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Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots
RISE of LEGION
416
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Posted - 2012.07.22 19:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
as is, the low slots feel pretty weak sauce. shield extenders have no specific penalty, why do armor plates need to reduce movement speed?
i understand that armor plates give more armor than shield extenders give shield, but 1 point of shield is more valuable than 1 point of armor by virtue of it automatically recharging.
alternately, the armor bonus could be reduced if the movement speed penalty went away. 30 for a standard, 50 for an advanced, and 80 for a complex?
i mean really, every module already has the built in penalty of not being some other module, right? why are armor plates the only thing that has an extra penalty? |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots
RISE of LEGION
416
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 20:40:00 -
[2] - Quote
it's impossible to tell in dust atm, but in eve armor is generally not really MORE damage resistant, it just has the opposite resistances and weakness' of shields.
in eve different weapons and ammo types can deal different types of damage. electromagnetic, thermal, kinetic, and explosive. or often a mix of different types.
shields are generally very resistant to explosives, while very weak to electromagnetics. armor being the opposite, highly resistant to EM, but very weak to explosive. the same is true of thermal and kinetic damage, though less extreme.
we can't see resistance stats or damage types in dust, but if it works like eve then no, armor is not significantly more resistant to damage. |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots
RISE of LEGION
416
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 20:41:00 -
[3] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:The easy answer is this.
More armour means more weight. More weight means slower movement.
There really isn't much more to it.
yes, but from a BALANCE perspective... why? i get the "excuse" but i don't see the REASON. you see what i'm saying? |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots
RISE of LEGION
416
|
Posted - 2012.07.22 22:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Grit Breather wrote:There was a post bouncing around the other day. It filled in some gaps I had about shields and armour. I can't find it right now (ok, I'm lazy and won't even look...) but the essence is as follows.
Shields, due to their recharge rate are good at tanking prolonged lower DPS. Armour is good a tanking high DPS for a short time.
Armour is also able to be modded to be more resistant to damange in general and has the trade-off of being slower to regenerate.
It's basically a matter of planning what type of damage you're going to sustain.
There is a LOT of planning in Dust/EVE. Learn to live with it. The more you know and plan, the better you'll do.
i'd like to see this post, because i don't think you are conveying it quite right. shields don't regenerate until you stop taking damage for a couple seconds. so in dust they cannot tank any level of CONSTANT dps. (in EVE it's different, shields are ALWAYS regenerating, though for most ships, slowly. there are exceptions however and some pilots do bank on that regeneration stat, buffing it and buffing it into something called a "passive tank" the drake is a good example of a common passive tank ship.)
also, in dust at the moment, there is no difference in resistance modules between shields and armor. they give the same blanket effect. we also don't yet know how large damage types play in, or where the starting resistances are for armor and shields. or even to what extent damage types are implemented. also there are no damage resistance modules for dropsuits at ALL. only vehicles.
even what damage types different weapons deal is still iffy. i mean we can make some educated guesses.
- ARs are supposed to be blasters. in eve all blasters deal a mix of thermal and kinetic damage, with the ratio varying by ammo type.
- SMGs are minmatar projectile weapons, and in eve projectiles weapons are capable of dealing ANY damage type. the only constant is that they always do at least a small portion of their damage as kinetic.
- mass drivers are probably dealing explosive damage because... they explode.. but a direct hit is likely to include a large portion of kinetic damage as well.
- sniper rifles are railguns, railguns also always deal kinetic and thermal, but again how much of each varies by ammo type.
-swarm launchers are missiles, in eve missiles can deal any damage type, but only ever 1 type per missile. i'm gonna guess kinetic in dust because they have strong direct damage and weak splash damage.
- i believe the description for scrambler pistols refers to them as lasers, lasers in eve always deal EM damage and most ammo types add some mix of thermal.
but even if you are completely correct, you say the tradeoff for armor is that it is slower to regenerate. i agree with you. so why does it also lower movement speed?
it seems to me like armor and shields "were" moderately well balanced. shields being better for multiple skirmishes in rapid succesion thanks to natural recharge, armor better for single drawn out gun fights thanks to a deeper buffer. but then they just tacked on a mobility penalty? "yes yes these 2 things are quite fairly balanced. lets nerf one!"? |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots
RISE of LEGION
416
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 07:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Arpentis wrote:
Exactly and they chose to go the more realistic route and have the extra armor come with a decrease in speed.
Equivalent Exchange.
i would argue that the equivelant exchange on armor is that it doesn't recharge.
alternately, what is the equivelant exchange for a shield extender? |
Buzzwords
Deadly Blue Dots
RISE of LEGION
416
|
Posted - 2012.07.23 08:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iron Wolf Saber wrote:Shields would have the penalty of being much harder to hide on scanners and tac net as well as more suspectable to aoe damage and electronic warfares if it where to follow eve online's footprints.
while this relies REALLY heavily on stuff not implemented, or at least not fully implemented yet. it does raise an interesting point.
i assume you are reffering to signature radius?
in eve, shield extenders increase signature radius. that is bad.
but in dust, they do not. but maybe they just don't "yet" or maybe they do and they don't show it in the stats page.
so this COULD be a way ccp intends to balance shield tanking vs armor tanking in the future. but i'd still like to disect that.
in eve, increased signature radius makes you easier to lock up (most weapons need to be locked to fire in eve) and makes you easier to hit in that your signature radius is compared against an enemy turrets target resolution. if your smaller he automatically misses a % of shots relative to how much smaller.
but in dust... nothing locks onto dropsuits? though this could play into the detection system? it's a difficult connection to make since the only stealth thing eve has is cloaking, and if you're cloaked you are ALL the way stealthy. there are no levels of it, it's an on/off thing. even if people KNOW you're there, they can't do **** about it.
then how would you replicate the signature radius VS target resolution comparison? increaing the hitboxes of the dropsuit?
as the game stands now, i still think armor tanking is needlessly gimp relative to shields. and until CCP weighs in on what they intend to do, we can only really discuss as it stand now. we can't say something is balanced because we imagined the counter, right?
but signature radius as the counter to shields does have precedent. |
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