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Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Every military officer will tell you, you dont engage an enemy unless you have the odds stacked 5 to 1 in your favor. Ambush is a simple 1 on 1 engagement between two ostensibly equal forces (infantry) and even if you throw in good equipment and vehicles you dont up your chances even to a 2 to 1 fight in your favor due to the cluttered maps and dropship nerf.
SO my question is why is this even an option for military commander to try and take an objective. Seems very last ditch or spec ops to me but the gamer in me says its just to satisfy the Death-match crowd. Which is fine but that means if it isnt an effective way to use Dusters to take a region as in its a crap shoot if it works or not why attempt it. Skirmish gives vehicles, long range infantry and recons an advantage of space and is a lot more predictable for a good coordinated team to lock down on offense. The different spawn areas that can be selected as opposed to random spawning of ambush;Thus the advantage goes up. All this leads me to one conclusion game modes are tantamount to battle plans for Eve commanders. If eve commanders cant choose the game type and they are forced into certain kinds of conflict on certain maps. Specific districts will be avoided till last due to the unwieldy nature of a head on infantry engagement or death match will only be found in High sec where CCp forces Ambush maps to happen. |
Obama DAT
Doomheim
389
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine! |
Sandromin Hes
Sand Mercenary Corps Inc.
204
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ambushes are to weaken forces en route to an objective. They also hit the enemies' ISK amounts, and force EvE players to either pay them for the battle, or fire their mercs. Also, teams won't be even. And another thing to take into consideration is it's possibly for High/Mid-sec. And, the commander stuff only applies to true organized warfare. Guerilla warfare takes small amounts of soldiers who hit 'n run large amounts of soldiers, like in Vietnam. And the 5 to 1 is Sun Tzu's teaching if I'm not mistaken. Warfare has changed since then. The army with better leaders and better gear and better soldiers can take an army out 10 to 1. Thus, Ambushes are a viable combat form, and have a much deeper tactical meaning. |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:13:00 -
[4] - Quote
Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine!
Your saying we should waste isk/time on unsound battles, this is the foundation of military theory and it most defiantly applies to this game if they are going through with what they described so far. Throwing men into an equal engagement is a slaughter for both sides and generally does no one any good. The adaptation commanders use for this is to not do it unless they are trapped even then you usually surrender or die. Thats why we don't fight battles like we did during the Revolutionary war, all lines up and proper, its to take as much advantage away from the enemy as we can then kill them. We might as well all line up and walk towards each other with our ARS like the old days if your saying ambush is tactically sound. |
STB Vermaak Doe
558
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
Give us a convoy to attack/defend in ambush. Nuff said |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
5 to 1 still is the ratio; equipment quality/type, vehicles, training, information etc are all factored into this ratio and still holds true. Hence why Sun Zhu was able to dominate Chinese warlords with the smaller army. |
Kira Lannister
Hellstorm Inc
League of Infamy
711
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Leave Ambush alone. It is fun. You can just chill out and kill. |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.08.15 23:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
No ambush is wrong for the same reason drop ship crushing was wrong; No one in real life would attempt that poo poo and no Eve corp would pick it over skirmish for serious district work if they had a choice. |
theschizogenious
KILL-EM-QUICK
RISE of LEGION
167
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine!
guess who played with valor |
Sandromin Hes
Sand Mercenary Corps Inc.
204
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:49:00 -
[10] - Quote
Keep in mind we're immortal. So deaths, slaughter, and such do not account into the aftermath, which is the main thing in account as well. If I lead an ambush, I would focus and destroying anything they used, while telling my troops to waste as little as possible. Thus, I'd have either a Pyrrhic or true victory. Forcing them to lose ISK forces the EvE players to pay more or fire them/let them quit. Because of that, you'd weaken them significantly.
Sun Tzu's Art of War Chapter 3: "Thus, the highest form of of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; (active counter-attack is implied in the original Chinese text) the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; (basically forcing him to have no reinforcements or supply lines) the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; (just what it says) and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities."
He also said: "The good fighters of old first put themselves beyond the possibility of defeat, and then waited for an opportunity of defeating the enemy."- which in Ambush means to destroy their ISK, forcing them to buy more and more until the above had happened (the part with EvE).
And also: Therefore the skillful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field.
^Implies running down their ISK is a good strategem (through Ambush I suppose)
And again...: It is the rule in war, if our forces are ten to the enemy's one, to surround him; if five to one, to attack him; if twice as numerous, to divide our army into two. If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him.
^The 2 to 1 is implied to create a diversion with one part, and attack with the other.
Thus we may know that there are five essentials for victory: (1) He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. (2) He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. (3) He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. (4) He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. (5) He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
^The second point applies to those skilled in the art of war (experienced/good leaders). These things are factors to be taken.
And one final thing. Remember the Battle of the Ia Drang Valley. 3 Cavalry Battalions landed at the valley, and 5 Vietcong/NVA battalions fought us (not including support functions). Roughly 100 died on our side in the first battle, and on the other side, we estimatedly killed 1200 enemy troops. Odds/numbers can be taken into account, but they do not define a battle, which is much more fluid than on paper. |
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Arborius Veredus
31
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
To adapt the MST3K Mantra to this situation:
"It's just a game, you should really just relax."
Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine!
Oh god, not you again. |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
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Posted - 2012.08.15 23:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
I guess context is an issue too; are we ambushing this instalation? As in are we surprise attacking some where where they havent prepared for us. If thats the case we are most likely attacking clones that are left on site as security; why are we going in with exactly the same amount of clones and no supply depots or clone vats get thrown down. As far whats going on in these maps the objective is unclear. Even in the pure infantry setting of an ambush map I have longed for a CRU or Supply Depot. |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
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Posted - 2012.08.16 00:00:00 -
[13] - Quote
Arborius Veredus wrote:To adapt the MST3K Mantra to this situation: "It's just a game, you should really just relax." Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine! Oh god, not you again.
Some eve players control empires and this matters to that small 1 percentage
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Taldemon
0
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Posted - 2012.08.16 01:04:00 -
[14] - Quote
why even bother having DUST, we can just bring a few spaceships into orbit and blow the planet up.
This is what your 3rd thread complaining about ambush?
When they are done testing the instant battle thingie they'll put the servers back up and you'll be able to play skirmish non stop. |
Longshot Ravenwood
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
680
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Posted - 2012.08.16 01:09:00 -
[15] - Quote
Blame concord --- making us fight fair instead of fighting to win. |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
|
Posted - 2012.08.16 01:21:00 -
[16] - Quote
Taldemon wrote:why even bother having DUST, we can just bring a few spaceships into orbit and blow the planet up.
This is what your 3rd thread complaining about ambush?
When they are done testing the instant battle thingie they'll put the servers back up and you'll be able to play skirmish non stop.
CCp already ruled out death star like activity so back to why Ambush is the way it is please. |
Rhadiem
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
496
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Posted - 2012.08.16 01:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
I dont' mind ambush until I'm MADE to go to it by the matchmaking system. I just leave them and waste the 1 game I'm able to get into in a 30 min period. :(
Why I waste my time on things as buggy/goofy as they are now, I don't know. Just trying to make lemonade out of my overpriced, paperthin dropship lemons, I suppose.
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Arborius Veredus
31
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Posted - 2012.08.16 01:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Carilito wrote:Arborius Veredus wrote:To adapt the MST3K Mantra to this situation: "It's just a game, you should really just relax." Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine! Oh god, not you again. Some eve players control empires and this matters to that small 1 percentage
Okay, as a more thoughtful answer to your question, it's no fun for the losing party to play a match five-to-one. Therefore, It makes sense for Highsec matchmaking to not allow such widely disparate forces to clash for the sake of making sure people enjoy themselves. However, I'm sure you'll be able to curbstomp vastly weaker merc forces in Nullsec space, so don't worry. |
HowDidThatTaste
Imperfects
Negative-Feedback
2242
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Posted - 2012.08.16 01:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sorry didn't read posts..
Answer to op
Because I like it. Insert song there.
Just wait until you have been wiped. It brings a whole new as proto man says .farming to the mix. |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
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Posted - 2012.08.16 01:56:00 -
[20] - Quote
Arborius Veredus wrote:Carilito wrote:Arborius Veredus wrote:To adapt the MST3K Mantra to this situation: "It's just a game, you should really just relax." Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine! Oh god, not you again. Some eve players control empires and this matters to that small 1 percentage Okay, as a more thoughtful answer to your question, it's no fun for the losing party to play a match five-to-one. Therefore, It makes sense for Highsec matchmaking to not allow such widely disparate forces to clash for the sake of making sure people enjoy themselves. However, I'm sure you'll be able to curbstomp vastly weaker merc forces in Nullsec space, so don't worry.
High sec can be as care bear as it wants to be and by all means have death-match in it; hell I advocate death-match gets a lore counter part as some pro clone merc sports program but as it stands, unless a corp is forced to use the ambush game type, it offers no benefits to any of the corps. Its up to the mercs they contract out to and even then they could get smashed by super pro defense and no corp likes to fight on anything close to an equal footing. On skirmish there are supply depots and CRUS things that allow a good team to surpass a mediocre team. Ambush is two things A. two roaming balls of death that grind against each other with snipers picking off stragglers or 2. complete chaos with snipers; I wouldnt pay for that especially if my planet is at stake.
Edit: Wipe those ambush games off the map protoman, at least that part is fun |
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Surtur Reaperson
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2012.08.16 05:59:00 -
[21] - Quote
Its... a *******... videogame.
If you are too serious for it, power up your pc and keep feeding the EVE player stereotype, psh "ruling empires"... like it was a tangible thing... |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
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Posted - 2012.08.16 06:25:00 -
[22] - Quote
You act like dust 514 can pay for its self over the first 6 months oh yeah it cant unless its supported by eve corps through and through, that use it as viable way to influence planetary sov giving players a top tier. This game is relying on the premise of eves corps to be able to use dusters as infantry in there wars. Type in eve territorial map and you will see what I mean. If eve corps dont use dust, dust is stuck in high sec. Believe it or not Eve players are bit more important to CCP as they are the ones who are gonna directly feel the effects of Dust and in turn effect CCPs revenue(incarna). If Dust has bad military mechanics on the eve commander side, like ambush(death match), then it will be pushed aside for more favorable tactics. Its not a hard concept; its the same reason you go to the store as opposed to finding it yourself, its easier. That being said Im confident your comment was made in ignorance as very few see the inner circle of corps and alliances. It is literally less then 1 percent of people who play eve can even say they know how hard it is to maintain a corp, especially under war; It takes on very similar structures to real war.
Please Watch |
Evane Sa'edi
Celtic Anarchy
62
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Posted - 2012.08.16 06:43:00 -
[23] - Quote
Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine!
Space Marines have better armour, weapons, equipment and jump packs.
Its a quote from the movie "Heaqrtbreak Ridge" staring Mr Eastwood |
Song Soulfire
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2012.08.16 06:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
oh god you linkd mittani?.. my eyes they bleed...:P |
Carilito
Algintal Core
Gallente Federation
345
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Posted - 2012.08.16 06:50:00 -
[25] - Quote
;) |
Surtur Reaperson
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2012.08.16 06:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
TLDR:
EVE: Serious business, anyone who says otherwise its ignorant.
Sorry for not revolving my life around a videogame. Oh and nice self entitlement "we eve people are more important than you". |
TEBOW BAGGINS
FIREFLY ATLANTIS ENTERPRISES UNLIMITED
TACNET
549
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Posted - 2012.08.16 07:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Obama DAT wrote:Improvise, Adapt, Overcome Space Marine!
I'm doing my part!
A good bug is a DEAD bug! |
Song Soulfire
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2012.08.16 07:03:00 -
[28] - Quote
Surtur Reaperson wrote:TLDR:
EVE: Serious business, anyone who says otherwise its ignorant.
Sorry for not revolving my life around a videogame. Oh and nice self entitlement "we eve people are more important than you".
which if it was true, would mean we wouldn't be playing endless rounds of death matches ... :(
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Surtur Reaperson
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
49
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Posted - 2012.08.16 07:26:00 -
[29] - Quote
Well since im posting from work... well, you tell me. |
Song Soulfire
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2012.08.16 08:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
i was being glib |
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Dariuz Krul
Tronhadar Free Guard
Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.08.16 10:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
I had a well thought out, meaningful argument against the very premise of Ambush\Team Deathmatch mode from a persistant world commanders point of view, citing the Art of War, the Kobiyashi Maru and other pertinent facts, but, really, it just sux! Come on... WIPE FTW!
P.S. Psychological warfare is a well established fact in EvE.. Don't succumb to it, just stop feeding the egos, QQFTW.. |
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