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Gridboss
BetaMax.
185
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Posted - 2012.08.26 17:27:00 -
[1] - Quote
In EVE, there are a lot of skills. You may think that we have a lot now in DUST, but it's really nothing compared to EVE. Nearly every single skill in EVE shares one trait - training a level in a skill will give a bonus, even if the equipment being used is exactly the same. While many skills in DUST share this trait, there are a sizable number of core skills that do not. The skills I'm referring to are the dropsuit and vehicle skills.
Here's an example of it in action. In EVE, you need skills to fly ships. A frigate, requires racial (Caldari,/Amarr/Minmatar/Gallente) frigate to a certain level. Training the racial frigate skill doesn't actually give a bonus on the skill. Instead, the frigates have a bonus on the hull that increases as the racial frigate skill increases. For example, the Atron (A Gallente Frigate) gets +5% to small hybrid turret damage and +10% to small hybrid turret falloff per level of Gallente Frigate.
So how would this apply to DUST? Simple. You put it on the dropsuits and the vehicle hulls. An example would be an Amarrian Heavy dropsuit that give 3% bonus to armour resistances per level of Amarr Heavy Dropsuit. Or -3% heat build up per level. Or whatever.
So why would we have these? Two reasons. The first is that it gives every skill a reason to be trained, even if you don't upgrade the gear. This is especially important with dropsuits and vehicles as it helps players to maintain ISK efficiency by using lower tier items, but still allows them to invest skillpoints to enhance their specialisations. This also doesn't obsolete the higher end items, as they still have added benefits (PG, CPU, Base Armour/Shields, more slots) that make them appealing.
Second is to help give suggested roles to certain items, and reinforce the specialist abilities of the individual suits/vehicles. heavy suits are built to be able to handle HMGs and Forge guns, yet we still see them with shotguns, assault rifles and sniper rifles. The logistics suit is meant to be the designated logistics platform, but generally, a scout or assault suit can use a remote rep, nanohive or drop uplink just as effectively. It isn't a bad thing that suits can do things outside of their designated roles. It's just that the suit that is designed to do that role should have a bit more of a leg up in that department.
Thoughts?
(Also, [STAR]CharginMoose helped with the idea, but I thought of it months ago. Just don't tell him I said that ) |
Sectum Lightyear
Dark-Rising
26
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Posted - 2012.08.26 17:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
< Insert sarcastic comment about invalid fit bugs making this a moot point here >
/agree; probably not going to train up any SP in suits until I've got all the rest done; the SP input to it is too big, and the isk-cost of the suits too high compared to the benefits of training that SP into support skills or other things; most of us aren't using advanced/proto suits because the cost is too high compared to isk rewards. |
Noc Tempre
Imperfects Negative-Feedback
1170
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Posted - 2012.08.26 18:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
You really need to ignore me less on IRC I've been drafting up an official proposal for a while now that incorporates this design goal for over a month, and has a lot of low level detail like this as well as high level detail such as ISK economy and mircotransaction balance. |
Tim Maroth
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.08.26 18:10:00 -
[4] - Quote
So yes, Grideris (Gridboss) and I ([STAR]CharginMoose) were talking about this.
I agree entirely with his post even though he beat me to the forums with the idea. The Dropsuit skills offer very little incentive to train them especially at an 8x multiplier.
Dropsuits and Vehicles would benefit largely by having a system similar to EVEs ship skill bonuses. This also opens the room for people to specialize a little more. It also gives options for more suit combination types.
Possible skill bonuses.
Assault (Caldari) more shield per level, more damage to assault rifles, or sticking true to Caldari nature to optimal range of light weapons, 5% shield resistance per level,
Heavy (Amarr, bullet sponge!) more armor per level, armor resistance, Heat dissipation for HMG, maybe a damage bonus, increase to mobility or the turn speed of the character (AKA Tracking), more stamina or a reduction in stamina use when running, armor repair amount.
Logi (Minmatar... I think this should have been Gallente) Remote Rep amount, Remote rep range, Armor Resistance, a bonus to nanohives, bonus to side arms maybe, defensive bonuses.
Scout (Gallente) Move speed bonus to help them get in position better and faster, sniper rifle damage, sway and/or recoil reduction, Ammo Clip size bonus, tracking bonus ( character turn speed )
The above is just suggestion of things that could make things more interesting, and of course different suits could have different bonuses. For example, maybe one scout suit will lend itself better for use of the shotgun, and the other will be better for sniping with. Logi suits might be a super repper, or maybe it goes for a balance for higher survivability. The possibilities of adding these skill options to the suits really open the game play to a more true EVE style of game play. It also gives the suit skills new meaning and purpose. |
Shiro Mokuzan
220
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Posted - 2012.08.26 18:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Well, for dropsuit classes, I'm guessing different ones will have bonuses at certain points and those will be tied to the skill. That's how EVE works.
ie: an Amarr heavy dropsuit could get a +5% bonus to armor repair per level of Amarr Heavy Dropsuits. I'm hoping eventually there will be all classes of dropsuit and vehicle available for all races, ie: Minmatar assault suits and Amarr logistics suits.
In EVE, different ships get bonuses to different weapon types also. There could be different types of E-war and different scout suits could get bonuses to different kinds.
Caldari logistics suits would probably get a bonus to shield transport, whereas Amarr and Gallente suits would get a bonus to remote armor repair.
The possibilities are endless.
I agree, though, I don't like to see skills that just unlock new gear and nothing else. |
Michael P Jagger
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
6
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Posted - 2012.08.26 18:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Agree, Like and you guys that have thought this through why not post here to give the Dev's One-Click-Shopping? It seems really likely they have this in mind anyway -- maybe you can lobby for the best traits to enhance. |
Mavado V Noriega
SyNergy Gaming
2283
|
Posted - 2012.08.26 19:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gridboss wrote:In EVE, there are a lot of skills. You may think that we have a lot now in DUST, but it's really nothing compared to EVE. Nearly every single skill in EVE shares one trait - training a level in a skill will give a bonus, even if the equipment being used is exactly the same. While many skills in DUST share this trait, there are a sizable number of core skills that do not. The skills I'm referring to are the dropsuit and vehicle skills. Here's an example of it in action. In EVE, you need skills to fly ships. A frigate, requires racial (Caldari,/Amarr/Minmatar/Gallente) frigate to a certain level. Training the racial frigate skill doesn't actually give a bonus on the skill. Instead, the frigates have a bonus on the hull that increases as the racial frigate skill increases. For example, the Atron (A Gallente Frigate) gets +5% to small hybrid turret damage and +10% to small hybrid turret falloff per level of Gallente Frigate. So how would this apply to DUST? Simple. You put it on the dropsuits and the vehicle hulls. An example would be an Amarrian Heavy dropsuit that give 3% bonus to armour resistances per level of Amarr Heavy Dropsuit. Or -3% heat build up per level. Or whatever. So why would we have these? Two reasons. The first is that it gives every skill a reason to be trained, even if you don't upgrade the gear. This is especially important with dropsuits and vehicles as it helps players to maintain ISK efficiency by using lower tier items, but still allows them to invest skillpoints to enhance their specialisations. This also doesn't obsolete the higher end items, as they still have added benefits (PG, CPU, Base Armour/Shields, more slots) that make them appealing. Second is to help give suggested roles to certain items, and reinforce the specialist abilities of the individual suits/vehicles. heavy suits are built to be able to handle HMGs and Forge guns, yet we still see them with shotguns, assault rifles and sniper rifles. The logistics suit is meant to be the designated logistics platform, but generally, a scout or assault suit can use a remote rep, nanohive or drop uplink just as effectively. It isn't a bad thing that suits can do things outside of their designated roles. It's just that the suit that is designed to do that role should have a bit more of a leg up in that department. Thoughts? (Also, [STAR]CharginMoose helped with the idea, but I thought of it months ago. Just don't tell him I said that )
+1 but we dont need any of the skills for dropsuit and vehicles and such adding to dmg imo damage is fine where its at like the other passive stuff tho like armor resistances to heavy making them more specialised good idea for heavy and logistics scout would have what? less scope sway? higher sensor radius? what about assault cant leave the frontline grunts out..... less recoil on ARs? |
Gridboss
BetaMax.
185
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 12:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
/bump
Also, while it would be great to have this for the dropsuits, I think the vehicles would benefit from this more. While you need the skills to use a dropsuit, you only need the vehicle skills to call in the vehicle. This would help give an edge to those dedicated tank pilots going up against anyone that's just using a borrowed tank.
Also, I've noticed that the vehicle turret skills don't have any bonuses on them. While I don't think they need the bonus to exist on the gun itself (though this isn't to say it's not an option), I think they should have something more than just unlocking more guns. Right now there is no reason to train the Turret proficiency skills to V. |
Aardwolf Pneumatic
SyNergy Gaming
18
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 12:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
+1
I think an additional incentive to dropsuit skills would be great! And vehicles. There's no harm in adding more bonus effects. |
Badly Owned
xOne Man Armyx
49
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 12:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
I think the bonus should go to anything but weapons, it a great idea I mentioned it in the previous build, on cell so not bothering to link post. Main reason I would stay away from weapons increase of any type is so that you can be that heavy with a sniper rifle if you want. That way you don't feel you have to play a certain weapons just to get the increase. But I wouldn't mind going yea I am caldari I should train in shield stuff to take advantage of the bonus a caldari dropsuit offers.
My 2 cents.
oh previous thread link here postabout the same topic |
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Constable Jones
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 12:57:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'm currently running on the assumption that this is already planned. But that's because to me it seems so obviously the thing to do I just can't picture it not happening.
Especially with rank 3 just being a dead level atm. |
DUST Fiend
Immobile Infantry
1904
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 13:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
I really hope they introduce this in, I'm just hoping they didn't think it was as necessary for us to test and just left it out for the time being.
Please don't dumb down this game, more skills, more bonuses, more effects, MOAR STUFFS!!! |
Templar Two
Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation
459
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 13:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
We some time ago asked that only pilots could use/drive/pilot vehicles: that would have made a true difference and add meaning to your choices...of course it din't happen. |
Tim Maroth
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.27 16:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
FNG (From IRC) and I were chatting about this a little more in detail last night, we came to a a semi agreement that the skills on suts would have to be very closely watched to see how it changed and effected game play for low SP people VS high SP people as this could potentially make game play for newer players a little less fun. We agreed that suits could have role bonuses that help do various activities. FNG mentioned to myself that the logistic suit in previous builds was under used, and that in this current build it has a bonus to hacking.
Now then that hacking bonus would make more sense on something like a scout to me.
But this idea of have roll bonuses on suits seemed like a decent idea as well. Of course it doesn't change the fact that training the suit skill is still slightly meaningless. |
Tim Maroth
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.29 21:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Bumping this awesome topic back up. |
Demonic Chaos
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 16:02:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'd say logi suit would be better to have a bonus that affects logi IE repair more nanohives fill ammo faster injecters give more armor/shield etc but yeah all skills should give some bonus even if only 1% more widgets/lvl or whatever |
Dane Stark
Golgotha Group
178
|
Posted - 2012.08.30 16:31:00 -
[17] - Quote
Badly Owned wrote:I think the bonus should go to anything but weapons, it a great idea I mentioned it in the previous build, on cell so not bothering to link post. Main reason I would stay away from weapons increase of any type is so that you can be that heavy with a sniper rifle if you want. That way you don't feel you have to play a certain weapons just to get the increase. But I wouldn't mind going yea I am caldari I should train in shield stuff to take advantage of the bonus a caldari dropsuit offers. My 2 cents. oh previous thread link here postabout the same topic
additional PG/CPU bonus for that kinda SP would be nice second for me would be Shield bumps or Armor bumps (repair rates or buffs) stamina bumps would be good too so you could get increases not using modules
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Gridboss
BetaMax.
185
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 09:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
/bump for great justice
What the actual bonuses themselves should be is not the important part of this thread. The idea is more that there should always be a benefit to training a skill other than unlocking items.
Some of the other skills that I've noticed that have this problem (that aren't dropsuit or vehicle hull related) are:
Turret skills (all of them) - this includes Turret Operation and Turret Upgrades Drop Uplink Deployment Nanocircuirty Remote Repair Systems Grenadier Demolitions (only unlocks 1 item at level 1 - the rest of the levels do nothing at all!) Mobility Shield Emission Systems Acceleration Control (and this doesn't even have modules available yet) Piloting Vehicle Command |
carl von oppenheimer
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
158
|
Posted - 2012.08.31 11:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Problem with balance in dust vs EvE is that in EvE your ship has only a limited amount weapon hard points making it easier to balance stats like 10% dmg per lvl when you have only 2 guns in your ship.
In dust you only have one gun hence balancing different suits becomes more difficult, though we could put defensive bonuses for proto suits and damage bonuses for noob suits or a mix of both. What we do need for balance is to make sure that a high damage gun cannot be fitted with high resists or buffer which is why the system is so balanced in EvE where fitting requirements and slot layouts dictate what should be fitted to which ship.
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