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Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.30 23:14:00 - [1] - Quote Damage grows faster than health and has a higher ceiling. So skill up is in fact the answer. Prototype vs prototype fights end faster than militia vs militia.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.30 23:19:00 - [2] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: sorry, but it doesnt work that way.....if you wanna move faster mod up or go with a lighter dropsuit...dont like getting splashed to death? wear a walking tank..... whether the game needs an overall change to movement speed or not, i think CCP has found a sweet spot and it shouldnt be changed. Heavies arent supposed to be sprinters. I actually appreciate what they have done with heavies moving slower while charging forge guns. I say that being a forge gun user. it just makes sense. Would like the charge indicator back tho. How ya gonna feel when we get EW and someone throws a webifier at you and you suddenly cant move and get absolutely buttraped by some guy lol. itll probably happen to all of us sooner or later You are looking at it from a tank drivers perspective though. How it will benefit you. Not how the game mechanics will effect the success of the game. um...no im not....read the post you just quoted. In addition, you dont have to walk around on the ground 100% of the time to know how these mechanics work. No one starts out being a tank driver..... I did... militia tanks may be weak, but if played smart you can kill marauders with them. Granted that is a taller order than using a militia dropsuit to drop a prototype, but still I've done it.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.30 23:28:00 - [3] - Quote Heavy suit speed boost = LAV
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.30 23:37:00 - [4] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: In replication redlining was virtually nonexistent. (there were a few isolated occasions where it did happen, but that was one side might have been stacked with good players. Replication was fast and very in your face in terms of action. Tears started flowing on the forums that people were moving too fast and nobody would stay still so a care bear could get a kill. Generally speaking eveybody liked the strafing speeds because it gave the game identity and was different from every other game on the market that caters to ADS play. CareBears claimed DUST was supposed to be this "tactical" team based shooter almost akin to something you would find in a SOCOM trailer. E3 build comes gameplay is slowed down people can't strafe as well as they could last build. So what happens? Redlining happens. People quit out of games or resort to sniping behind the redline. Matches are one sided and this game becomes boring. Redlining happens because Plateau snowballs to hell in the first 60 seconds and despite militia drop uplinks, somehow they get left with one spawn, and it is a very crappy spawn. It isn't the new speed, which is virtually identical except for heavies.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 00:26:00 - [5] - Quote If you can create "virtual cover" just by wagging back and forth on the left thumbstick, then 90% of the map design is just backdrop for your "elite'" gunfights. We have mixed arms and cover, and sprint mods. You are SIGNIFICANTLY more stable from a nearly immobile stance, but no prone. This means they want good mobility between fights, but you shouldn't be dodging bullets unless you are scout vs heavy. And even then one mistake and the scout is spaghetti. You don't have to like it, but crossing open terrain is supposed to be very dangerous. That is why the defender spawn in Plateau is SO bad - completely open without cover.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 00:36:00 - [6] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Omnipotent lilmamaj wrote: Higher strafe speed is a necessity. Just like having a gun or having a HUD. not necessarily that is pure opinion. maybe CCP wants low strafe speed as a fundamental game mechanic I wouldn't see why they would want that though. Its not really not a good formula for a high health fps imo. Watch the E3 trailer. The strafe speed is much higher. I am actually quite confident that they just lowered the strafe speeds until they fix hit detection. I guess we will have to wait and see. High health is to allow you to push through an entrenched enemy so we don't have WW1 style gameplay.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 00:46:00 - [7] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: If you can create "virtual cover" just by wagging back and forth on the left thumbstick, then 90% of the map design is just backdrop for your "elite'" gunfights. We have mixed arms and cover, and sprint mods. You are SIGNIFICANTLY more stable from a nearly immobile stance, but no prone. This means they want good mobility between fights, but you shouldn't be dodging bullets unless you are scout vs heavy. And even then one mistake and the scout is spaghetti. You don't have to like it, but crossing open terrain is supposed to be very dangerous. That is why the defender spawn in Plateau is SO bad - completely open without cover. nice post, its hard to understand why people complain about strafing speed when any good soldier would laugh at you trying to strafe back and forth in a gunfight instead of using cover....Realize that maybe the way you play is not the most efficient and that the realism CCP is striving for might bite you in the ass a lil bit Realism arguments are negated since we are playing a scifi shooter with regenerating shield, lasers, and armor. When it comes to videogames gameplay trumps realism unless you are looking for authenticity. If CCP was looking for realism when I shoot at the treads on a tank after a certain damage threshold it should become immobile and even inoperable. Or when I drop gets shot in one of the thrusters it loses handling. Shielding is cover in this game. Slower game speeds has promoted the pile of crap that has been the E3 build of this game. You fundamentally don't understand* FPS games that aren't about circle strafing it seems. *understand as in comprehend the playstyle and those who enjoy it Shields are for people who don't take damage often or a warning layer for beefier guys to turn and engage a threat. Cover is for cover.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 01:30:00 - [8] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: MAG COD and BF aren't circle strafers buddy. They are primarily ADS shooters. Shields are cover in this game. If it wasn't for shields i guarantee people wouldn't run across the map without worrying about getting blown up. ADS shooter and circle strafing might as well be the same thing. And having played all three, I can safely say it doesn't take MORE skill to be good at those. At best it is just different skills. Shields are only a way to bridge cover. They don't provide any in their own right.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 01:46:00 - [9] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: >>>>ADS shooter and circle strafing might as well be the same thing. I'm sorry but I am going to have trouble taking anything else you say after that seriously. I'm done here Noc Tempre lost Oh yes, I bow down before your magnificence. I have seen the error of my ways. CLEARLY there is a huge gulf between circling each other holding L1 and not.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 16:50:00 - [10] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Iceyburnz wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Make this into a real strafe and shoot fps. What we are playing now just feels to slow and bulky. The replication build was exactly this. But people complained because its wasn't "fast" enough. The result is what we have today. Ironically many of the people who complained left anyway. IMHO the sights and hip fire in Replication for assault rifles was about right. E3 build totally sucks. In addition to what's been said above. The E3 build and it's slower gameplay has lead to a defensive style of play which favors camping and promotes redlining. Last build redlining could happen and it was much worse than what we have now considering you could basically sit right on top of people as they spawn into the game. However though it wasn't prevalent because the gameplay was fast enough that matches could end up in a real struggle. So you are complaining basically that because it is easier to kill what you are actually aiming at with the improved (still not fixed) hit detection is a bad thing? Is that what I'm really reading? You seem to attribute no credit to the insanely open map. In case you forgot, it was trivially easy to box attackers into the craterlake spawn and butcher them mercilessly there, and that was back when dropships couldn't dodge swarms and no militia uplinks. I think you have a bad memory of last build, but saying the game is worse off due to improved hit detection simply blows my mind.

Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 17:03:00 - [11] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: xprotoman23 wrote: Iceyburnz wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Make this into a real strafe and shoot fps. What we are playing now just feels to slow and bulky. The replication build was exactly this. But people complained because its wasn't "fast" enough. The result is what we have today. Ironically many of the people who complained left anyway. IMHO the sights and hip fire in Replication for assault rifles was about right. E3 build totally sucks. In addition to what's been said above. The E3 build and it's slower gameplay has lead to a defensive style of play which favors camping and promotes redlining. Last build redlining could happen and it was much worse than what we have now considering you could basically sit right on top of people as they spawn into the game. However though it wasn't prevalent because the gameplay was fast enough that matches could end up in a real struggle. So you are complaining basically that because it is easier to kill what you are actually aiming at with the improved (still not fixed) hit detection is a bad thing? Is that what I'm really reading? You seem to attribute no credit to the insanely open map. In case you forgot, it was trivially easy to box attackers into the craterlake spawn and butcher them mercilessly there, and that was back when dropships couldn't dodge swarms and no militia uplinks. I think you have a bad memory of last build, but saying the game is worse off due to improved hit detection simply blows my mind. You're posts aren't taken seriously after you said ADS and circle strafing were the same thing. Please leave this thread kind sir cause you lost. Specifically, I said that dodging bullets in a gunfight, even if it is ADS, is the same problem. You don't have to like my semantics, and I'll grant you the sentence was poorly structured, but if you think that means you "won" the right to ignore me you are sorely mistaken. You always had the right to ignorantly ignore my statements, but that doesn't make you correct or superior. You are still asking for the ability to dodge bullets. I counter that is not the only way to make a game enjoyable, and in fact to your dismay may make the game less enjoyable for more people than it improves it for.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.07.31 19:56:00 - [12] - Quote Lurchasaurus wrote: ima fix my earlier post by saying obviously you can run while ADS, but it sure wont be accurate. Im a proud owner of 17 firearms and i can tell you you dont accurately shoot down the sight while running. Unless your a freaking spec ops killing machine. Which, just to be argumentative at this point, DUST mercs are such freaking spec ops killing machines. I'm personally a fan of the Beretta 92-FS. One of these days I hope to hunt down a centurion for carry.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.01 19:18:00 - [13] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Corban Lahnder wrote: I hate to say this but the OP is trying to turn dust into something its not. I adjusted my play style to the current as you put it "Bulky strafe mechanics" and you know what I noticed. I was fighting the way real troops do. Moving forward cautiously. Moving from cover to cover. Trying to check the map for intel. Moving with allies. No one is running around the map pwning people with luck based spray and pray dodging. And personally I prefer it that way. Slower paced gives people a chance to strategize instead of: "OH I dodged more you loose!" I wish I had a more constructive way of defending the current movement controls but that about sums up my feelings. The OP continues to say the same thing over and over again: I dont prefer the current movement mechanics I want them to be faster paced." Thats a request and an opinion not an argument. Without faster strafing speeds KB+M players are going to dominate DS3 users. Your logic is flawed. The number one benefit of KBM is faster response while retaining accuracy and precision. Slowing things down is actually diminishing this advantage. I just don't understand where your logic is coming from, please break it down instead of the FUD.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.01 23:04:00 - [14] - Quote This thread is full of laughs. We get more frames and better hit detection and that somehow ruined the game. I think you are just mad that you can't riverdance through bullets anymore and thus are promoting it as skill. As much as you chose to ignore it, the positioning at the start of the fight should be more important that your ability to weave through bullets. Breaking down your argument, cover is merely something pretty between fights, since "good" games will let you dodge and strafe to equal terms before the disadvantageous position you've put yourself in asserts a penalty to you. EVE is famous for the butterfly effect. If you win handily a great gunfight but that leaves you in the middle of a street, a tank/sniper/"noobs" behind cover will level your ass and no game that awards real skill would prevent that.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.01 23:44:00 - [15] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: look, if you go at a Corp battle like COD, you probably are gonna be poor very fast. CCP knows tho that not everyone is into the whole complex battlefield thing, so they have something just for you. Its called the Gladiator Arena and you can fight and win completely based on your skills. People will bet on you and you will be well known if you are good. I for one know a bunch of guys ima bet on and ill make a killing. Those who feel like they are gods among men in the FPS realm can have a chance to be just that. OR we just buff lateral movement and gun game becomes more about skill. The whole sandbox can have a fair chance of killing each other in gun fights. As opposed to skill points being the deciding factor because gun fights are so slow there is pretty much nothing you can do but hold R1 and hope you have more SP then the person on the other end. On the whole ADS/circle strafe debacle, the point was the same problem, not the same exact damn thing. But we ignore context and careful word choice at the same time crucifying minor gaffs that could be explained better. How balanced... In any case, raising your health is cheaper on your fittings than raising your gun level. Try running a complex tank with no fitting mods and an advanced gun. Then you buy an extra second to turn around and use your better aim to get headshots, which is significantly more dps than triple damage mods and prototype guns. I am not saying the game is perfect, I am saying your reasons for changing it don't hold water.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.02 05:07:00 - [16] - Quote Mike Gunnzito wrote: Lurchasaurus wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: This thread is full of laughs. We get more frames and better hit detection and that somehow ruined the game. I think you are just mad that you can't riverdance through bullets anymore and thus are promoting it as skill. As much as you chose to ignore it, the positioning at the start of the fight should be more important that your ability to weave through bullets. Breaking down your argument, cover is merely something pretty between fights, since "good" games will let you dodge and strafe to equal terms before the disadvantageous position you've put yourself in asserts a penalty to you. EVE is famous for the butterfly effect. If you win handily a great gunfight but that leaves you in the middle of a street, a tank/sniper/"noobs" behind cover will level your ass and no game that awards real skill would prevent that. OH MY GOD YES. they know about FPS's, ill give them that, but they refuse to accept that Dust will have a unique playstyle that might force them to play a little differently. Here's the disconnect. Crimson and crew want you to understand that their talking about FPS mechanics at the most fundamental level. Increase movement speed, so that there is more involvement on the 1v1 level... They want to be able to recover from incoming fire and retaliate. Not, "oh I see you first, I'll shoot 3 bullets into you, without you being able to move much, and win" IMO, the "different type of game" argument that Lurch and Noc are mentioning doesn't need to mean slow movement speed/tactical gameplay/etc. The "tactical" gameplay shouldn't be on the 1v1 level, but more on the macro level. Tactical gameplay mean the entire team playing with strategy and/or tactics. This can still be done, giving Dust it's "different" gameplay, while maintaining the type of FPS that Crimson (and others of us) want. I understand what they want. I merely reject their conclusions on what it will achieve. 1) Vs KBM - I disagree strongly, to the point I am convinced this is a scare tactic line that hasn't actually been thought about at all. Slower speeds mean less importance on moving your cursor extremely fast which translates into a smaller benefit to less of an imbalance. 2) Reward Skill - I counter there are two kinds of skill being discusses here, and confusing them is leading to a lot of problems. Yes there is skill to reflexes and gunplay and other split-second decisions. But it is not the ONLY skill that matters. I don't think it improves gameplay if the guy with more gun skill will be able to turn around and kill the guy with the stronger position (no matter how he got it, even if it was luck or "being cheap"). I understand the other argument, I just don't accept it. So yes, my definition of rewarding intelligent play means I believe the guy shooting from behind should force the gungame guy to dive for cover before attempting to engage. If he does successfully get around that corner, the decision should be between reversing the trap, dragging it out until you have recovered shields, or finding allies to outnumber. At no point do I see the ability to skip all those steps by turning around and juking to victory adding more room for different strategies. In fact, in my opinion, it seems to neutralize most strategies. DUST is clearly trying to cater to the cerebral shooter. While both twitch based play and tactics based play should cohabitate, a decision about who wins in the extreme match up of good gun skills vs good tactics is going to be controversial to the side that the game punishes. So yes, there are games, great games, that will let good skills win the vast majority of their fights irregardless of the "opening", but at the time, I don't think that is DUST. On a side note: DUST business strategy clearly wants everyone to be going through lots and lots of clones and equipment to make AUR items appear more attractive while also making even an attempt at pay to win skyrocket into the hundreds of dollars a month - a level where it would be absurd to believe large numbers of people will be able to influence or unbalance the game this way.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.02 05:45:00 - [17] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: 2). Reward camping-There are two kinds of skill. You want to reward the one that takes less. Yeah I gotcha. Reward people that camp in corners and head glitch because they don't have the gun game to take on the person that is better then them at shooting/strafing. Really so you want defensive campy game play to trump actual skill. I want you to go play CoD for 8 hours and you will see exactly whats wrong with that statement. Have you ever played CoD? Lots of tactical gameplay and camping/positioning. You would love it. It is a problem in CoD because no matter how good you play, there is no way to control the map. There are no lines of battle, only random chaos from any direction at any time, which is why that game would benefit from skill allowing dodging of bullets. I HATE COD. Nothing but campers and random deaths galore. DUST plays nothing like that at the moments, with the exception of the broken defense spawn on plateau, which is easily avoided, albeit very hard to break. The fact that you are saying one kind of "true skill" is making it very clear you have no idea what you're on about. Balance is moot, you just want to buff scissors since that's the only thing you bring to the table.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.02 06:31:00 - [18] - Quote Crimson MoonV wrote: testguy242 wrote: In actual battles, money and numbers will be the most important issue. I don't think how you want 1v1 to play out really matters. Plus I think tactics should be emphasized over twitch reflexes. There are plenty of other FPSes that emphasize individual skill and epeen. If you want duels that pit your twitch reflex "skill" directly against someone else's, maybe you should play one of them. I think slower movement speed is better because it makes tactics, cover use, and combined arms (ie: vehicles, orbital strikes, etc) more important. If you are moving around out of cover in front of the enemy, you should die. If you want to attack an defending enemy, you should be forced to use flanking, vehicle support, artillery, orbital strikes or whatever instead of just being able to strafe faster than they can aim. I do think that fast "speed-tanking" fittings should be possible, but they should require lots of specialization and be otherwise balanced. Tactics are emphasized more then skill. Way more atm. There needs to be a good meduim. Not just camping and heaglitching gets me kill HERP A DERP. Headglitching is a pretty fancy word for "using cover". I've yet to see any instance of shooting through walls at while only exposing the head. Heavies have an issue with shooting at the same height as an AR, but that's merely disorienting as a bug, not game-breaking.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.02 06:51:00 - [19] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: Noc Tempre wrote: Crimson MoonV wrote: testguy242 wrote: In actual battles, money and numbers will be the most important issue. I don't think how you want 1v1 to play out really matters. Plus I think tactics should be emphasized over twitch reflexes. There are plenty of other FPSes that emphasize individual skill and epeen. If you want duels that pit your twitch reflex "skill" directly against someone else's, maybe you should play one of them. I think slower movement speed is better because it makes tactics, cover use, and combined arms (ie: vehicles, orbital strikes, etc) more important. If you are moving around out of cover in front of the enemy, you should die. If you want to attack an defending enemy, you should be forced to use flanking, vehicle support, artillery, orbital strikes or whatever instead of just being able to strafe faster than they can aim. I do think that fast "speed-tanking" fittings should be possible, but they should require lots of specialization and be otherwise balanced. Tactics are emphasized more then skill. Way more atm. There needs to be a good meduim. Not just camping and heaglitching gets me kill HERP A DERP. Headglitching is a pretty fancy word for "using cover". I've yet to see any instance of shooting through walls at while only exposing the head. Heavies have an issue with shooting at the same height as an AR, but that's merely disorienting as a bug, not game-breaking. Head glitching is not shooting through walls. Its hiding behind a crate or cover with only your head exposed and killing people. I have seen plenty of people "using cover" and just popping their head out. Especially on communication. Please tell me more about how there is no map control in CoD. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEIigJUlw-0&feature=related Proving my point. Smart use of angles is not a glitch. The only true headglitch is where you can clip through a wall and truly only show the head. Seems like you just have a fundamental issue with cover in a shooting game.
Noc Tempre Imperfects Negative-Feedback 1170	Posted - 2012.08.03 20:59:00 - [20] - Quote xprotoman23 wrote: All vehicles in this game should function similar to battlefield in the sense that once it reaches a certain damage threshold it becomes disable/immobile. It would add some skill to vehicle based gameplay rather than tanking damage and throwing on remote reps when things get tough. Already in game, once you get through the armor.