DUST Search - Light Assault Vehicles

Leovarian L Lavitz wrote:

I have to say that I LOVE the LAV controls. At first I didn't like them, but once I put the nanofibers and shield resist/extend on my ride I was rocking it. Took a bit to get used to it, but I love dodging swarms by 180ing around walls and hearing them slam into my new barricade. I learned that the best course of action when 180ing is to simply swing the stick and keep going in whatever direction your momentum is carrying you until you can reorient yourself.

I might be zipping along at 100mph, then notice a swarm of missiles chasing me (my gunner would say something if I had one), and then snap around one of the main bunker buildings into a 360, and keep going in reverse to get a visual on the missiles without losing a beat. Full throttle reverse over a dune and hear the satisfying boom boom babooom of the missiles hitting the dune top as I set off for another run.

Additionally, the break is a miracle worker once you understand it.

EDIT:
Getting passengers is easier if you use the (S) shield transporter. Give it a try. xD

EDIT AGAIN:
Bob and weave works too, keeping your gunner and passengers alive is a key job of the driver. If you are getting shot at, make an attempt to make your LAV zig-zag to keep your guys from being sniped/instagibbed and killed by ARs. If all else, 180 into reverse and use the front of your LAV to protect them as you disengage.

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Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.07.17 04:16:00 - [1] - Quote Each weekend I pick something that I want to test and I do that one thing almost to the point of silliness. This weekend's mission was to see if LAVs are viable in an assault role as currently designed or if they're a bust. I've done a good deal of research, a variety of fittings, and most importantly: played the LAV in both maps in both modes. Understanding the Role By their nature LAVs are not designed to withstand sustained fire, nor are they designed to put out heavy amounts of damage. A Light Assault Vehicle is designed for exactly two roles: rapid force deployment and mobile fire support. It's amazing to me that more people don't get in LAVs in Skirmish because they are the fastest method of moving a force from the entry spawn to the rear-guard CRUs. Ambush finds itself in a slightly more awkward position because the main advantage that LAVs have is that they are ultra maneuverable and Ambush does not exactly reward a target that makes itself readily available over and over again. Granted, it's more likely that someone is going to try and take you out with a Swarm Launcher in Ambush which extends your life tenfold (as an expression) because missile collision on the ground is far more likely than it is in the air. Caveat It's important to remember and understand that all of this testing was done in the Assault capacity of the LAV. I have not tested logistics yet, and I don't see a reason to do so until Logistics are worth pursuing. The current structure of the game does not allow bonded teams, and until it does, Logistics LAVs (hereafter called Ambulances) are not worth it because they don't actually fulfill a role other than being an elaborate fireworks display. Impressions in fitting the LAV Depending on which faction you decide you want to run (Caldari v. Gallente) you will immediately find that there simply isn't much versatility in how to fit your new Death Race car. The PG / CPU setup pretty much restricts you to an Extender / Plates, Repairer / Re-charger or Booster / Hardner, a Weapon, and your choice of a Diagnostic System or nanofibre structure. One of the things that really struck me in the design of DUST is that the dropsuits are diverse enough and the items are pretty well spread-out that you have a large enough variety of fittings to really specialize in something and feel... well... special. This is not the case with LAVs as you don't really get a lot of flexibility; truly it feels like the designers had a specific layout in mind when they set everything up for the Beta. I don't know if this is a design issue or a beta issue but in either case it definitely affected my first impression on this particular class of vehicular death machine. Impressions in Piloting a LAV I'm torn between exalting in the fun of driving these puppies or screaming loud obscenities at how the handling controls need to be heavily altered. On one hand it's very fun to fishtail in the sands of plateau and do 180s while the Gunner tracks targets; however, doing those 180s as a necessity because the control scheme sucks takes the fun away from this. Solely on the controls, this has been done in a multitude of games before DUST and I'm unsure why we're trying to reinvent the wheel. Left Stick controls the wheels, Right Stick controls the camera angle, R1 accelerates, L1 brakes (hold for reverse while either moving in a negative direction or holding still), Square sounds the Horn (for whatever reason... maybe honking at people that don't get the message to get in/out), R2 controls the activated modules, Triangle to switch positions. (As an aside: why even allow position switching in LAVs? Think about it.) It feels very clunky driving these Jeeps of Doom around but I'm not sure whether or not the issue is the control design, the vehicle design, physics handling, or terrain design. Too many times I've been moving at minimum speed, hit a minor bump, and went FLYING 12 feet into the air only to tip forward and land nose first in the sand. JeepFrog is fun to play, but not very good when it comes to capturing objectives and winning the game. Gunning from an LAV I don't think that this could have been designed any worse. I understand that the idea of EVE / DUST is supposed to be skill > everything. I myself am a capsuleer veteran and can relate to this mentality, but at the same time, there's technology that is in place TODAY which aids in the tracking of positions on a moving object. If I point my reticle at anything while the LAV is moving then my projectile should go THERE. Not to the right or left of that object, but AT THAT OBJECT. At the same time, if I'm pointing at something and the LAV turns suddenly the turret SHOULD NOT. It's called Gyroscopic Stabilization or a Swing-base. I'm pretty sure that something designed in the 1960s and 70s could make an appearance in the very distant future. Tracking computers exist on star ships and an Interceptor isn't that much larger than an LAV (approximately 1.5x its size). Most of an interceptor's space is taken up by engines and propulsion control which must be large for the large amount of thrust generated. A tracking computer should be approximately the size of a desktop computer and I'm fairly sure that we could put one of those on a DoomJeep(TM). On the subject of tracking computers, anyone who's driven an LAV can tell you that trying to get a passenger (let alone a gunner) is a lesson in frustration. I can see no viable reason that a MANNED VEHICLE couldn't be made to shoot at targets as designated by the pilot at a rate slower than a human gunner could fire. Blaster and missile installations already do it at a rate that seems to be pretty fair, why not have passive control on turrets for LAVs, Tanks, and Dropships? Make it a module and require skills. Viola, now if you're piloting and you can't get a gunner, you're still useful outside of the role of a missile.
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.07.17 04:16:00 - [2] - Quote Gunning continued Missiles, Blasters, and Railguns are terrible when it comes to handling their fire. None of these weapons have any handling better because the turret tracking is the problem, not the projectile handling. Currently, I feel very strongly that having a dedicated LAV pilot on your team is not an asset but a very large liability. Not only is the pilot not using his gun to kill enemies, but he's also using a vehicle slot that could be filled by a Tank of Dropship. These turrets need to be fixed in order for the Light Assault Vehicle to be viable in a mobile combat role. Being shot at in an LAV Small arms fire including heavy machine guns do basically crap against a non-militia vehicle and LAVs are not excluded from this rule. This makes me very glad because I would be pissed off if my LAV fit died to pistol fire and assault rifle spam. There is a downside to driving an LAV and it is called Tanks. Large Turret fire absolutely destroys an LAV. There is no contest and nor should there be. Forge Guns make it pretty hard to stay in one position at once... your best bet is to continue using your speed and stay moving AS IT SHOULD BE. Do not take this as a negative comment. Taking damage in an LAV is, in my opinion, perfect. If I had to come up with a flaw for damage it would probably be that it doesn't feel real. If my LAV gets hit by a RAILGUN round, I'm pretty sure it should move. At present, you can stand behind an LAV and watch it get hit by a solid round moving at near light-speed, and it will sit immobile as though you tried to move a MAC truck with a baseball bat moving at high speed. This is a flaw and should probably be looked into. Impact On the subject of impacts - running into things needs to be slightly more forgiving. In the previous post I talked about hitting a minor bump and going 12 feet in the air. I did not tell you about barely touching an incline and having the LAV try to climb up walls. Tapping a wall, corner, or other protruding object can actually cause you to TIP OVER AT LOW SPEEDS. These are not high speed impacts, we're talking about trying to use the horrendous vehicle control system to move through the maze of boxes under the towers in plateau and flipping over because I hit the corner of a box with the side of the LAV on accident. Crashing into stuff should predictably damage your armor and structure... but shields? I do not believe so. Please reconsider this. I've run nearly half-speed into a tank that I couldn't see until it was too late (airborne) due to the render distance problem and been brought to 0% shields and 43% armor. Overall Opinion The LAV feels like it's a ******** Warthog's cousin. It's fun to drive but that's about it. While I'm perfectly content mowing people over by surprise with the LAV, I feel that the vehicle simply is not up to snuff when you compare it to the ability of Dropships to outmaneuver swarm missiles forever with an elliptical orbit or the HAV's ability to stay pretty mobile, repair themselves, and deal out truckloads of damage. Perhaps the LAV is a specialty vehicle. Maybe I'm doing it wrong... but at the same time it feels like there's a hole in the design somewhere that I've stepped into. When there's incentive to run, on foot, instead of jumping in a fast-mover transport then I think that something is missing. Perhaps a reward could be devised for utilizing the LAV to move from point to point and capture objectives. Could it be given it the option to deploy into a mobile stationary turret? What about a portable supply depot? These are things that I feel could be highly beneficial. Nothing quite like moving cover that refills your ammunition as a gunner lays down cover fire. There's my 2 ISK. I look forward to seeing DEV comments and the observations of my fellow mercs.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.07.17 05:07:00 - [3] - Quote Very well done, my good sir. I think I took a few whacks at you with my Forge, as there can't be but 3 people driving Sagas. I'd like to reinforce the gyroscopes idea for not just the LAV, but all vehicles, and the knockback... was run over twice because it shrugged off the sheer kinetic power of my Forge. Controls are also a yes, and maybe you can answer something for me? Of the two models, Gallente and Caldari, is there ANY benefit to the Gallente variant? It tanks in a way that cannot be repaired on its own, nor can it go as fast due to the armor weighing it down, or at least, that is how I understand it.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.07.17 05:27:00 - [4] - Quote I think LAVs need to have slight delay of crew protection (similar to the dropship possibly half as long) which allows its crew possibly disembark a heavily damaged LAV before it blows to make up for its thin skin, exiting crew would still get hurt but at least they survived whatever the heck hit them to death (unless they got driectly hit by it and it killed them first before the lav) They need to weigh the mofo down a bit too and massify it slightly to make those fishtails more satisfying and allow it to continue its course well after its been blown up and devoid of crew making it a possible torpedo of death. Speed is also a bit rediculous to drive safely then again driving controls are like what you said trying to skate on ice as it feels sometimes. Third person camera for gunners, passenger of the LAV needs a role such as Ewar operator or self gunner.
SoCal Ninja 260	Posted - 2012.07.17 05:58:00 - [5] - Quote Liked both posts with all three of my accounts. Way to go Norbar. This is something I was VERY interested in. It seems that the LAV is just not finding it's utility on the battlefield. Maybe that's in part to do with all the militia vehicles making it dirt cheap to call in tanks and dropships that make it hard to pilot an LAV. I would love if your idea of a mobile ammo supply point was implemented. An LAV able to give ammo back to it's team could make a much more useful tool. I also wish they'd give the option of removing the gun entirely and allowing for an additional passenger seat. If I want an LAV, than I want to haul ass and get a squad across the map and into a position before the enemy can even get a lock on. Another thing I wonder about is, why make it so easy to shoot out the players within the LAV? When I see a fully loaded LAV I go, "Oh goody I can kill all three" because they aren't protected like they should be. If I was a passenger in the LAV right side, and I wasn't allow to shoot than my head would be between my knees until I was in place.
Mitchman 514 36	Posted - 2012.07.17 07:35:00 - [6] - Quote Yeah, the LAV is pretty much undrivable right now.
Jack McReady 46	Posted - 2012.07.17 08:04:00 - [7] - Quote imho the guy in the nondriver seat should be able to fire his weapon aswell.
Avinash Decker BetaMax. 25	Posted - 2012.07.17 08:11:00 - [8] - Quote Tbh using the blaster on the Lav is so useless unless you are using it as a mobile gun platform for yourself . I think gunning should be similar to starhawk or here
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.07.17 12:52:00 - [9] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Very well done, my good sir. I think I took a few whacks at you with my Forge, as there can't be but 3 people driving Sagas. I'd like to reinforce the gyroscopes idea for not just the LAV, but all vehicles, and the knockback... was run over twice because it shrugged off the sheer kinetic power of my Forge. Controls are also a yes, and maybe you can answer something for me? Of the two models, Gallente and Caldari, is there ANY benefit to the Gallente variant? It tanks in a way that cannot be repaired on its own, nor can it go as fast due to the armor weighing it down, or at least, that is how I understand it. The Gallente variant has more weight to it and handles a little better, but it CAN repair itself with the automatic armor repairers. Armor also has a significantly higher observed resist rate and is thus more apt to actually getting hit. I personally liked the Saga more because shield tanking is better for dancing around in and out of the FoV of an enemy.
Zev Caldari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 94	Posted - 2012.07.17 16:36:00 - [10] - Quote I've driven both and I don't really see a mass difference of the Methana (Gallente one) being that much of an impact. It's supposed to give me a considerable amount of mass but I still go flying all the time (which is epic and hilarious, but not functional). What I hate is that you can shoot LAV passengers individually but not dropship passengers/gunners (not including splash damage on the dropship gunners, as far as I know you can't directly snipe them out like you can LAV gunners). I prefer the Methana over the Saga actually but it's just personal preference, I'd have to agree that the Saga has a bit more going for it (it can shield and speed tank at the same time, or shield tank + damage boost). The Methana would have a better tank if it could fit it, but like the OP says it seems all LAVs have a very specific fit in mind from the devs. If I could fit a DCU, energized adaptive plating, plate, and rep on the methana it'd have a beast tank (~35% dmg resists!); but CPU/PG just won't allow anything overly creative right now.

Knarf Black Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 397	Posted - 2012.07.17 17:04:00 - [11] - Quote Zev Caldari wrote: What I hate is that you can shoot LAV passengers individually but not dropship passengers/gunners (not including splash damage on the dropship gunners, as far as I know you can't directly snipe them out like you can LAV gunners). This is purely anecdotal on my part, but I think you can snipe the dropship gunners once the shield is down. (Though they don't usually have much armor, so why wouldn't you just try to blow it up at that point.) That's the way I think it should be, at least, for both LAVs and dropships. Shields should protect occupants as well, but once they're down everyone should be individually vulnerable.
Zero Harpuia Maverick Conflict Solutions 422	Posted - 2012.07.17 20:05:00 - [12] - Quote Knarf Black wrote: Zev Caldari wrote: What I hate is that you can shoot LAV passengers individually but not dropship passengers/gunners (not including splash damage on the dropship gunners, as far as I know you can't directly snipe them out like you can LAV gunners). This is purely anecdotal on my part, but I think you can snipe the dropship gunners once the shield is down. (Though they don't usually have much armor, so why wouldn't you just try to blow it up at that point.) That's the way I think it should be, at least, for both LAVs and dropships. Shields should protect occupants as well, but once they're down everyone should be individually vulnerable. Oh no, it's not even with the shield down. I've lost exactly three Myr kills due to accidentally sniping the gunner... with my Forge Gun.
Iron Wolf Saber BetaMax. 2867	Posted - 2012.07.17 20:55:00 - [13] - Quote I have to agree LAV controls need to be a bit more haloish. Those where spot on enjoyable to drive kill and passenger in. And a good Warthog driver/gunner could win against a tank.
Leovarian L Lavitz Tritan-Industries Legacy Rising 278	Posted - 2012.07.18 02:27:00 - [14] - Quote I have to say that I LOVE the LAV controls. At first I didn't like them, but once I put the nanofibers and shield resist/extend on my ride I was rocking it. Took a bit to get used to it, but I love dodging swarms by 180ing around walls and hearing them slam into my new barricade. I learned that the best course of action when 180ing is to simply swing the stick and keep going in whatever direction your momentum is carrying you until you can reorient yourself. I might be zipping along at 100mph, then notice a swarm of missiles chasing me (my gunner would say something if I had one), and then snap around one of the main bunker buildings into a 360, and keep going in reverse to get a visual on the missiles without losing a beat. Full throttle reverse over a dune and hear the satisfying boom boom babooom of the missiles hitting the dune top as I set off for another run. Additionally, the break is a miracle worker once you understand it. EDIT: Getting passengers is easier if you use the (S) shield transporter. Give it a try. xD EDIT AGAIN: Bob and weave works too, keeping your gunner and passengers alive is a key job of the driver. If you are getting shot at, make an attempt to make your LAV zig-zag to keep your guys from being sniped/instagibbed and killed by ARs. If all else, 180 into reverse and use the front of your LAV to protect them as you disengage.
Stile451 Red Star. 76	Posted - 2012.07.18 03:01:00 - [15] - Quote Zero Harpuia wrote: Oh no, it's not even with the shield down. I've lost exactly three Myr kills due to accidentally sniping the gunner... with my Forge Gun. You can snipe the gunners with a sniper rifle while the shields are up as well, it's a lot harder when they're moving but it can be done.
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.07.18 16:30:00 - [16] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: I have to say that I LOVE the LAV controls. At first I didn't like them, but once I put the nanofibers and shield resist/extend on my ride I was rocking it. Took a bit to get used to it, but I love dodging swarms by 180ing around walls and hearing them slam into my new barricade. I learned that the best course of action when 180ing is to simply swing the stick and keep going in whatever direction your momentum is carrying you until you can reorient yourself. Additionally, the break is a miracle worker once you understand it. The challenge of any control schema is to be intuitive. When you play any game whose focus is on vehicular control you NEVER see a control scheme like the one we have now... and for good reason: it makes advanced handling incredibly difficult. Take for example an E-Brake tap to intentionally spin the rear end of the vehicle around or go into a drift: currently this maneuver is all but impossible because the setup of the throttle / steering linked controls makes it unmanageable to point your wheels in a contra-direction while directing the throttle. For reference: Basic E-Brake Left / Right hand swing maneuver with Drift Conversion With momentum in a forward direction follow the given steps. Turn the front wheels of the vehicle in the opposite direction you want the rear end to pivot (Possible Pull your E-Brake (not possible) With brake pulled, quickly turn front wheels full opposite of original turn. (Impossible due to forward acceleration as you steer with current controls) Release E-Brake Apply gas quickly for maximum pivot. Tap to ensure you do not roll over. Continue tapping to drift. That is why segregated steering, acceleration, and breaking, are necessary for proper vehicular control.
Zev Caldari Crux Special Tasks Group Gallente Federation 94	Posted - 2012.07.18 20:30:00 - [17] - Quote Leovarian L Lavitz wrote: I have to say that I LOVE the LAV controls. At first I didn't like them, but once I put the nanofibers and shield resist/extend on my ride I was rocking it. Took a bit to get used to it, but I love dodging swarms by 180ing around walls and hearing them slam into my new barricade. I learned that the best course of action when 180ing is to simply swing the stick and keep going in whatever direction your momentum is carrying you until you can reorient yourself. I might be zipping along at 100mph, then notice a swarm of missiles chasing me (my gunner would say something if I had one), and then snap around one of the main bunker buildings into a 360, and keep going in reverse to get a visual on the missiles without losing a beat. Full throttle reverse over a dune and hear the satisfying boom boom babooom of the missiles hitting the dune top as I set off for another run. Additionally, the break is a miracle worker once you understand it. EDIT: Getting passengers is easier if you use the (S) shield transporter. Give it a try. xD EDIT AGAIN: Bob and weave works too, keeping your gunner and passengers alive is a key job of the driver. If you are getting shot at, make an attempt to make your LAV zig-zag to keep your guys from being sniped/instagibbed and killed by ARs. If all else, 180 into reverse and use the front of your LAV to protect them as you disengage. Some good advice in here about driving. Also, thanks to those who responded to my "sniping dropship gunners" post. I guess I must have been hitting the gun in the past then, I'll try again this beta weekend! I also agree that they need to make throttle and wheel separate, other than that I'm pleased with the controls.
Darkz azurr Royal Uhlans Amarr Empire 105	Posted - 2012.07.19 01:18:00 - [18] - Quote is there currently a way to look behind you when you reverse, if i remember correctly you cant, is that correct ? i think halo's warthog was really fun to drive. good post op
Norbar Recturus Algintal Core Gallente Federation 119	Posted - 2012.07.19 12:59:00 - [19] - Quote No, the most rotation you can get to view your surroundings is about 60 degrees in either direction. Even when you're driving in reverse you can' exactly see where you're going.


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