DUST Search - Mass and the M&KB

Veigar Mordekaiser wrote:

Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote:

Aeon Amadi wrote:

It's arrogant to believe that a player should be FORCED to use a certain control scheme simply because the game is on that platform.

Uh.. but isn't it also arrogant to believe that every game should cater to your favorite custom controls instead of the controls designed for the system? o.o?

Aside from the part where the PS3 is designed to support KBM?

Volgair wrote:

Viegar, you and i have the same take on the control scheme as it currently exists, but i do not want this to become a "CCP failed at this" flame thread. that's why i thought two days on my potential solution before making a thread for it. i can think of no other way of going about a change, that would not make it too advantageous over the DS3 and allow me to more comfortably use my preferred method of in game control.

if any one else has an idea lets get em' out on the table.

It really is completely unimportant to balance the control schemes, as having every control scheme -available to every player- is in itself balanced.

Take for instance a fight between two equally skilled men; you give the first man a set of brass knuckles, and he says "Sweet, I'll knock his teeth in with these!" You approach the second man, and offer him the same set of brass knuckles, he responds "I don't need those to kick his ass!"

The obvious outcome, is that the first man pummels the second man, due to the advantage of having brass knuckles. However, it would be illogical to say that the fight was unfair - both men were offered the same weapon; one took advantage of it, and the other did not.

The same logic applies to KBM vs DS3, maybe not quite so dramatically, but I'm sure you can take from this the point I have made.

Edit: I am proud of this little essay.. Off to the feedback section!

Edit 2: I am not saying that a DS3 user is always going to be dominated by a KBM user, I have some friends who are VERY skilled with gamepads, and will dominate me regardless of what control scheme I choose to use. KBM provides an advantage, that is absolutely true; but a DS3 user that out skills a KBM user will still win.

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Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2012.08.17 05:41:00 - [1] - Quote the mass mechanic for the drop suits is a defining characteristic of this game to change it would in many ways break something that sets this game apart from many others. however as a heavy drop suit player, and primarily a PC gamer i was hoping to use a M&KB due to the fact that i am more comfortable with it and simply stated better with one then the DS3 controller. my problem is this. to turn my drop suit 180 degrees it takes 16" (as much as 29" if i move my hand at the speed i normally use) of mouse movement not because of a lack of DPI but because of the mass delay. again, i would not change that mechanic. instead i would propose a change to camera management for M&KB that would allow you to swing your camera focus at the users selected DPI and the drop suit would then "lag" (field of fire included) behind until properly positioned. this would mean that your mouse pointer works as a focal point for your camera and the ctr model optimizes positioning in attempts too keep up. that's my thought, for a scout or assault suit its not as bad but still not comfortable. certainly not ideal. for now i will use the DS3 because it does not feel as clumsy and sluggish.
Rasatsu Much Crying Old Experts 437	Posted - 2012.08.17 05:46:00 - [2] - Quote Learn to move your mouse slower perhaps?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.17 05:52:00 - [3] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Learn to move your mouse slower perhaps? Have you tried playing with KBM yet? It's like being stuck inside a slow moving window. I'd like to ask you - in real life, does it take 2 or 3 seconds for a soldier to turn around?
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2012.08.17 06:01:00 - [4] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Rasatsu wrote: Learn to move your mouse slower perhaps? Have you tried playing with KBM yet? It's like being stuck inside a slow moving window. I'd like to ask you - in real life, does it take 2 or 3 seconds for a soldier to turn around? Viegar, you and i have the same take on the control scheme as it currently exists, but i do not want this to become a "CCP failed at this" flame thread. that's why i thought two days on my potential solution before making a thread for it. i can think of no other way of going about a change, that would not make it too advantageous over the DS3 and allow me to more comfortably use my preferred method of in game control. if any one else has an idea lets get em' out on the table.
Aeon Amadi Maverick Conflict Solutions 1003	Posted - 2012.08.17 06:23:00 - [5] - Quote Rasatsu wrote: Learn to move your mouse slower perhaps? The speed you move the mouse has nothing to do with it. The issue lies in that the sensitivity for the mouse, even at 100%, is so low that you can only turn about 20 degrees in any direction by the time the mouse is already off the desk. Sensitivity and turn speed are two very different things and honestly using the mouse as a focal point where the camera has to catch up would probably be the best thing here. Otherwise you'd have to lift the mouse, re-position it, and keep swinging it in the direction you want to go. However, as it being the focal point, it shouldn't be made so that the camera will continue moving in the direction the mouse moved until it lands at the assumed destination - it should be interrupted so that when the mouse moves right and the camera follows, if the mouse moves left the camera should halt and change direction. Currently, the KBM setup is bad. I am absolutely ashamed that it's not even being recognized as a legitimate issue, instead being looked at as a "haha, you finally got what you want and it's not good enough for you" sort of thing. KBM is not an advantage - it's a playstyle. The Move/Sharpshooter can no more be considered an advantage than it is a playstyle either as it's a different format that works well for certain people. Not everyone is good with a controller because some of us have simply not owned a PS3 for the past five years. We've been playing the same games as you (BF3/CoD) with a Keyboard and Mouse because it's our chosen playstyle. It's arrogant to believe that a player should be FORCED to use a certain control scheme simply because the game is on that platform. You can disagree as much as you please but I can guarantee that anyone here who has never owned an Xbox 360 would not be happy if the DS3/Six-Axis controller didn't work as intended - let alone expected - on an Xbox 360. Most of you would be complaining, whining, moaning and groaning until you got a workable control mechanic that fit, not only your preference, but what you've used for the past few years.
Mo Gallas Gentralde Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 178	Posted - 2012.08.17 07:14:00 - [6] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: It's arrogant to believe that a player should be FORCED to use a certain control scheme simply because the game is on that platform. Uh.. but isn't it also arrogant to believe that every game should cater to your favorite custom controls instead of the controls designed for the system? o.o?
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.17 07:28:00 - [7] - Quote Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It's arrogant to believe that a player should be FORCED to use a certain control scheme simply because the game is on that platform. Uh.. but isn't it also arrogant to believe that every game should cater to your favorite custom controls instead of the controls designed for the system? o.o? Aside from the part where the PS3 is designed to support KBM? Volgair wrote: Viegar, you and i have the same take on the control scheme as it currently exists, but i do not want this to become a "CCP failed at this" flame thread. that's why i thought two days on my potential solution before making a thread for it. i can think of no other way of going about a change, that would not make it too advantageous over the DS3 and allow me to more comfortably use my preferred method of in game control. if any one else has an idea lets get em' out on the table. It really is completely unimportant to balance the control schemes, as having every control scheme *-available to every player-* is in itself balanced. Take for instance a fight between two equally skilled men; you give the first man a set of brass knuckles, and he says "Sweet, I'll knock his teeth in with these!" You approach the second man, and offer him the same set of brass knuckles, he responds "I don't need those to kick his ass!" The obvious outcome, is that the first man pummels the second man, due to the advantage of having brass knuckles. However, it would be illogical to say that the fight was unfair - both men were offered the same weapon; one took advantage of it, and the other did not. The same logic applies to KBM vs DS3, maybe not quite so dramatically, but I'm sure you can take from this the point I have made. Edit: I am proud of this little essay.. Off to the feedback section! Edit 2: I am not saying that a DS3 user is always going to be dominated by a KBM user, I have some friends who are VERY skilled with gamepads, and will dominate me regardless of what control scheme I choose to use. KBM provides an advantage, that is absolutely true; but a DS3 user that out skills a KBM user will still win.
Raynor Ragna 266	Posted - 2012.08.17 07:44:00 - [8] - Quote So far CCP has done a good job on the KBM implementation but it can be improved. If I understand the OPs idea, having the mouse move the camera but the gun reticule lag behind as it should for the given fit would be an interesting option. Though I do think that the current mechanic works for me the best.
carl von oppenheimer Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.08.17 07:54:00 - [9] - Quote On the other hand we can't restrict the movement much or we get hard core uprising against "the slow shooter". Issues is that mouse and DS3 turns speed should and must remain the same this leads to gaming feeling of "waiting to happen" if you make a some sort of auto turn feature for mouse to avoid excessive mouse movements on a mouse pad. Or you can leave it to current state where you feel like you have throw your mouse out of the window to make full circle. Dunno really it's a tricky thing balancing a mouse to have decent control feel while keeping DS3 as a base line.
4447 ZionTCD Legacy Rising 649	Posted - 2012.08.17 09:00:00 - [10] - Quote i don't care too much for the KB/M but i would like the DS3 to have more speed on turning.

Song Soulfire Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 44	Posted - 2012.08.17 09:30:00 - [11] - Quote the precision of a mouse lies in the fact that movement is analogous to position, to continue a movement you must continue moving the mouse. the analog sticks on a game controller depend on a different system, where any position other then 0 results in movement, this is less precise then a mouse. how else other then turn speed can KBM be balanced around DS3 (which is the native control format for the PS3 system). To argue that all users have the option to use KBM, and that as such should not complain ( if KBM is unfettered), is to ignore that very fact .. that DS3 is the default for the system ... so unless Dust wishes to only be playable in KBM, then they Must balance in favour of the default. IMHO.. suggesting how to Balance the two control systems would do far more as far as reaching an unfettered KBM playstyle. my 0.02 isk
Jedd Brown Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:41:00 - [12] - Quote Guys if CCP want to adjust a proper sensivity then it will be done but They don't want to KB/M fps game because Sony want to use pad and move for this game.
Debacle Nano Shadow Company HQ 639	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:43:00 - [13] - Quote Jedd Brown wrote: They don't want to KB/M fps game because Sony want to use pad and move for this game. Link?
Osiris Greywolf Edimmu Warfighters Gallente Federation 80	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:46:00 - [14] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Mo Gallas Gentralde wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: It's arrogant to believe that a player should be FORCED to use a certain control scheme simply because the game is on that platform. Uh.. but isn't it also arrogant to believe that every game should cater to your favorite custom controls instead of the controls designed for the system? o.o? Aside from the part where the PS3 is designed to support KBM? Volgair wrote: Viegar, you and i have the same take on the control scheme as it currently exists, but i do not want this to become a "CCP failed at this" flame thread. that's why i thought two days on my potential solution before making a thread for it. i can think of no other way of going about a change, that would not make it too advantageous over the DS3 and allow me to more comfortably use my preferred method of in game control. if any one else has an idea lets get em' out on the table. It really is completely unimportant to balance the control schemes, as having every control scheme *-available to every player-* is in itself balanced. Take for instance a fight between two equally skilled men; you give the first man a set of brass knuckles, and he says "Sweet, I'll knock his teeth in with these!" You approach the second man, and offer him the same set of brass knuckles, he responds "I don't need those to kick his ass!" The obvious outcome, is that the first man pummels the second man, due to the advantage of having brass knuckles. However, it would be illogical to say that the fight was unfair - both men were offered the same weapon; one took advantage of it, and the other did not. The same logic applies to KBM vs DS3, maybe not quite so dramatically, but I'm sure you can take from this the point I have made. Edit: I am proud of this little essay.. Off to the feedback section! Edit 2: I am not saying that a DS3 user is always going to be dominated by a KBM user, I have some friends who are VERY skilled with gamepads, and will dominate me regardless of what control scheme I choose to use. KBM provides an advantage, that is absolutely true; but a DS3 user that out skills a KBM user will still win. How about you throw us a new analogy, you know, polish up your rhetoric, I've already shown you the flaws in this one.
Flux Raeder WarRavens 83	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:48:00 - [15] - Quote Volgair wrote: the mass mechanic for the drop suits is a defining characteristic of this game to change it would in many ways break something that sets this game apart from many others. however as a heavy drop suit player, and primarily a PC gamer i was hoping to use a M&KB due to the fact that i am more comfortable with it and simply stated better with one then the DS3 controller. my problem is this. to turn my drop suit 180 degrees it takes 16" (as much as 29" if i move my hand at the speed i normally use) of mouse movement not because of a lack of DPI but because of the mass delay. again, i would not change that mechanic. instead i would propose a change to camera management for M&KB that would allow you to swing your camera focus at the users selected DPI and the drop suit would then "lag" (field of fire included) behind until properly positioned. this would mean that your mouse pointer works as a focal point for your camera and the ctr model optimizes positioning in attempts too keep up. that's my thought, for a scout or assault suit its not as bad but still not comfortable. certainly not ideal. for now i will use the DS3 because it does not feel as clumsy and sluggish. Or, OR you could get a trackball mouse! Which honestly any real pc gamer should use as they out-shine regular mice in every aspect.
Shinigami6 Test Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 39	Posted - 2012.08.17 10:58:00 - [16] - Quote Veigar Mordekaiser wrote: Rasatsu wrote: Learn to move your mouse slower perhaps? Have you tried playing with KBM yet? It's like being stuck inside a slow moving window. I'd like to ask you - in real life, does it take 2 or 3 seconds for a soldier to turn around? I dont like trolling. i dont like insulting. i dont like anything negative, quite honestly. Nonetheless, this bothers me so much i have to say this. By far, the stupidest argument one can make regarding game mechanics is the "in real life..." argument. "In real life" dust 514 does not exist whatsoever.
Badly Owned xOne Man Armyx 49	Posted - 2012.08.17 11:31:00 - [17] - Quote Trackball for the win =p don't have to move 16 to 29 inches just slap spin a few times then stop and aim. edit btw i use a microsoft trackball explorer 1.0 i find the continuous movement of the mouse no big deal.
Darkz azurr Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 105	Posted - 2012.08.17 11:36:00 - [18] - Quote you guys are turning up your ds3 sensitivities to 100 right ? i had np using m/kb in an assault suit, never tried the heavy w kb/m. even that turns slow on ds3
Mobius Wyvern BetaMax. 1216	Posted - 2012.08.17 12:22:00 - [19] - Quote Its kind of funny honestly, because all the anti-KB/M people were sobbing about 180 snap-turns and getting no-scoped and ****, and instead this new control option almost seems like a liability.
Debacle Nano Shadow Company HQ 639	Posted - 2012.08.17 12:48:00 - [20] - Quote They just need to even it out right now. KB/M just a bit too limited.

Boxoffire Lost-Legion 47	Posted - 2012.08.17 13:27:00 - [21] - Quote I agree with the OP. I still think they should allow the mouse the move freely but strengthen the aim assist. Not making the range that it is activated but by how much it will reduce the sensitivity. But they should do it in a way where the DS3 seems better than the KBM to a player that is new to both KBM and DS3 controls. You will still do really well if you are veteran of the KBM. It's a delicate balance but I'm if they achieve it will work well. I haven't thought I though yet so I don't see any problems with that idea yet.
BLENDEDDAVE WARRIORS 29	Posted - 2012.08.17 13:29:00 - [22] - Quote just use controller after 2 weeks of play you will wonder why you ever did it any other way
Ender Storm Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 50	Posted - 2012.08.17 13:29:00 - [23] - Quote Volgair wrote: the mass mechanic for the drop suits is a defining characteristic of this game to change it would in many ways break something that sets this game apart from many others. however as a heavy drop suit player, and primarily a PC gamer i was hoping to use a M&KB due to the fact that i am more comfortable with it and simply stated better with one then the DS3 controller. my problem is this. to turn my drop suit 180 degrees it takes 16" (as much as 29" if i move my hand at the speed i normally use) of mouse movement not because of a lack of DPI but because of the mass delay. again, i would not change that mechanic. instead i would propose a change to camera management for M&KB that would allow you to swing your camera focus at the users selected DPI and the drop suit would then "lag" (field of fire included) behind until properly positioned. this would mean that your mouse pointer works as a focal point for your camera and the ctr model optimizes positioning in attempts too keep up. that's my thought, for a scout or assault suit its not as bad but still not comfortable. certainly not ideal. for now i will use the DS3 because it does not feel as clumsy and sluggish. Basically make us behave like in a tank game? hehe
Fuma Centuri Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 107	Posted - 2012.08.17 14:02:00 - [24] - Quote Badly Owned wrote: Trackball for the win =p don't have to move 16 to 29 inches just slap spin a few times then stop and aim. edit btw i use a microsoft trackball explorer 1.0 i find the continuous movement of the mouse no big deal. Logitech TrackMan Wheel here :)
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2012.08.17 14:54:00 - [25] - Quote Ender Storm wrote: Basically make us behave like in a tank game? hehe that's kind of sad to admit, but yeah it is kind of like a tank game control scheme... in an FPS... it would still be better then the current setup of that i have no doubt.
Terram Nenokal BetaMax. 115	Posted - 2012.08.17 15:06:00 - [26] - Quote I really like Volgair's idea in the original post. It's important to retain the varied tracking per suit, since it's a staple of Eve and Dust combat. I could tolerate the aim lag if it meant I could do a 180 on a few inches of my desk and then wait for my weapon to catch up.
Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2012.08.17 15:16:00 - [27] - Quote I think OP's idea might be too complicated for CCP to impliment, but it's not a bad idea if you think of the difference between the camera and reticle as the difference between your eyes and aim. (SInce outside of games, you aren't permanently looking and aiming at the same point.)
Jedd Brown Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2012.08.17 15:57:00 - [28] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Jedd Brown wrote: They don't want to KB/M fps game because Sony want to use pad and move for this game. Link? For what? I'ts obvious. CCP- company responsible for EVE mmo don't know how to adjust KB/M? Devs are stupid? No. So? They deliberate such thing. I'ts a console game develop with SONY and game must be playable for hords of players. If we receive good KB/M then you'll see hords leaving this game after couple of days with bad experience. Why? Hords of PS3 owners don't have KB/M and disproportion between pad-move / KB/M is tremendous.
Veigar Mordekaiser Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 676	Posted - 2012.08.17 19:24:00 - [29] - Quote Osiris Greywolf wrote: How about you throw us a new analogy, you know, polish up your rhetoric, I've already shown you the flaws in this one. No, you've just decided to be ignorant about it. This analogy works perfectly well, and I will continue to use it.
SILENTSAM 69 Pro Hic Immortalis RISE of LEGION 421	Posted - 2012.08.17 19:30:00 - [30] - Quote The KB/M will get fixed. i doubt it was meant to turn that slowly. It was obviously broken. Hopefully it is better in Phase 2.

Debacle Nano Shadow Company HQ 639	Posted - 2012.08.17 19:32:00 - [31] - Quote Jedd Brown wrote: Debacle Nano wrote: Jedd Brown wrote: They don't want to KB/M fps game because Sony want to use pad and move for this game. Link? For what? I'ts obvious. CCP- company responsible for EVE mmo don't know how to adjust KB/M? Devs are stupid? No. So? They deliberate such thing. I'ts a console game develop with SONY and game must be playable for hords of players. If we receive good KB/M then you'll see hords leaving this game after couple of days with bad experience. Why? Hords of PS3 owners don't have KB/M and disproportion between pad-move / KB/M is tremendous. I don't take assumptions for facts. It's not smart to use this.
Dainkbudz 0	Posted - 2012.08.17 19:35:00 - [32] - Quote Keyboard & Mouse for the win. Got my Tron KB/M ready.....
charlesnette dalari Creative Killers 159	Posted - 2012.08.17 20:11:00 - [33] - Quote I personally haven't tried KB/M with heavy suits yet but I can say I thought it worked great on assault. I before native support was using KB/M with a dualshock emulator called GIMX(gimx is like eagle eye but uses Linux computer and Bluetooth dongle) and native has a slightly slower turn speed but not a terribly huge difference than the settings I used with GIMX. At a certain point if I set my turn speed too high with GIMX it negatively impacted my aim especially at longer distances. One suggestion I have is use the highest dpi mouse you can since I did try my cheapo mouse to compare to my R.A.T. and I did definitely notice a difference then. I will try heavy suits when the server is back and see if I notice a considerable difference. although I am sure some of that is by design since the trade off for heavies is greater armor for less mobility but maybe CCP has it set too slow for hevy turn speed, like I say though I don't know. I personally think CCP has done a great job so far with KB/M and am sure they will improve it as we go. I just want key remaps. unless I am missing something I couldn't do it in the stage 1 build and I also hope they allow those of us with more mouse buttons to map those as well.
Jedd Brown Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 20	Posted - 2012.08.17 21:02:00 - [34] - Quote Debacle Nano wrote: Jedd Brown wrote: Debacle Nano wrote: Jedd Brown wrote: They don't want to KB/M fps game because Sony want to use pad and move for this game. Link? For what? I'ts obvious. CCP- company responsible for EVE mmo don't know how to adjust KB/M? Devs are stupid? No. So? They deliberate such thing. I'ts a console game develop with SONY and game must be playable for hords of players. If we receive good KB/M then you'll see hords leaving this game after couple of days with bad experience. Why? Hords of PS3 owners don't have KB/M and disproportion between pad-move / KB/M is tremendous. I don't take assumptions for facts. It's not smart to use this. Sometimes deduction is all we have it's nothigng magical simply using a brain. I hope they change their minds but it's fool's hope.
Volgair Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 200	Posted - 2012.08.20 16:51:00 - [35] - Quote BLENDEDDAVE WARRIORS wrote: just use controller after 2 weeks of play you will wonder why you ever did it any other way i've been part of this Beta since the first wave of keys became available. im good with a DS3. im better with a M&KB its not that one is necessarily better then the other. i just prefer the precision normally provided from a mouse control scheme over a ergonomically designed and simplified game pad.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.08.20 16:52:00 - [36] - Quote Volgair wrote: the mass mechanic for the drop suits is a defining characteristic of this game to change it would in many ways break something that sets this game apart from many others. however as a heavy drop suit player, and primarily a PC gamer i was hoping to use a M&KB due to the fact that i am more comfortable with it and simply stated better with one then the DS3 controller. my problem is this. to turn my drop suit 180 degrees it takes 16" (as much as 29" if i move my hand at the speed i normally use) of mouse movement not because of a lack of DPI but because of the mass delay. again, i would not change that mechanic. instead i would propose a change to camera management for M&KB that would allow you to swing your camera focus at the users selected DPI and the drop suit would then "lag" (field of fire included) behind until properly positioned. this would mean that your mouse pointer works as a focal point for your camera and the ctr model optimizes positioning in attempts too keep up. that's my thought, for a scout or assault suit its not as bad but still not comfortable. certainly not ideal. for now i will use the DS3 because it does not feel as clumsy and sluggish. This is a legitimate issue. I have to agree that it shouldnt take entire mouse pads to turn you around.
Garrett Blacknova Codex Troopers 1849	Posted - 2012.08.20 17:29:00 - [37] - Quote Mouse turning speed = Sixaxis turning speed. There's no advantage OR disadvantage to using one over the other in terms of turning speed. Moving the mouse at an appropriate speed for the turning cap will allow you to make almost a 270-Ü turn without having to lift your mouse, assuming a normal-sized mousepad. This is perfectly acceptable. It handles differently from most FPS games on PC, but that doesn't automatically make it bad, or mean that KB+M is unfairly hindered by the difference from what you're used to. Practice, GET used to it, and you'll find that you still get your precision aiming advantage that you wanted from mouse control.


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