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Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.25 08:10:00 - [1] - Quote Edit: TL:DR? amirite? As much fun as it would be, it will not happen. It will not happen for various reasons, some of which have been voiced, some of which may or may not have been voiced. Not all reasons and ideas listed here are my own, and as such they are not necessarily my concern, however they are still valid reasons against this. #1 Boarding a ship in EVE would require one or both of two different defense mechanisms. A) Contract another set of mercs to defend your ship. Issues: A1) As the universe of New Eden is immense, it could take a very, very long time for anyone to come to your aid, and you have absolutely -no- way of defending yourself against an attack from inside your own ship. B) Set up defense tech (ie. lasors, rockets, auto-turrets) inside your ship. Issues: B1) "Oh look an auto turret! Hey Bob, you're a heavy, go tank it while I hack it so it will shoot that rocket launcher!" B2) Having rockets or lasers being fired inside your own ship, would be... rather detrimental to your ship's structure. B3) AI vs Humans, who do you think wins? Unless you make the AI practically god mode/aim bot (anyone played training in Black Ops on the hardest difficulty? LMAO at the kill cams). #2 Boarding ships in EVE, would require creating a map for the entire interior of each ship. Personally, as amazing as CCP is, I don't think they will ever design a map for each Titan, each Dreadnaught, and so on and so forth. Some of the ships in EVE are MASSIVE, they would be much larger than the current maps that we have on the X/Y axis, and they are also much taller on the Z axis, requiring multiple stories. Such an endeavor would require MASSIVE amounts of data storage. #3 Making Dust mercs able to board ships in EVE, would make them FAR to valuable an asset, it would be simply impossible to do anything without having tons of mercs at your disposal. It would create an imbalance between the games, so that Dust would have a dominating effect on EVE, while EVE would have a much less harmful effect on Dust. The games are meant to have equal influence on each other. What I mean is, I don't think a Titan, or even a small frigate, will be able to board your dropsuit. #4 In order to defend against an attack, you may decide to preemptively hire some mercenaries to defend you. Those mercenaries could easily take your contract and receive your payment, only to board your ship and hold it for ransom. Of course, unlike EVE players, they may not be able to pod you; which of course could be untrue, as the interior of the ship would certainly have access to the pod room, all you would have to do is hack the ship so that the pod cannot eject. Another issue would be if you were boarded, prompting you to create a defense contract so some mercs can come save you, only to find out that either A) the defending mercs are actually working with the attacking mercs, and they hold you for ransom anyway; or B) the defending mercs come, kill the attacking mercs, salvage their remains, and hold you for ransom. #5 Hiring mercenaries to attack a ship, would cost significantly more than simply blowing the ship up in most scenarios. Perhaps it would be effective for small frigates or mining ships, but in PvP situations such as pirating or gate blocking, it wouldn't make sense. #6 This would not be viable in fleet fights, if the goal was to capture something on the ship in question. As soon as you boarded your target, their team would target them and melt them immediately, to prevent you from taking whatever valuables you happen to be after. So the match would really never even happen. If we get to board NPC ships for story line missions, cool, I'll take down Sansha from the inside. Fighting AI in PvE makes sense, but having AI as a defense mechanism for PvP encounters would be simply... stupid. It would be more like PvEVE-ship, as the EVE player would really have no effect on the AI defending him, other than which weapons he chose to give it. Edit: Reason #4 is an addition since the original posting, inspired by my response to a post in this thread. Edit: Reason #5 credit goes to Iron Wolf Saber. Edit: Reason #6 credit goes to Iron Wolf Saber.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.25 08:42:00 - [2] - Quote Stations make far more sense than ships do. They are stationary, indestructible, and as far as I am aware, can change hands between corporations.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.25 08:48:00 - [3] - Quote STB Vermaak Doe wrote: Why it may not happen but ccp might like the concept I'm sure that they do like the concept; it's such a fun idea, it would be amazing, but it cannot happen without putting EVE players at the mercy of Dust players. It would come down to mercenaries saying "move us here or we wont defend you" or "give us this or we will kill you" perhaps even "ha, you paid us to board and protect your ship.... bad idea. proceed to list ransom demands".
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.25 09:01:00 - [4] - Quote STB Vermaak Doe wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: STB Vermaak Doe wrote: Why it may not happen but ccp might like the concept I'm sure that they do like the concept; it's such a fun idea, it would be amazing, but it cannot happen without putting EVE players at the mercy of Dust players. It would come down to mercenaries saying "move us here or we wont defend you" or "give us this or we will kill you" perhaps even "ha, you paid us to board and protect your ship.... bad idea. proceed to list ransom demands". And again mercs would be at the mercy of eve players because they need eve players to move them onto a ship by using a ship that can launch pods, then damaging the ship enough where pods are can be launched safely Then tell me, how are mercs going to move between stantions/planets/systems/regions if we have to be lugged around by EVE players? Dust mercs are capable of independent movement.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.25 09:11:00 - [5] - Quote I don't know how movement is going to work, but I'm sure it wont rely on EVE. The games are not suppose to rely on each other, they're supposed to add a strengthening element to each other.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.25 09:28:00 - [6] - Quote Primus Core wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: #3 Making Dust mercs able to board ships in EVE, would make them FAR to valuable an asset, it would be simply impossible to do anything without having tons of mercs at your disposal. It would create an imbalance between the games, so that Dust would have a dominating effect on EVE, while EVE would have a much less harmful effect on Dust. The games are meant to have equal influence on each other. What I mean is, I don't think a Titan, or even a small frigate, will be able to board your dropsuit. Except they'll be able to bomb the living **** out of us. And we can fire the Skyfire Battery right back at them. However, the inherent issues with your argument - #1 someone on the ground has to request that Orbital Strike, #2 that isn't killing us from the inside where we cannot defend, where as boarding them is.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 03:55:00 - [7] - Quote Avenger 245 wrote: you assume dusties will move an act as a whole? if these dusties wont help you find some other or friends. besides it is a interesting concept for larger ships and well we would still rely on eve for manuacturing logistics and space control boarding could tip the scales in a battle but not destroy it we dusties would still be dependent on eve players for everything The fact that you think Dust is supposed to rely on EVE for all of its supply, shows that you are unaware of what Dust is meant to be in relation to EVE. CCP have directly stated that if one game were removed from the server, the other would survive just fine. Dust is going to have manufacturing, resource gathering, somehow even sovereignty. Having a corporation made 100% of Dust players, will be able to provide for all of their own needs, and own their own planets/systems. That said, giving Dust players the ability to board player owned ships, would sky rocket their value, and suddenly EVE would rely on Dust. It would make having mercenaries aboard your ship for protection, a necessity in hauling, PvP, exploring, mining, etc. If you did not having anyone aboard your ship, a group of total noobs would be able to take you out, so long as they have some Dust players to throw at you.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 04:29:00 - [8] - Quote STB Vermaak Doe wrote: Make the mercs have to do certain actions aboard the eve ship that if improperly done could result in a seizure of assets ftom the merc, enough to make it a risk v reward scenario The all of the ships main functions are controlled by the capsuleer as far as I know, and mercenaries are created specifically as war machines, they don't have much other value. So what "actions" would they be tasked with?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 04:39:00 - [9] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Final reason. It be cheaper to blow it (the ship) up than to hire mercs. Station and Outpost take overs are however different and can prove cost effective. Valid point, I'll add it in the OP as #5 and credit you.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 04:41:00 - [10] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Thats been answered already. Tell the computer where you want to upload and revive next point scrambler to head pull As long as there is a clone there (this is where eve player comes in handy) then you can wake up there. If an EVE player is required for the clone movement, then everything CCP wants for this game wont work. The game is supposed to work 100% without any reliance what so ever on EVE - and visa versa.

Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 04:48:00 - [11] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Mentally activates the neocom and holds his hand to head like a phone. "Hey non immortal dude over there at the biomass facility? Yeah uhm here I am going to wire over some some isk I wanna buy clones and enough nanite paste to cover all the manufacturing my liscences need. I am going to need it for an upcomming battle on your planet... Of course Ill not level your entire home city I only am interested in your place of work just be sure to evacuate the area before we land. Yeah your boss should have alerted you guys there was an attack contract made this morning. Okay thanks. Money should be over shortly." Dust players have the same capability.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 04:50:00 - [12] - Quote STB Vermaak Doe wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: STB Vermaak Doe wrote: Make the mercs have to do certain actions aboard the eve ship that if improperly done could result in a seizure of assets ftom the merc, enough to make it a risk v reward scenario The all of the ships main functions are controlled by the capsuleer as far as I know, and mercenaries are created specifically as war machines, they don't have much other value. So what "actions" would they be tasked with? That is where I'm stumped. Basically the actions regular crew would perform but exactly how to do it, i can't say I don't think this is a viable argument for it.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 06:21:00 - [13] - Quote SWEETY muffin CAKES wrote: When you take away the thought that things are impossible, you find ways to make them possible. Aside from the part that it is completely possible, it would just make mercenaries far to powerful. I am by no means saying it "can't" happen, I'm just saying it wont, shouldn't, and if it does, it will be a bad move on CCP's end.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.26 08:20:00 - [14] - Quote I'm just gonna say it again - ship boarding would make mercenaries to valuable. Any number of ways could make it a more "complicated" endeavor, but complex or not complex it would still be far to valuable. It would make having mercenaries at your disposal a necessity rather than an opportunity.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.27 04:27:00 - [15] - Quote Lasarte Ioni wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: I don't know how movement is going to work, but I'm sure it wont rely on EVE. The games are not suppose to rely on each other, they're supposed to add a strengthening element to each other. Maybe something like they did w custom offices; Concord decides to make some kind of space structure holding clones/MCCs so they can be deployed around the solar system/planet. Those structures should be conquerable/destructible in low/0.0 (maybe just in 0.0) It's in 0.0 when the war barges comes handy; the system/planetary structure isn't yours, so you gotta deploy a war barge, but they need a pilot, and that makes DUST dependent of EVE, but only in 0.0/[low?], places that actually belong to capsuleers. If you want to be independent, stick to high/[low?], but sure not 0.0, DUST should be quite dependent of EVE there. (So forget about all those plans of destroying the Goons with just mercs and a lot of will) Making Dust rely on EVE in 0.0 would be outright stupid. Especially considering that CCP outright stated that full Dust corps could have Sov in NullSec.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.27 18:50:00 - [16] - Quote Nathan Lander wrote: I would just set ship to self destruct if I got boarded. Hope you can leave within 30 seconds. Cheaper to but new ship then let you have mine. Unless of course you're flying around in a ship that costs 50,000,000,000 ISK. That translates to about $200 I believe.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.27 19:15:00 - [17] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: #6 If and where possible eve players will deny any chances of capture of anything useful to the enemy and will fire on thier own ships being comprimised. Not really a point against it, more so a defense mechanism.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.27 19:40:00 - [18] - Quote kalahari ilkeston wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Then tell me, how are mercs going to move between stantions/planets/systems/regions if we have to be lugged around by EVE players? Dust mercs are capable of independent movement. We will move around the same way we will without and kind of ship boarding in the system Um? I think you misunderstood what I was saying, possibly you didn't read what I was responding to. Also, I'm not really sure what you're saying, you wrote that sentence awkwardly.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.27 20:33:00 - [19] - Quote kalahari ilkeston wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Um? I think you misunderstood what I was saying, possibly you didn't read what I was responding to. Also, I'm not really sure what you're saying, you wrote that sentence awkwardly. dusties rely on eve players to be moved around??? once released dusties are supposed to be used to "take over objectives on planets for eve players" IRL im not going to be waiting in a transport to get to said planet I'm not the one that said Dust players will require EVE players to move them around. Someone else was saying that, and I was telling them that Dust players are capable of independent movement. You should read what you're replying to.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.27 20:53:00 - [20] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: #6 If and where possible eve players will deny any chances of capture of anything useful to the enemy and will fire on thier own ships being comprimised. Not really a point against it, more so a defense mechanism. Which is going to hvae dust players asking why bother? if they melt the ship 10 seconds into the match. Well, I suppose that is true. I'll add it to the list then.

Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.28 08:38:00 - [21] - Quote Mikel Dracionas wrote: From what I read the eve ships can fir the sky fire at any time or not at all its up to the pilot making the ships capable of attack dust controlled plants with out support and I'm not asking for boarding and firming back but hijacking it basic instant out of commision for the ship then the mercy and sell it or donate it to a eve corp of there choice the capsuleer doesn't have to die fir thus to happen just forced to land and held ransone till the end of battle then released back to nearest friendly base of theirs without their ship it would require the correct skill levels of certain skills depending on size and strength of ship the only room you'd have to see is the control room map problem solved caspuleer death solved ships destroying the captured ship solved plus you could make it possible but hard to detect the merc shuttles attempting to board therefore destroying them before they reach Target now its fair even Well, I didn't read most of that for the following reasons: #1 Wall Of Text. #2 You have an enter key, use it. #3 You have a shift key, that you are partially aware of it seems, but you should use it more often. #4 Learn how to use punctuation, it really helps state where sentences start and stop, as well as the flow of the words. #5 Your grammar is awful, please work on it. #6 It's good to spell words properly. *(Constructive Criticism.)* I read the first "sentence" so I'll respond to that. "From what I read the eve ships can fir the sky fire at any time or not at all its up to the pilot making the ships capable of attack dust controlled plants with out support" No, EVE players cannot drop orbital strikes whenever they want, someone on the ground has to request it and provide the coordinates.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.28 08:47:00 - [22] - Quote Axikal Fiervind wrote: These are just some ideas that I do think would balance it out. I disagree with most of what you wrote, but it's clear that you put much more thought and effort into it than most people that disagree with me. As such, one of your arguments really stood out to me, and I'll make an argument against you. It's 4am and making a full rebuttal would be.. quite the undertaking. Axikal Fiervind wrote: Then all the mercs would die, losing stock. I think what would be a nice idea is giving mercs the ability to sneak onto ships and try to avoid detection. Doing so would net them the ability to complete whatever objective they were given in the contract they chose, or what they decide to do with the ship if they choose to divert from the contract. There could also be a system that marks each merc for treacherous actions. Like a "karma" system that shows off whom is more likely to turn coat. This could be counter-intuitive to the concept of being a merc, but could also serve as a "reputation system" like on XBOX Live. Giving mercs the ability to "sneak" onto a ship would only strengthen their value, another argument against this. Sure you could have an AI defense system, but unless it is a computer controlled god mode, the players will always outsmart it. It would be necessary to have mercenaries defending you, as such their value would skyrocket and they would become a necessity outside all "safe zones" ie. HighSec. A karma system will already be in place, known as standing. If you wrong someone, they will lower your standing with them, which will in turn lower your overall effective standing.

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