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Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
287
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
You get points for killing others, but also for assists, hacks, repairs, nano-s, uplinks, etc.
The KDR measures how many people died to you per your death.
Your PDR would measure how much you contribute for each death.
IF all you do is shoot people and nothing else, your PDR will be roughly equal to 50X what your KDR is now, plus some for the assists you will inevitably get.
If you don't just shoot people, and instead do other things as well, your PDR will reflect this.
Allow the stats to be broken down inside the PDR by a percentage of each contributing factor, so you can see that your total points are say 54% from killing people, 38% from hacks, 8% from assists, etc.
Then, if your team/corp/GF etc cares only about KDR, then you can figure that out all you want and if your team/corp cares about team work and other contributions, they can look at that as well.
Either way, it puts the tools in the hands of the players instead of in the hands of the guy writing the code for the stats screen.
Over time, players will learn what an acceptable/unacceptable/stellar PDR looks like without the need for a long drawn out philosophical discussion about what makes a good FPS player. |
Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:29:00 -
[2] - Quote
Why make it a ratio at all? How does the # of deaths matter? Just make it # of points per match, or per minute. |
Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 18:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:Why make it a ratio at all? How does the # of deaths matter? Just make it # of points per match, or per minute.
Which of these is a better player?
Player A: Receives 100 points for a successful hack. This is the only source of points the entire game. He hacks, succeeds, then guards the objective and no one ever comes to attack it. He never dies. PDR=100
Player B: Receives 100 points for a successful hack. This is the only source of points the entire game. He hacks, succeeds, then runs for the front lines of the battle and dies, over and over and over again for a total of 25 deaths during the match. PDR=4
If you do it by total points or points per minute, these two players look the same on paper.
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Arramakaian Eka
Tronhadar Free Guard Minmatar Republic
363
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Posted - 2012.08.06 18:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Traynor Youngs wrote:Arramakaian Eka wrote:Why make it a ratio at all? How does the # of deaths matter? Just make it # of points per match, or per minute. Which of these is a better player? Player A: Receives 100 points for a successful hack. This is the only source of points the entire game. He hacks, succeeds, then guards the objective and no one ever comes to attack it. He never dies. PDR=100 Player B: Receives 100 points for a successful hack. This is the only source of points the entire game. He hacks, succeeds, then runs for the front lines of the battle and dies, over and over and over again for a total of 25 deaths during the match. PDR=4 If you do it by total points or points per minute, these two players look the same on paper.
Although B died more, he was a more productive team player. Even if he died 25 times, that meant 25 times an enemy was busy killing him instead of capping an objective, while A was just sitting on his thumbs doing nothing useful for the rest of the map.
No system is perfect, but I'm not sure bringing # of deaths or kills into rankings is a useful metric in an objectives-based game. |
Naustradamus Oracle
Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation
61
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Posted - 2012.08.06 19:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arramakaian Eka wrote:
Although B died more, he was a more productive team player. Even if he died 25 times, that meant 25 times an enemy was busy killing him instead of capping an objective, while A was just sitting on his thumbs doing nothing useful for the rest of the map.
No system is perfect, but I'm not sure bringing # of deaths or kills into rankings is a useful metric in an objectives-based game.
Not really when you think about it ... some games have a limit on clone spawns ... if the players is attacking, then he just used up 25 clones and was infective with them. In a situation like this, rather then front line attack, the player should have chose another role such as staying back to hold the line, or if he has the skills, repair role, pilot vehicle, snipe, etc.
It might sound harsh, but you need to have some sort of point value per life ... I agree k/d ration shouldn't really be used cause there's lots of support actions you can do, but by being a ineffective player, your not helping your team ... if there's a time limit or spawn limit, you can actually hurt your team indirectly. |
Gordon WarHammer
Corporate Industrial Industries Corporation
3
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Posted - 2012.08.06 20:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
egh i had a point but fail to make it |
Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.08.06 21:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Naustradamus Oracle wrote:Arramakaian Eka wrote:
Although B died more, he was a more productive team player. Even if he died 25 times, that meant 25 times an enemy was busy killing him instead of capping an objective, while A was just sitting on his thumbs doing nothing useful for the rest of the map.
No system is perfect, but I'm not sure bringing # of deaths or kills into rankings is a useful metric in an objectives-based game.
Not really when you think about it ... some games have a limit on clone spawns ... if the players is attacking, then he just used up 25 clones and was infective with them. In a situation like this, rather then front line attack, the player should have chose another role such as staying back to hold the line, or if he has the skills, repair role, pilot vehicle, snipe, etc. It might sound harsh, but you need to have some sort of point value per life ... I agree k/d ration shouldn't really be used cause there's lots of support actions you can do, but by being a ineffective player, your not helping your team ... if there's a time limit or spawn limit, you can actually hurt your team indirectly.
Furthermore, if a Point/Death ratio were implemented instead of a Kill/Death ratio, then when adjustments are made to the point system (points for various forms of assistance) then the ratio doesn't need any additional tweaking.
For instance, if there is a slow tick of points for defending an objective, then player A would get more points and have fewer deaths and there would be a point incentive for defending an objective.
Or if a dropship pilot gets points each time someone deploys from the dropship. Of course this might also call into question if you should get the deaths of your passengers against your ratio... Which I think might be a good idea. In that case, having your dropship shutdown with all hands could cost you 7 deaths in your ratio stats.
Again, all of the accumulated points should be able to be broken down by type and examined so as to better hone in on what you actually do well and what you don't do well. |
KAGEHOSHI Horned Wolf
Seraphim Initiative. CRONOS.
3064
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Posted - 2012.08.07 10:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
+1 I fully support this |
Seran Jinkar
Sanmatar Kelkoons Minmatar Republic
214
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Posted - 2012.08.07 11:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
if you want a ratio make it a points/isk spent ratio.
Or check out "MERCulator" with the search and let's choose ourselves which kind of statistic we want to be displayed in the end screen. So Assaults can stick to KDR, Snipers show their headshot statistics, Logis can sort by Warpoint contribution, Dropship pilots sort by Spawns/ship. In Germany we say:"Don't compare Apples and Pears." Maybe that should be the attitude. What's the point in this table anyway? |
Khun-Al
135
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Posted - 2012.08.07 11:09:00 -
[10] - Quote
I am for this with small changes. It should be a positive/negative ratio so everything would have an effect. Positves are the points you earned. Negatives are for example hacks in a certain range from you, friendly fire, loss of defended objects, deaths of gunners in your tank and your deaths. Deaths count less if there are enemies within a certain range around you so it compensates that for example snipers are killed lesser. |
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Oswald Banecroft II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
10
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Posted - 2012.08.07 11:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
I would advocate a simple K(Kills)/A(Assists)/D(Death) ((K/A/D)) ratio myself. Showing the assists would encourage teamwork over trying to stay alive for as long as possible to get the most kills you can without dying. |
Khun-Al
135
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Posted - 2012.08.07 11:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Oswald Banecroft II wrote:I would advocate a simple K(Kills)/A(Assists)/D(Death) ((K/A/D)) ratio myself. Showing the assists would encourage teamwork over trying to stay alive for as long as possible to get the most kills you can without dying.
Then logitics is still not counted and this is why a PDR would be good. |
Oswald Banecroft II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 11:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Khun-Al wrote:Oswald Banecroft II wrote:I would advocate a simple K(Kills)/A(Assists)/D(Death) ((K/A/D)) ratio myself. Showing the assists would encourage teamwork over trying to stay alive for as long as possible to get the most kills you can without dying. Then logitics is still not counted and this is why a PDR would be good. Hmm, good point. Could give Logi assists when they heal someone and that someone goes on to kill someone else?
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Kincate
Algintal Core Gallente Federation
27
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Posted - 2012.08.07 12:38:00 -
[14] - Quote
+1 on the general idea. Using ISK might be more prudent but anything would be better than a simple K/D ratio. |
Oswald Banecroft II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 12:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oswald Banecroft II wrote:Khun-Al wrote:Oswald Banecroft II wrote:I would advocate a simple K(Kills)/A(Assists)/D(Death) ((K/A/D)) ratio myself. Showing the assists would encourage teamwork over trying to stay alive for as long as possible to get the most kills you can without dying. Then logitics is still not counted and this is why a PDR would be good. Hmm, good point. Could give Logi assists when they heal someone and that someone goes on to kill someone else? Heck, could even just give them an assist for healing someone who has X amount damage... Provided that damage came from an enemy.
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Khun-Al
135
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Posted - 2012.08.07 13:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Oswald Banecroft II wrote:Oswald Banecroft II wrote:Khun-Al wrote:Oswald Banecroft II wrote:I would advocate a simple K(Kills)/A(Assists)/D(Death) ((K/A/D)) ratio myself. Showing the assists would encourage teamwork over trying to stay alive for as long as possible to get the most kills you can without dying. Then logitics is still not counted and this is why a PDR would be good. Hmm, good point. Could give Logi assists when they heal someone and that someone goes on to kill someone else? Heck, could even just give them an assist for healing someone who has X amount damage... Provided that damage came from an enemy.
Why so complicated. Just a positive/negative ratio like I wrote above. |
Oswald Banecroft II
Zumari Force Projection Caldari State
10
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 14:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Khun-Al wrote:Oswald Banecroft II wrote:Oswald Banecroft II wrote:Khun-Al wrote:Oswald Banecroft II wrote:I would advocate a simple K(Kills)/A(Assists)/D(Death) ((K/A/D)) ratio myself. Showing the assists would encourage teamwork over trying to stay alive for as long as possible to get the most kills you can without dying. Then logitics is still not counted and this is why a PDR would be good. Hmm, good point. Could give Logi assists when they heal someone and that someone goes on to kill someone else? Heck, could even just give them an assist for healing someone who has X amount damage... Provided that damage came from an enemy. Why so complicated. Just a positive/negative ratio like I wrote above. It isn't complicated. But why? People like to see how many kills they get, removing that just so Logi guys can feel some happiness is a little silly and one sided. This way, everyone knows people were helping out their team, and in more ways than just one. *shrugs* |
Sebastian Amlacher
13
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Posted - 2012.08.07 14:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
Maybe it could be just a ratio made out of kills, the amount of point earnings except of kills and deaths. Just simple |
Khun-Al
135
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Posted - 2012.08.07 15:08:00 -
[19] - Quote
Sebastian Amlacher wrote:Maybe it could be just a ratio made out of kills, the amount of point earnings except of kills and deaths. Just simple
This is a good idea too and would be easy to program. |
Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 17:46:00 -
[20] - Quote
In response to putting ISK in the mix, I say that the stats for each match, and in your character info could include ISK lost in a match (a sum of the market values of everything you lost in the match).
A summary of the ISK you made (contract reward, salvage when added, etc)
Then you can see a profitability profile by showing ISK lost vs ISK gained.
If you want to measure that in relation to PDR, then just take your PDR and divide by your ISK lost. That would give you the ratio of (Points per death) per ISK.
IF you care. |
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SGT Garrisson
On The Brink
60
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Posted - 2012.08.07 18:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
i like the idea of PDR but like some one said some peeps like to see the KDR
so instead of removing the KDR leave it and just add the PDR system the OP suggests in another column this way everyones happy
clicking on the PDR brings up the breakdown of how those points was erned (think this was mentioned by the OP too)
id would like to see how meny hacks assists i get per match or atleast how i got the majoity of the sp i made |
Traynor Youngs
Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire
287
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 18:04:00 -
[22] - Quote
SGT Garrisson wrote:i like the idea of PDR but like some one said some peeps like to see the KDR
so instead of removing the KDR leave it and just add the PDR system the OP suggests in another column this way everyones happy
clicking on the PDR brings up the breakdown of how those points was erned (think this was mentioned by the OP too)
id would like to see how meny hacks assists i get per match or atleast how i got the majoity of the sp i made
Like I said in the OP, allow the PDR to be filtered by type, then you can show just the points due to kills, and thats your KDRx50.
People can still see it. |
Khun-Al
135
|
Posted - 2012.08.07 18:18:00 -
[23] - Quote
The first thing that has to be introduce for such things is that the screen lasts longer. |
testguy242
44
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Posted - 2012.08.07 18:19:00 -
[24] - Quote
Losing money with every death should be enough of a penalty for dying.
Just show the points and drop the number of deaths completely. |
Khun-Al
135
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Posted - 2012.08.07 18:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
After a game the ranking with PDR is enough but in the statistic of a player there should be Kills, Assist, Hacks, Deaths etc. listed. |
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