it does do allot of dmg. but it takes time to charge. As for close range, I guess I like the idea. If anyone has played MAG, I prefer using a basic rifle with a 4x scope with a silencer. It was nice, but I wouldn't see much use as of now for that as we have assault rifles with a decent scope attached. I don't think snipers need a buff, and they should require skill. I would like to see a better reticle as it strains my eyes, and have the controller to be less sensitive.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.28 01:04:00 - [14] - Quote If you ever want to get serious about sniping you'll need a keyboard/mouse. You will never be competitive as a sniper without the precision of a mouse.
Song Soulfire Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2012.08.28 02:06:00 - [15] - Quote I started using mouse, but in the end its not really needed :P just posting to say that with only lv3 Sniper Rifle Ops., lv3 weaponry-the Charge Rifle will take out most non-heavies in one body hit. After finding an Assault suit player (in the double digits for KDR) that i was only able to get down to 10% armor, I am again investing points in Sniper Rifle Ops and WEaponry :)... I've also taken to slotting a Light Damage Mod into my suits :) I don't think the Sniper is OP.. my sniper.(this guy posting) is more of an alt these days, my one day Logi (born heavy for the armor skills) and my straight up AR Assault guy are more entertaining. Sniping as it is, is more about paranoia then KPM, if you can maintain stealth-no red chevron over head-then life as a sniper is easy, otherwise theres lots of moving about, trying to find that other sniper/s or losing that angry AR/SMG guy trying to "make you pay!!!!!" playing sniper once in a while makes avoiding them soo much easier :D and it is a relaxed style of play...slow moving means less red mark of doom over your head..... all this...:::... imho :)
Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.08.31 02:15:00 - [16] - Quote Fivetimes Infinity wrote: If you ever want to get serious about sniping you'll need a keyboard/mouse. You will never be competitive as a sniper without the precision of a mouse. This is a lie. Also most of the people on the top of the kd leaderboards are tank drivers.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.08.31 03:33:00 - [17] - Quote Eternal Technique wrote: This is a lie. Also most of the people on the top of the kd leaderboards are tank drivers. It is objectively true, as you will never be able to achieve the same kind of rapid precision with a thumbstick as you can with a mouse. Incidentally I am very puzzled that more snipers are not at the top of the leaderboard. I'm hardly a really good player (my KDR as infantry was 2.66 before I switched to sniper) and yet, yeah, the top KDR are almost entirely tank drivers, with a couple scout shotgun assholes, and... just me? How many of the top players are actually snipers?
Eternal Technique Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 281	Posted - 2012.09.02 20:34:00 - [18] - Quote kb/m might have a slight advantage over controllers but to say that you can't be competitive without one is going a little too far imo.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.09.02 21:45:00 - [19] - Quote Well, that might be true. I've thought about the DS3 stuff a bit and, truth be told, I'm not a console FPS player. I avoid console FPS games, generally speaking. So maybe I am just bad at shooting with a DS3. Maybe there are DS3 users comparable to mouse users. I don't know. So after having played a lot of corp battles where everyone is wearing their Sunday best, I'd say that the charge rifle maybe should simply be moved to prototype (with cost/CPU/PG upped to compensate), and just adding a tracer might be enough. When most people take two hits to kill, even with fairly good gear myself as a sniper, I would say the charge rifle maybe does okay damage as-is.
Nazkim Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 5	Posted - 2012.09.02 22:41:00 - [20] - Quote If they plan on keeping base shield and armor hp from militia to proto the same, sniper rifle damage should probably be looked at. Personally I believe one shot kills that are not a headshot should be something you actually have to work to achieve. I don't think lvl 3 sniper operation earns you that right against assault suits. Against scout suits, OHK are fine and should be expected. And if you are honestly having a lot of trouble with snipers, you should go to your local chat and try and pick up one for your squad. There is nothing more exciting while sniping ( for me at least) then hearing that sniper bullet hit the ground close to me only to go into a game of 1v1 at long range with another sniper. It's our job on the field. It IS a fun way to play. And if you keep on getting sniped from the same guy on the mountain all match and your sniper is sitting in the back of the map lolcrouched getting his kd up, fire him and get somebody that wants to actually play the game and be useful to his team. And if you just hate snipers because they snipe, I don't know what to say. They are in the game. A lot of players enjoy it. As for the more aggressive sniper, that will never happen unless you are a prodigy with the sticks. The initial sway when you scope in or move is just way to debilitating to be effective against any decent ARs within their range(for me at least.) I personally feel its better that way. Stepping down into that danger zone should be a challenge for an experienced and well SP'd sniper. I really, really, really don't want some brand new militia player running around trying to quickscope me. Again, that is just my personal preference.

Azmode Deamus Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 28	Posted - 2012.09.02 22:54:00 - [21] - Quote I think the tactical sniper rifle needs a magazine increase from 3 to 5 bullets like every other damn sniper rifle in the game. I mean seriously? Why does it only have three? Very few enemies stay in the same spot before I can get an other shot off. So yes. Maybe tone down the damage just a tad bit, and add a greater magazine capacity for the tactical and I'll be happy. This would give the sniper rifle skill tree a more "aggressive" weapon while allowing one to engage at long distances as needed. Just like the tactical assault rifle is a semi-sniper rifle in the skin of an assault rifle - the sniper tree should have the opposite. Secondly, I feel that it would be cool if they added some type of lead for targets. I do not care for muzzle drop - but if I'm engaging at long distances I should at least have to lead a bit. Maybe even give a "lead indicator" module or include it by default in scout suits. As it is now I feel I've made a huge mistake by not going the Assault or Logistic route. The "Balisitic Targetting CPU" would show a circle that basically tells you where to aim to lead and hit a target inside the scope. Sort of like the Dues Ex Crossbow mod (which was awesome when it worked!). Of course there would be a delay before the "CPU" even showed up so people who are good could still get a shot off quicker than others who aren't as great at leading.
Fivetimes Infinity Immobile Infantry 1086	Posted - 2012.09.02 23:30:00 - [22] - Quote Nazkim wrote: If they plan on keeping base shield and armor hp from militia to proto the same, sniper rifle damage should probably be looked at. Personally I believe one shot kills that are not a headshot should be something you actually have to work to achieve. I don't think lvl 3 sniper operation earns you that right against assault suits. Against scout suits, OHK are fine and should be expected. Well at the very least the charged sniper rifle, the best sniper rifle in the game, shouldn't be standard tier and cost 6.5k. The other sniper rifles often take two shots to kill people. Charge sniper rifle in real games is still pretty good, but obviously you wound more people than normal. Plus, if the charged rifle took more CPU/PG, you'd be able to fit worse LWUs. Quote: And if you are honestly having a lot of trouble with snipers, you should go to your local chat and try and pick up one for your squad. There is nothing more exciting while sniping ( for me at least) then hearing that sniper bullet hit the ground close to me only to go into a game of 1v1 at long range with another sniper. It's our job on the field. It IS a fun way to play. Nobody in this thread has expressed difficulty in dealing with enemy snipers. Maybe you misunderstood my posts? I'm a sniper player. I have a fair number of kills as a sniper (~1000) and I guess I'm one of the higher KDR-rated snipers. But unlike the scout suit users in those threads, I don't like to pretend as if the reason I do so well as a sniper is because I'm just so good. Rather, I accept that the method of play I've chosen is very easy, safe, and powerful. Quote: As for the more aggressive sniper, that will never happen unless you are a prodigy with the sticks. The initial sway when you scope in or move is just way to debilitating to be effective against any decent ARs within their range(for me at least.) I personally feel its better that way. Stepping down into that danger zone should be a challenge for an experienced and well SP'd sniper. I really, really, really don't want some brand new militia player running around trying to quickscope me. Again, that is just my personal preference. I don't find killing people even <100 m away to be very challenging. One thing that comes in handy is that, at that range, the target is so big that the scope sway doesn't matter so much. You can stand up and shot pretty reliably. Or, if you're not being actively shot, crouching, taking one shot, and moving works well. Either way I find being an aggressive sniper is a playstyle already supported by the game.


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